Cohiba Talisman - Dark vs Light Wrapper

[SigmundChurchill]

I know I mentioned this in the past, but I smoked one of the dark wrapper Talismans the other day, and these Talismans with the light wrappers taste so different to me.  The light wrapper ones are so much more enjoyable.  It is not just a matter of different shades of the same wrapper either.  They are clearly two different types of wrappers.

The dark ones have a predominately “EL flavor”, that I seem to get in most EL’s regardless of the Marca.  But the light ones are pure Cohiba.  Cohiba on steroids would best describe it.  The intense flavor in this cigar is blowing me away right now.

And the ironic thing is, I chose to open this box now, because I thought the “18” made it the least marketable if I ever want to sell some. The rest all have 17 box codes.  But if I ever do sell some, it wont be the light wrapper boxes.  I enjoy them too much to let go of them.

All of the light wrapper ones that I have seen are UAO, but not all UAO are light wrappers.

From my collection, it seems the pattern is, that they started using the light wrappers on UAO boxes some time in Sept 17 and used them at least through January of 18.  Or perhaps, I just got lucky with those particular boxes?  I don’t know.

2 X UAO AGO 17 - Both dark.

2 X UAO SEP 17 - One dark, One light.

UAO OCT 17 - Light

2 X UAO DIC 17 - Both light

UAO ENE 18 - Light

2 X LRG DIC 17 - Both dark

[JohnS]

I especially appreciate feedback like this @SigmundChurchill. Is there any chance you can take a side-by-side photo of the two different cigar wrapper shades?

[SigmundChurchill]

7 minutes ago, JohnS said:

I especially appreciate feedback like this @SigmundChurchill. Is there any chance you can take a side-by-side photo of the two different cigar wrapper shades?

Absolutely.   I’m on my way out to golf and then a BBQ. Will do it tonight when I get back.

[Homer]

I think that many of us really would like to see pics of your humidors! Please.

[LLC]

I will agree that I prefer the lighter wrapper on Cohiba’s but the dark rustic wrappers on the 1966’s made for an epic cigar.


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[Islandboy]

Can’t speak to the light wrapper variety, my BRE Dic 17 box is dark as night, and kinda fugly looking. I tried one about 6 months ago to get a baseline...wasn’t impressed at all, kinda disappointed really. Very little Cohiba dna. Letting the rest sit for a long time before I dive back in.

[SigmundChurchill]

Here are the comparison pictures.  And even though you can clearly see the difference, it is even more pronounced in real life.  A little of the contrast is lost in photos.  The light ones, look similar to regular Cohiba’s.  The dark ones, look like dark, veiny, maduroish EL’s.  And they taste like two completely different cigars.

In the middle, is one from the box I just opened, UAO ENE 18.  The dark one on the left is UAO AGO 17,  The dark  one on the right is LRG DIC 17.

And here is the UAO ENE 18 on top of the box of LRG DIC 17.

[El Presidente]

6 hours ago, SigmundChurchill said:

From my collection, it seems the pattern is, that they started using the light wrappers on UAO boxes some time in Sept 17 and used them at least through January of 18.  Or perhaps, I just got lucky with those particular boxes?  I don’t know.

The initial release was plagued by dark thick wrapper.  Not all by any means. Even from the initial H&F launch, the wrapper commentary was all over the place.  The dark wrapper quality certainly improved as time went by. 

In the batches that I received, there was an intriguing mix of wrappers within the shipments from Colorado to Oscuro. Colorado was still a rarity. 

 

[SigmundChurchill]

5 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

The initial release was plagued by dark thick wrapper.  Not all by any means. Even from the initial H&F launch, the wrapper commentary was all over the place.  The dark wrapper quality certainly improved as time went by. 

In the batches that I received, there was an intriguing mix of wrappers within the shipments from Colorado to Oscuro. Colorado was still a rarity. 

 

Yes.  One of my AGO 17’s is H&F, and dark Oscuro.  Still beautiful looking, but I assume they taste like the other dark ones.  As long as I can remember, there has been debate over how much the wrapper adds to the flavor of the cigar.  Assuming these are all the same blend, this tells me that it accounts for quite a bit.

[SenorPerfecto]

Never seen ones that light.

