Temperature for storage

[markmcc]

So, my coolerdor operates perfectly in the basement over the summer -- 65 degrees F and 65% humidity. 

But as the temp drops here, it gets colder in my basement, and therefore in the cooler. It runs about 61-62 degrees in the winter. I am assuming that won't be a big deal, but wanted to ask the more experienced here if I should be trying to find a way to get it a little warmer.

[The Squiggler]

I've never understood why there's such a tight threshold on the low end of the suggested temp range.  If you keep your cigars in temperatures above 70F you run the obvious risks of mold and hatching larvae, but on the lower end there seem to be few to zero serious drawbacks as long as you're not keeping them on ice.  Plus, it's easy enough to warm up a cigar if you find that low temps cause burn problems.  I could imagine the temperature having a potential effect on flavor development over 20 years if you were doing some serious aging, but other than that... ?

[sho671]

25 minutes ago, Alpha said:

As long as the moisture content in the cigar is kept at a 'good' level?  I'm not a cigar scientist, but I think if you lower the temperature at the same RH%, your cigars may get too wet.  Once you get to much lower temperatures, I'd imagine that it may become tricky to find and maintain the right RH%.  @PigFish has plenty of articles / posts on this topic (pls correct me if my science is wrong!)

The same RH level at a lower temp means less moisture (absolute humidity) in the air so drier cigar. Colder air can't hold as much moisture as warmer air. 

And I've watched @PigFish's video, his understanding of relative humidity, absolute humidity, temperature and their relationship is lacking.

[The Squiggler]

14 minutes ago, Alpha said:

I think if you lower the temperature at the same RH%, your cigars may get too wet.  Once you get to much lower temperatures, I'd imagine that it may become tricky to find and maintain the right RH%.  @PigFish has plenty of articles / posts on this topic (pls correct me if my science is wrong!)

I think as long as you are monitoring your RH and it remains at the appropriate level, the temp is not something worth worrying about as much (assuming you're keeping your cigars somewhere inside a climate controlled house and the shifts in temp aren't too extreme or frequent).  As far as temp dips/spikes causing shifts in RH, I don't know, but once again, if you're monitoring your RH and it's okay, the temps could probably drop to 60F or 55F without doing any real damage.  Generally, it seems like consistency is probably most important, and I've heard that spontaneous shifts can be especially problematic, but I doubt a 5 degree dip would have much of an effect.

[rcarlson]

6 minutes ago, sho671 said:

The same RH level at a lower temp means less moisture (absolute humidity) in the air so drier cigar. Colder air can't hold as much moisture as warmer air. 

And I've watched @PigFish's video, his understanding of humidity is lacking.

Oh shit.  Shots fired.  

Pass the popcorn . . . 

[The Squiggler]

5 minutes ago, sho671 said:

The same RH level at a lower temp means less moisture (absolute humidity) in the air so drier cigar. Colder air can't hold as much moisture as warmer air.

So it's something to do with the way relative humidity is measured vs actual moisture?  I've often wondered this.  If the moisture capacity of 40F air vs the capacity of 65F air is drastically different, then 65%RH in those two environments would presumably differ to the same degree.

[BoliDan]

44 minutes ago, The Squiggler said:

I think as long as you are monitoring your RH and it remains at the appropriate level, the temp is not something worth worrying about as much (assuming you're keeping your cigars somewhere inside a climate controlled house and the shifts in temp aren't too extreme or frequent).  As far as temp dips/spikes causing shifts in RH, I don't know, but once again, if you're monitoring your RH and it's okay, the temps could probably drop to 60F or 55F without doing any real damage.  Generally, it seems like consistency is probably most important, and I've heard that spontaneous shifts can be especially problematic, but I doubt a 5 degree dip would have much of an effect.

Rh at lower temps hold much less moisture. 80% rh at 40 degree F would be like 45RH at 70F and your cigars will dry up. Humidity is relative to temperature. The colder you get you will need to increase rh over 70% to maintain ideal conditions. Id go fo over 70% if i was in the 50 degree threshold.

rH is meaningless without a coresponding temperature.

[bpm32]

This subject comes up every so often on the forum and it's always contentious. Not sure why, but I think it has to do with the terminology that people use. Some of the jargon has particular meaning in some fields versus others.

