The worrying market, for new old stock cigar bands

[99call]

I love the fact that cigar band collecting is a passion for some people, and supremely rare bands can command big money.  but who needs 100x bundles of NOS Cuban Davidoff/Dunhill?  for $1000 a pop (that all sold!)

I enjoy snooping on lots of collectors on instagram etc.  But increasingly you, see super fresh looking cigars, with vintage gold bands with zero green blemishes on the gold foils.  Or icy white Davidoff bands, that show not a hint of being trapped in a box for 40yrs?

Cant help but feel these bundles of bands are not going to be lovingly placed into collectors albums,   but find another more murky end.

[Puros Y Vino]

I've seen these. The potential for nefarious use is there. Had to know if these are legit or good runs of counterfeits. Several years back there was a vein of Dunhill Cabinettas that turned out to be fakes. The band's were almost perfect but  for many the proof was in the smoking as they had zero qualities associated with older tobacco.  There's lots of cool Pre-Embargo bands online too.  

[Chibearsv]

I don't know anything about label collectors but it seems odd that a collector would buy labels by the hundreds or thousands.  Maybe they'll only be used to make decorative wall art?  Doubt it.  

Another potential demonstration that CCs are definitely a "buyer beware" marketplace.

[99call]

14 minutes ago, bundwallah said:

There's lots of cool Pre-Embargo bands online too. 

Yep, sadly those who removed them from the cigars in bags of 25, somehow managed to do so with surgical skill.  It would be handy if there was sort of "collectors code" where they snipped off a tiny portion of the previously glued area. 

[BrightonCorgi]

Well, box is still needed to complete the deception.

I see similar high prices for some empty wine bottles.  They're being "reconditioned".

[99call]

Just now, BrightonCorgi said:

Well, box is still needed to complete the deception.

Yep, I have seen this before too,  The useful thing about wood grain, is it's effectively a fingerprint.   Hilariously I have seen someone before trying to sell a full box of Pre-embargo Petronio before.  Real bands, real box......only problem was I had seen the exact box sold as empty months before.    

 

[99call]

One month this empty box is on the market

[99call]

A couple of months later,  exact same box, magically full. 

I did everything I could to stop this sale, both contacting the platform, and the seller......but it all fell on deaf ears....   someone got burned.

 

[Lunettesman]

30 minutes ago, 99call said:

A couple of months later,  exact same box, magically full. 

I did everything I could to stop this sale, both contacting the platform, and the seller......but it all fell on deaf ears....   someone got burned.

 

Pretty sick. Some years ago there were one internet site where the dude was selling everything, from custom counterfeit stickers to cigars band. 

[99call]

39 minutes ago, Lunettesman said:

Pretty sick

Yup

[Cigar Salute]

5 hours ago, Lunettesman said:

Pretty sick. Some years ago there were one internet site where the dude was selling everything, from custom counterfeit stickers to cigars band. 

Just fakes?  that was something else.  I contacted Ali Baba trying to get those BHK boxes from China that were being sold as "Humidors" removed from the site.  Also seemed to fall on deaf ears.  This shit with the bands though....no bueno.  I can't see anyone paying such a high price for them unless they planned on using them to make exponentially more money.  

[El Presidente]

10 hours ago, 99call said:

Yep, I have seen this before too,  The useful thing about wood grain, is it's effectively a fingerprint.   Hilariously I have seen someone before trying to sell a full box of Pre-embargo Petronio before.  Real bands, real box......only problem was I had seen the exact box sold as empty months before.    

 

Great work mate 

It is so important to understand that you buy the seller. 

[HopeUgood]

Amazing detective work !!

[99call]

12 hours ago, El Presidente said:

It is so important to understand that you buy the seller. 

A good point,  but it also raises (for me anyway) a level of reality placed on what it means to be a collector, and the responsibilities connected too that

Being in the Conservation/Museum industry, I always get a little pissed off when people (whom have little to no knowledge or expertise) buy things for crazy amounts of cash, that turn out to be either A, restored by unscrupulous practicioners that have left no sign of their work, or B, straight out fakes. 

Yes, it's sad that both of these things go on,   but if buyers are honest with themselves, if they seek to play big boy games, they should also do big boys research. For example collectors of ceramics, will often be angry at themselves for not spotting crack/chip repairs, as opposed to being angry with the dealer that sold it to them, or the person who carried out the repair. 

Far too often in life people think cold hard cash exempts against failure,  but the reality is, relationships with good honest specialists who value their reputation over profit, and personal knowledge of the subject, etc etc is a much better immunisation against being swindled

[GVan]

99call -- Well said !!!

[Puros Y Vino]

On 3/29/2020 at 8:39 AM, 99call said:

Yep, sadly those who removed them from the cigars in bags of 25, somehow managed to do so with surgical skill.  It would be handy if there was sort of "collectors code" where they snipped off a tiny portion of the previously glued area. 

As these are collectible on their own,I dislike the idea of defacing the bands. However, if one could markup the inside part with some kind of stamp, that may reveal who the bad players are. Mind you, it will be post sale unless you can convince the seller to remove a band on video before purchase.  But that can be easily faked too.  With some old boxes that I don't keep, I strikeout the box code and write in "BURNED" in marker.  That gives me some consolation that an old box I've given away cant be easily used to fool someone.

[99call]

BIG RED FLAG FOH!!!.

I cannot be 100% sure as yet, but this box of Dunhill Mojito (thats currently on the market) looks to be a filled, into a previously sold empty box.   My guess being Vegas Robaina Familiars, rebanded with NOS Dunhill labels off ebay. 

The original advert for this box appears to have been put up somewhere on the 15 Jan 2020  "Vacio"  meaning empty in Spanish

[99call]

This is the current advert for €12,000!!!!!!!!   with exactly the same markings on the box.   BUYER BEWARE!!

[Lunettesman]

No way???

[armada_crew]

Thanks @99call, all very education to say the least! Great work identifying that.

[99call]

9 hours ago, Lunettesman said:

No way???

Sadly, I raised the question to the seller, and they told me to get out their face.   no surprise there. 

[Connoisseur Kim]

Sadly, I raised the question to the seller, and they told me to get out their face.   no surprise there. 

I'm not an Ebay user, but you can try contact Ebay if dodgy seller still insists to sell fakes. This Dunhill looks way too new to me even in my eyes (no tobacco oil stain on bands which is one of the noticable things from vintage cigars)!

나의 SM-N950N 의 Tapatalk에서 보냄

[99call]

1 minute ago, Connoisseur Kim said:

Ebay

not Ebay sadly

[Connoisseur Kim]

not Ebay sadly

What a shame! I thought this dodgy seller is on Ebay. Is this website in fake Dunhill pic has scammer alert system?

 

[NSXCIGAR]

Vintage cigars became a wealthy man's game a while ago. Now more than ever provenance is key. And provenance is expensive. If you really want the real thing you're going to have to pay top dollar for it from a reputable dealer with a substantial paper trail. Cigars are just too easy to fake.

The good news is that cigars in this category will almost certainly gain value.