[SigmundChurchill]

I want to start this (possibly) controversial post by stating, the only thing I claim to be an expert in, is my profession.  I don't claim to be a cigar expert.  When I smoke a cigar, I don't usually taste apricot with hints of gooseberry, and essence of myrrh.  To me, a cigar tastes nutty, or fruity, or floral, etc.  So maybe my palate isn’t as sophisticated as some people.  And I don't really care, because I know what I like and what I don't like, and that is really all that is important to me.  

The only claim I do make is that I have smoked many cigars over the past 30 years, and that I have smoked everything from Dunhills and Davidoffs, special humidor cigars, etc, to inexpensive, regular production cigars.

This morning, I smoked one of my Cohiba 1966, 2011 ELs.  A cigar with a lot of hype that many people rave about.  But to me, it tastes very similar to most other ELs, with those dark wrappers, which all seem to have a predominately toasty, coffee flavor to me.  They start out with this flavor, and they finish with this flavor, so they are rather one dimensional.  They are pleasant cigars, that I would be happy to pay $10 or $15 for, but not nearly worth the premium that we pay for them.  

I found this to be the case right from the beginning.  A time when I bought all of the ELs, because they were new, and exciting, and “limited”.  And I still find this to be the case now.  When there is a lot of hype about “this EL” or “that EL”, I buy a box thinking “This time, it will be different.”  But it rarely ever is.  I want to love them.  I try to love them.  But I am almost always disappointed.  With a very few exceptions, they all have that similar flavor profile.

If I buy a Cohiba, I want it to taste like a Cohiba.  If I buy a RyJ, I want it to taste like a RyJ.  To me, the ELs should just be their own Marca, and be done with it.  Don’t call a cigar a Cohiba EL, and have it taste the same as a Partagas EL, or a RyJ EL.

As to other cigars we pay a premium on, I love many of the Reservas/Gran Reservas.  I love the Coleccion Book cigars.  I love many of the special humidor cigars.  To me, these are often some of the best versions of the Marca they are supposed to be.  When I smoke them, I am often blown away by the amazing flavors coming out of these cigars.  They tase like what they are supposed to taste like, only, in their best versions of themselves.

That is what I am getting from these light wrappered Talismans.  They are more like Coleccion Book cigars than ELs.  I first went through one of the dark boxes, and was underwhelmed, as they tasted like ELs to me.  Then I went through one of the light boxes, and was so amazingly surprised about how much I liked them.  Then, another dark box, with the same experience as the first one.  And now I am on one of the light boxes, 2 cigars in, and I loved them both.  Some of the best cigars I have ever smoked.

So back to the 1966 I smoked this morning.  As much as I tried to love it, sadly, it wasn’t much different than the dark Talismans I have been smoking.  I really tried to pick up Cohiba flavors, but the toasty, coffee flavors drowned out anything I thought I might have faintly tasted.  It was just a pleasant, one dimensional cigar.

[jeremiep89]

I want to start this (possibly) controversial post by stating, the only thing I claim to be an expert in, is my profession.  I don't claim to be a cigar expert.  When I smoke a cigar, I don't usually taste apricot with hints of gooseberry, and essence of myrrh.  To me, a cigar tastes nutty, or fruity, or floral, etc.  So maybe my palate isn’t as sophisticated as some people.  And I don't really care, because I know what I like and what I don't like, and that is really all that is important to me.  
The only claim I do make is that I have smoked many cigars over the past 30 years, and that I have smoked everything from Dunhills and Davidoffs, special humidor cigars, etc, to inexpensive, regular production cigars.
This morning, I smoked one of my Cohiba 1966, 2011 ELs.  A cigar with a lot of hype that many people rave about.  But to me, it tastes very similar to most other ELs, with those dark wrappers, which all seem to have a predominately toasty, coffee flavor to me.  They start out with this flavor, and they finish with this flavor, so they are rather one dimensional.  They are pleasant cigars, that I would be happy to pay $10 or $15 for, but not nearly worth the premium that we pay for them.  
I found this to be the case right from the beginning.  A time when I bought all of the ELs, because they were new, and exciting, and “limited”.  And I still find this to be the case now.  When there is a lot of hype about “this EL” or “that EL”, I buy a box thinking “This time, it will be different.”  But it rarely ever is.  I want to love them.  I try to love them.  But I am almost always disappointed.  With a very few exceptions, they all have that similar flavor profile.
If I buy a Cohiba, I want it to taste like a Cohiba.  If I buy a RyJ, I want it to taste like a RyJ.  To me, the ELs should just be their own Marca, and be done with it.  Don’t call a cigar a Cohiba EL, and have it taste the same as a Partagas EL, or a RyJ EL.
As to other cigars we pay a premium on, I love many of the Reservas/Gran Reservas.  I love the Coleccion Book cigars.  I love many of the special humidor cigars.  To me, these are often some of the best versions of the Marca they are supposed to be.  When I smoke them, I am often blown away by the amazing flavors coming out of these cigars.  They tase like what they are supposed to taste like, only, in their best versions of themselves.
That is what I am getting from these light wrappered Talismans.  They are more like Coleccion Book cigars than ELs.  I first went through one of the dark boxes, and was underwhelmed, as they tasted like ELs to me.  Then I went through one of the light boxes, and was so amazingly surprised about how much I liked them.  Then, another dark box, with the same experience as the first one.  And now I am on one of the light boxes, 2 cigars in, and I loved them both.  Some of the best cigars I have ever smoked.
So back to the 1966 I smoked this morning.  As much as I tried to love it, sadly, it wasn’t much different than the dark Talismans I have been smoking.  I really tried to pick up Cohiba flavors, but the toasty, coffee flavors drowned out anything I thought I might have faintly tasted.  It was just a pleasant, one dimensional cigar.