[joeypots]

I was going to leave my cigars in my home for an extended away period this winter. I asked if it was OK to leave them at 40 degrees F. The answer came back quickly, no. Don't do it . Mold was posted out as one hazard, overly dry cigars as another. I bought a huge cooler and filled it with cigars and beads. It lives in a dark closet at a friends house at about 65degrees F and 62%RH. So far so good. 

[The Squiggler]

2 minutes ago, bpm32 said:

This subject comes up every so often on the forum and it's always contentious. Not sure why, but I think it has to do with the terminology that people use. Some of the jargon has particular meaning in some fields versus others.

It seems like most of us are arriving at the same conclusion anyway:  relative humidity = % of moisture capacity, which increases as temp increases; therefore same RH at higher temps = more moisture

[BuzzArd]

53 minutes ago, rcarlson said:

Oh shit.  Shots fired.  

Pass the popcorn . . . 

Will take more than the comment above to get Ray’s hackles up.   He's done the research.  If someone doesn’t believe him I promise you he won’t care. 

[sho671]

4 minutes ago, The Squiggler said:

So it's something to do with the way relative humidity is measured vs actual moisture?  I've often wondered this.  If the moisture capacity of 40F air vs the capacity of 65F air is drastically different, then 65%RH in those two environments would presumably differ to the same degree.

Relative humidity is the percentage of how much moisture the air can hold. Absolute humidity is the actual amount of moisture the air can hold that is represented by g of H20/m3 of air or g of H20/kg of air. Relative humidity doesn't mean much unless it is associated with a specific temperature. A lot of people tend to only reference the RH %, but listing a RH % without a temperature is arbitrary and useless as a stand alone reference.

Here's an example that will hopefully help you understand things. Imagine you have two containers, one of them can hold (full capacity of) 1 gallon and the other can hold 1/2 (half) a gallon. In this example the 1 gallon container will represent higher temperature because it can "hold" more water and the 1/2 (half) gallon container will represent cooler temperature because it "holds" less water. If you fill the 1 gallon container with 1/2 a gallon or half way of water, it will be 50% full. The 50% is the relative humidity and the 1/2 gallon of water is the absolute humidity. Now lets say the "temperature" decreases but the amount of water does not. So that means we move the 1/2 gallon of water from the 1 gallon container (higher temp) to the 1/2 gallon container (cooler temp). The 1/2 gallon of water completely fills the 1/2 gallon container, which represents 100% saturation. The relative humidity is now 100%, but the absolute humidity (amount of water) is still the same 1/2 gallon of water. This example is assuming a sealed system in which no moisture is lost with a decrease in temperature. In real life there would be a corresponding loss of moisture (absolute humidity) with a decrease in temperature.

Here is an example with real numbers and figures:

100% RH at 40 degrees F equals 5.54 g/kg and 65% RH at 40 degrees F equals 3.6 g/kg.

100% RH at 65 degrees F equals 13.17 k/kg and 65% RH at 65 degrees F equals 8.56 g/kg.

100% RH at 66 degrees F equals 13.63 k/kg and 65% RH at 66 degrees F equals 8.86 g/kg.

Even though the relative humidity is constant at 65%, there is over 2x more water in the air at 65 degrees F vs 40 degrees F. Even at 100% saturation at 40 degrees the absolute humidity is still less than 65% RH at 65 degrees F. This means that you can't maintain the same absolute humidity at 40 degrees that you had at 65 degrees without the formation of dew and water droplets.

With regards to the absolute humidity differing by to the same degrees, an increase in 1 degree F equates to a ~3% increase in absolute humidity.

[The Squiggler]

2 minutes ago, sho671 said:

100% RH at 40 degrees F equals 5.54 g/kg and 65% RH at 40 degrees F equals 3.6 g/kg.

100% RH at 65 degrees F equals 13.17 k/kg and 65% RH at 65 degrees F equals 8.56 g/kg.

100% RH at 66 degrees F equals 13.63 k/kg and 65% RH at 66 degrees F equals 8.86 g/kg.

nice

[The Squiggler]

4 minutes ago, sho671 said:

With regards to the absolute humidity differing by to the same degrees, an increase in 1 degree F equates to a ~3% increase in absolute humidity.

by 'same degree' I really just meant 'drastically', but the difference between 65% of one figure vs 65% of a drastically different figure would obviously = drastic.  This brings another question to mind, which hadn't occurred to me until now.  In a closed/sealed environment such as a coolidor/tupperdor/wineador etc, a drop in temperature (causing a drop in the moisture capacity of the air) would intuitively lead to a precipitation of moisture onto every surface within that container.  This could actually cause the overall moisture of the cigars within to increase, at least on the short term.  Thoughts?