I don’t think I’ve ever related more or agreed more with a post. Well put together!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mbflash80]

9 hours ago, SigmundChurchill said:

I want to start this (possibly) controversial post by stating, the only thing I claim to be an expert in, is my profession.  I don't claim to be a cigar expert.  When I smoke a cigar, I don't usually taste apricot with hints of gooseberry, and essence of myrrh.  To me, a cigar tastes nutty, or fruity, or floral, etc.  So maybe my palate isn’t as sophisticated as some people.  And I don't really care, because I know what I like and what I don't like, and that is really all that is important to me.  

The only claim I do make is that I have smoked many cigars over the past 30 years, and that I have smoked everything from Dunhills and Davidoffs, special humidor cigars, etc, to inexpensive, regular production cigars.

This morning, I smoked one of my Cohiba 1966, 2011 ELs.  A cigar with a lot of hype that many people rave about.  But to me, it tastes very similar to most other ELs, with those dark wrappers, which all seem to have a predominately toasty, coffee flavor to me.  They start out with this flavor, and they finish with this flavor, so they are rather one dimensional.  They are pleasant cigars, that I would be happy to pay $10 or $15 for, but not nearly worth the premium that we pay for them.  

I found this to be the case right from the beginning.  A time when I bought all of the ELs, because they were new, and exciting, and “limited”.  And I still find this to be the case now.  When there is a lot of hype about “this EL” or “that EL”, I buy a box thinking “This time, it will be different.”  But it rarely ever is.  I want to love them.  I try to love them.  But I am almost always disappointed.  With a very few exceptions, they all have that similar flavor profile.

If I buy a Cohiba, I want it to taste like a Cohiba.  If I buy a RyJ, I want it to taste like a RyJ.  To me, the ELs should just be their own Marca, and be done with it.  Don’t call a cigar a Cohiba EL, and have it taste the same as a Partagas EL, or a RyJ EL.

As to other cigars we pay a premium on, I love many of the Reservas/Gran Reservas.  I love the Coleccion Book cigars.  I love many of the special humidor cigars.  To me, these are often some of the best versions of the Marca they are supposed to be.  When I smoke them, I am often blown away by the amazing flavors coming out of these cigars.  They tase like what they are supposed to taste like, only, in their best versions of themselves.

That is what I am getting from these light wrappered Talismans.  They are more like Coleccion Book cigars than ELs.  I first went through one of the dark boxes, and was underwhelmed, as they tasted like ELs to me.  Then I went through one of the light boxes, and was so amazingly surprised about how much I liked them.  Then, another dark box, with the same experience as the first one.  And now I am on one of the light boxes, 2 cigars in, and I loved them both.  Some of the best cigars I have ever smoked.

So back to the 1966 I smoked this morning.  As much as I tried to love it, sadly, it wasn’t much different than the dark Talismans I have been smoking.  I really tried to pick up Cohiba flavors, but the toasty, coffee flavors drowned out anything I thought I might have faintly tasted.  It was just a pleasant, one dimensional cigar.

Very similar to my experiences...i have always enjoyed ELs with lighter wrappers more than the almost oscuro versions...those have the same pungent flavora across marcas...they arent bad...just predictable. 

[blank]

Great insight into the marketing B/S of the EL's . Totally agree those dark wrappers all taste same, put any band on one and you wouldn't know. Lesson learned few years ago, never buy more than couple single's again.

[SigmundChurchill]

7 hours ago, db13 said:

I’m not surprised. Cigars produced and rolled in a communist country - they most likely don’t give a rats tail about the fact that you’re paying more money for something that you expect a superior experience for. This is a country where people make barely enough to feed their families, how could they possibly comprehend or understand people who are well off spending money on cigars let alone on one cigar that costs more than they make in half a years salary.

But then, how do you account for all the high end cigars that they DO get right?  I don't mind paying a premium for those.  As I said, I love the Reservas and Coleccion books, so I don't think it’s that.  With EL’s I think they probably believe they are creating something special, and you can charge more for “special”.  A new shape for the marca, add an oscuro wrapper and a second band, and then charge more for it.  It is marketing.  And since we keep buying them, they keep making more.  

[Fugu]

2 hours ago, SigmundChurchill said:

With EL’s I think they probably make us believe they are creating something special, and you can charge more for “special”

Sorry Elliot, slight correction. They absolutely are aware of the fact they are using sub-par wrapper.

[joeypots]

I'm not an expert by a lot. But I've been at this for a while and the EL program was getting going when I started to smoke Cuban cigars. I remember the R&J Robusto EL, the SD#3 El Partagas, the Monte DC EL, the HDM Pyramid and a bunch of others from the beginning of the century. Back then the talk was about using wrapper leaf from the top of the plant that had been processed, aged, fermented, or what ever you want to call it, so that the deep, rich strong flavors of such top of the plant wrapper could be harnesed. We read here now that good wrapper is thin, smooth and supple. EL wrapper was anything but. Some of those early Els were ok but i think for the most part they were either fireproof or so harsh and tannic that they burned my mouth. Many never came around with time. We also learned that the release was important, like the first release was the best, #2 or 3 not so much. Of course getting or knowing how to get a first release was impossible. So now, 18 years on, we learn that with a with a box of ten Cohiba Talisman we are confronted wit a box of 10 cigars that cost more than $500 US with the assertion that the light color wrapped ones are good. The dark ones? Not so much. Is this a joke? I'm not laughing. 

[SigmundChurchill]

2 hours ago, joeypots said:

I'm not an expert by a lot. But I've been at this for a while and the EL program was getting going when I started to smoke Cuban cigars. I remember the R&J Robusto EL, the SD#3 El Partagas, the Monte DC EL, the HDM Pyramid and a bunch of others from the beginning of the century. Back then the talk was about using wrapper leaf from the top of the plant that had been processed, aged, fermented, or what ever you want to call it, so that the deep, rich strong flavors of such top of the plant wrapper could be harnesed. We read here now that good wrapper is thin, smooth and supple. EL wrapper was anything but. Some of those early Els were ok but i think for the most part they were either fireproof or so harsh and tannic that they burned my mouth. Many never came around with time. We also learned that the release was important, like the first release was the best, #2 or 3 not so much. Of course getting or knowing how to get a first release was impossible. So now, 18 years on, we learn that with a with a box of ten Cohiba Talisman we are confronted wit a box of 10 cigars that cost more than $500 US with the assertion that the light color wrapped ones are good. The dark ones? Not so much. Is this a joke? I'm not laughing. 

You probably don't remember who I am, but I remember sending you one of those early Cohiba ELs, back when it was a new release, when we were on the old CA forum.  I dont remember whether it was the Pyramid or the DC.  You sent me a vase that you made.  I still have it back at my house in Jersey.

No joke, unfortunately.

[joeypots]

5 hours ago, SigmundChurchill said:

You probably don't remember who I am, but I remember sending you one of those early Cohiba ELs, back when it was a new release, when we were on the old CA forum.  I dont remember whether it was the Pyramid or the DC.  You sent me a vase that you made.  I still have it back at my house in Jersey.

No joke, unfortunately.