[bpm32]

5 minutes ago, The Squiggler said:

It seems like most of us are arriving at the same conclusion anyway:  relative humidity = % of moisture capacity, which increases as temp increases; therefore same RH at higher temps = more moisture

Yeah, that's true, but how does that relate to how much water is in my cigars? What is the relationship between uptake of water at a given temperature and humidity? We know anecdotally that around 65 degrees and 65%RH works great, but I live next to the ocean and my house is 80%RH. What should I do? What if I move to Denver or Mexico City? What is the relationship between pressure and my cigars' hygroscopicity? 

Just stirring the pot....?

[BoliDan]

10 minutes ago, sho671 said:

Relative humidity is the percentage of how much moisture the air can hold. Absolute humidity is the actual amount of moisture the air can hold that is represented by g of H20/m3 of air or g of H20/kg of air. Relative humidity doesn't mean much unless it is associated with a specific temperature. A lot of people tend to only reference the RH %, but listing a RH % without a temperature is arbitrary and useless as a stand alone reference.

Here's an example that will hopefully help you understand things. Imagine you have two containers, one of them can hold (full capacity of) 1 gallon and the other can hold 1/2 (half) a gallon. In this example the 1 gallon container will represent higher temperature because it can "hold" more water and the 1/2 (half) gallon container will represent cooler temperature because it "holds" less water. If you fill the 1 gallon container with 1/2 a gallon or half way of water, it will be 50% full. The 50% is the relative humidity and the 1/2 gallon of water is the absolute humidity. Now lets say the "temperature" decreases but the amount of water does not. So that means we move the 1/2 gallon of water from the 1 gallon container (higher temp) to the 1/2 gallon container (cooler temp). The 1/2 gallon of water completely fills the 1/2 gallon container, which represents 100% saturation. The relative humidity is now 100%, but the absolute humidity (amount of water) is still the same 1/2 gallon of water. This example is assuming a sealed system in which no moisture is lost with a decrease in temperature. In real life there would be a corresponding loss of moisture (absolute humidity) with a decrease in temperature.

Here is an example with real numbers and figures:

100% RH at 40 degrees F equals 5.54 g/kg and 65% RH at 40 degrees F equals 3.6 g/kg.

100% RH at 65 degrees F equals 13.17 k/kg and 65% RH at 65 degrees F equals 8.56 g/kg.

100% RH at 66 degrees F equals 13.63 k/kg and 65% RH at 66 degrees F equals 8.86 g/kg.

Even though the relative humidity is constant at 65%, there is over 2x more water in the air at 65 degrees F vs 40 degrees F. Even at 100% saturation at 40 degrees the absolute humidity is still less than 65% RH at 65 degrees F. This means that you can't maintain the same absolute humidity at 40 degrees that you had at 65 degrees without the formation of dew and water droplets.

With regards to the absolute humidity differing by to the same degrees, an increase in 1 degree F equates to a ~3% increase in absolute humidity.

Much more insightful than my answer. Thanks Sho. Its all a balancing act. We have a more reliable idea of what to keep rH at from 60-70F. I go over 70F so i drop rH down to 62%. I never had a beetle problem (knock on wood) and im not worried about mold as long as im under 65% at those temps.

[BoliDan]

4 minutes ago, bpm32 said:

Yeah, that's true, but how does that relate to how much water is in my cigars? What is the relationship between uptake of water at a given temperature and humidity? We know anecdotally that around 65 degrees and 65%RH works great, but I live next to the ocean and my house is 80%RH. What should I do? What if I move to Denver or Mexico City? What is the relationship between pressure and my cigars' hygroscopicity? 

Just stirring the pot....?

I live in denver. Its a lot easier to increase humidity than decrease so i just isolate everything to trap the humidity. My house is seriously around 5rh in winter with forced air running. When i open my display humidor to grab a stick my humidity drops below 45% by the time i close it. but it doesnt matter. It will get back to normal in a couple hours. If i lived in florida id probably invest in a dehumidifier for the room i kept my cigars in just because every time i opened a tupperdor or whatever im getting excess water vapor which is harder to adjust.