Been a while, eh? I smoked a MC#2 thats about 6 years old this afternoon. Smooth MC tobacco with that nice tangy taste. I hear thats called citrus now. Any way, I smoked it right down to the nub it was so good. $12 at the most. No more ELs or REs for me. They got some balls selling 10 cigars for more than $500 a box. Fresh! I don’t care if the money matters to the buyer or not, it’s just price gouging and it’ll bite them in the ass someday. 

[SigmundChurchill]

37 minutes ago, joeypots said:

Been a while, eh? I smoked a MC#2 thats about 6 years old this afternoon. Smooth MC tobacco with that nice tangy taste. I hear thats called citrus now. Any way, I smoked it right down to the nub it was so good. $12 at the most. No more ELs or REs for me. They got some balls selling 10 cigars for more than $500 a box. Fresh! I don’t care if the money matters to the buyer or not, it’s just price gouging and it’ll bite them in the ass someday. 

Yeah, been a while.  I went by a different handle back then.

I hear ya.  Some of the best smokes I have had have been regular production, including some Monte 2s, which are always in my regular rotation.  But I will say, a few months ago I bought a Monte 2 GR at Turmeaus cigar shop in London, and damn if it was one of the best Monte 2’s I have smoked.  But special circumstances require special cigars.

As to these cigars, at this point I think I’ll just smoke the light ones and save the dark ones to sell in a few years.  Maybe I’ll recoup some extra money to cover part of the boxes I smoked.

....though I think this thread of mine is counterproductive to that endeavor.?

 

[ha_banos]

Interesting account. Great to see the contrast! How's things a few more years down the line?

I've only tried one Talisman last summer. Dark Maduro like wrapper. Great cigar. Excellent.

I was very apprehensive. Before reading this post just today. I'm a fan of lighter wrappers for sure. And slender RG too for that matter.

But then again the 2016LE Topes is a dark wrapper. And that's a great cigar. Must put them side by side and examine the wrappers...

 

Long ashes.

B.

[SigmundChurchill]

15 hours ago, ha_banos said:

Interesting account. Great to see the contrast! How's things a few more years down the line?

I've only tried one Talisman last summer. Dark Maduro like wrapper. Great cigar. Excellent.

I was very apprehensive. Before reading this post just today. I'm a fan of lighter wrappers for sure. And slender RG too for that matter.

But then again the 2016LE Topes is a dark wrapper. And that's a great cigar. Must put them side by side and examine the wrappers...

 

Long ashes.

B.

I smoke one every 2 or 3 months.  Other than the rough edges smoothing out (regardless of shade), my assessment is still the same.

As to the Topes, I did like them more than most dark EL's.  I think there is a number of factors at play here.  The Trinidad blend may be more amenable to those oscuro wrappers.  Both the Topes and the Talisman are girthy cigars, and one would think with the ratio of wrapper to filler being lower in a wide ring cigar, that the flavor of the blend would be less likely to be overpowered by the flavor of the wrapper.  After all, look at the Trinidad Ingenios.  Still the Trinidad blend, but small ring gauge.  They were a huge flop.  In fact, you can still find them in cigar shops 14 years later.  I think the subtle, elegant Cohiba blend just cant compete on the palate with the boldness of the dark thick wrappers, even at a wide ring gauge.

[Islandboy]

16 hours ago, ha_banos said:

Interesting account. Great to see the contrast! How's things a few more years down the line?

I wondered the same thing, especially given the bump up in quality in recent years, so I ponied up for a second box a few months back - GEM Mar 20. I was hoping for better wrappers than my first original release box - but nope, they’re dark and thick. I haven’t tried one, so I guess one can still hope.

[JohnS]

6 hours ago, SigmundChurchill said:

 I think the subtle, elegant Cohiba blend just cant compete on the palate with the boldness of the dark thick wrappers, even at a wide ring gauge.

Right on! I had a Cohiba Talisman, after four years down, to celebrate the new year a few weeks ago and thought the exact same thing! 👍

[Chibearsv]

Ugh, you guys are forcing me to pull a Talisman out for tonight.  That's ok, I'll take one for the team 😁  I haven't had one for over 6 months and the last I had was fantastic so I'm looking forward to it.  I've got 2 full boxes of darker mottled wrappers as I recall and 1 half box of lighter (but not light) wrappers.  I'll try a darker one tonight and post up a quick review.