[sho671]

6 minutes ago, The Squiggler said:

by 'same degree' I really just meant 'drastically', but the difference between 65% of one figure vs 65% of a drastically different figure would obviously = drastic.  This brings another question to mind, which hadn't occurred to me until now.  In a closed/sealed environment such as a coolidor/tupperdor/wineador etc, a drop in temperature (causing a drop in the moisture capacity of the air) would intuitively lead to a precipitation of moisture onto every surface within that container.  This could actually cause the overall moisture of the cigars within to increase, at least on the short term.  Thoughts?

Theoretically, yes. Cooling to a degree with a 100% saturation point that is less than the absolute humidity at the previous temp without a loss in moisture/absolute humidity will result in condensation. You've probably witnessed this if you've ever put warm food into the fridge and had moisture accumulation on the lid. The problem is that for this to happen to your sealed tupperdor/coolidor it would have to be a fairly significant temperature decrease and there can't be anything in there that would absorb any moisture. So no cedar, no Boveda, no cigars. In most cases, those things would tend to absorb the excess moisture and would also have to be 100% saturated before condensation appears. If the container was cooled rapidly and the cedar, cigars and Boveda haven't had time to absorb the moisture, then condensation might appear.

[The Squiggler]

38 minutes ago, bpm32 said:

What is the relationship between pressure and my cigars' hygroscopicity? 

This is an interesting question, and the best answer I could find is as follows:  The effect of temperature on saturation pressure (moisture capacity) is large.  Mathematically, it is what is called 'Arrhenius dependence' (exponential of 1/T)--in other words the effect is quite strong.  The effect of *air pressure on saturation is generally linear, but as you go higher and higher in altitude (up into the mountains, for example) a faster than linear drop in total pressure occurs.  This makes it difficult to clearly define the relationship between atmospheric pressure and saturation pressure.

[The Squiggler]

4 minutes ago, sho671 said:

those things would tend to absorb the excess moisture and would also have to be 100% saturated before condensation appears

This is what I was getting at.  So, while decreases in temperature decrease the capacity of air to hold moisture, thus making a cold environment more arid at the same RH, a rapid downshift in temperature can actually cause porous items, such as cigars, to wick up moisture that was previously in the air, thus increasing their moisture content.

[bpm32]

9 minutes ago, BoliDan said:

I live in denver. Its a lot easier to increase humidity than decrease so i just isolate everything to trap the humidity. My house is seriously around 5rh in winter with forced air running. When i open my display humidor to grab a stick my humidity drops below 45% by the time i close it. but it doesnt matter. It will get back to normal in a couple hours. If i lived in florida id probably invest in a dehumidifier for the room i kept my cigars in just because every time i opened a tupperdor or whatever im getting excess water vapor which is harder to adjust.

Yeah, but I'd assume your cigars would attract (and hold) fewer water molecules than mine due to the lower pressure up there. 

[BoliDan]

14 minutes ago, bpm32 said:

Yeah, but I'd assume your cigars would attract (and hold) fewer water molecules than mine due to the lower pressure up there. 

Oh, Air  Pressure. Yeah, I have no idea on that one. I can say when I bring my cigars with me to sea level I dont notice much change over a couple weeks so I imagine it is negligible. For long term storage, I think as long as they arent exposed to too much air flow, it is at retaining enough. Or at least that is what I'll tell myself.

[sho671]

3 minutes ago, The Squiggler said:

This is what I was getting at.  So, while decreases in temperature decrease the capacity of air to hold moisture, thus making a cold environment more arid at the same RH, a rapid downshift in temperature can actually cause porous items, such as cigars, to wick up moisture that was previously in the air, thus increasing their moisture content.

In theory yes, but to have a completely sealed system (I'm talking space suits) is hard to come by. Metal, plastic and rubber are all porous to some degree, meaning that gas exchange can occur. Glass is not porous but rubber is usually used to create seals between glass surfaces.

[SenorPerfecto]

When you look at your LGCs and she's wearing a fur coat, it's too cold!

[ha_banos]

But we all use two way humidification systems right? E.g. Boveda or RH beads or some such.

This changes the game right?