Jury Duty

[Guest Nekhyludov]

Last Tuesday, I was seated on a jury in state District Court for the trial of a defendant who was charged with three counts of attempted capital murder of a police officer. It was my first experience serving as a juror.

For six straight days, we heard testimony from police officers and crime scene investigators, watched hours upon hours of body camera footage, listened to hours of recordings of phone calls with police negotiators, scrutinized shooting incident reconstructions, heard expert analysis of forensic and ballistic evidence, then deliberated for three straight days. In the end, we were left with no choice but to find the defendant not guilty because the prosecutor had done such a lousy job of presenting a flimsy case. He hadn't come anywhere close to proving intent beyond a reasonable doubt. So no attempted capital murder, no attempted second degree murder, no attempted voluntary manslaughter.

The whole sad fiasco left me feeling sick for most of the past week and a half. But I have to say, the experience gave me a renewed respect for our brothers and sisters who work in law enforcement and in the courts, including the BOTLs here who practice law. Every single person I encountered conducted themselves with honesty and integrity. Including every member of the jury. It's rare to have the opportunity to be so encouraged by the conduct of local institutions and of one's neighbors. I'm grateful for that. 

But I'm also grateful that it's over. So tonight I'm unwinding with an AMO ABR 16 Esplendido, and enjoying not being eligible for jury duty again for another year. 

[Islandboy]

Wow, my box is exactly the same code/date, and they're just starting to taste amazing. 

Enjoy your cigar, don't beat yourself up over this. Our legal system may be the best in the world, but it's still quite flawed IMO. I've done several stints of jury duty in the past, including nearly 2 years of Grand Jury duty here which had me hopping on a plane to Oahu once every month. Those were long, boring days. 

I have a brother-in-law who has been sadly addicted to meth and has spent most of his adult life incarcerated (he's in his 50's now). In jail, he's learned well how to exploit the system. I was told that most learned petty criminals are taught to request a jury trial, a right every citizen has. Since hearing this, I've stopped responding to jury notices. I work hard to support society, which includes the cost of legal council for these petty criminals, the judicial system in general, and the incarceration of him and others, not to mention his state provided financial support whenever he's out of prison. I'm all for helping those who help themselves, but the exploitation of the system that I hear of angers me. Needless to say, I don't have the same respect you have for those involved who perpetuate the status quo. 

[koosh]

How was the flavor profile in the 1st, 2nd and last third? Was the burn and construction good on that Esplendido and how would you score it using your personal scoring system if you had to, say, for a Cohiba Weekend Review Competition?

[Bri Fi]

22 minutes ago, Islandboy said:

Needless to say, I don't have the same respect you have for those involved who perpetuate the status quo. 

Care to explain what you mean by perpetuating the status quo? 

[Islandboy]

33 minutes ago, Bri Fi said:

Care to explain what you mean by perpetuating the status quo? 

Not really much more than I have already. It's common knowledge among petty criminals that demanding a jury trial offers them the best chance to be found not guilty of their offenses. I choose not to participate in this charade. A portion of my income automatically goes towards supporting them, it's a slap in the face to have to do so, AND halt my productive input to society and suffer financial hardship simply because our system enables those who don't know right from wrong to take advantage of folks like myself, who do. It's just one man's opinion. 

[JGD]

1 hour ago, db13 said:

What actually happens when if I stop responding to jury notices? Can't law enforcement arrest me during just a normal traffic stop?

I’m sure it depends on the state you live in, but in MA that is exactly what would happen. Once before a judge you would be released and likely be ordered to complete jury service by a date certain. Your case would then be dismissed. But it would still cause a huge headache for you.

[anacostiakat]

6 hours ago, db13 said:

What actually happens when if I stop responding to jury notices? Can't law enforcement arrest me during just a normal traffic stop?

Here they will issue a bench warrant for your ass.  LOL  Have been on a couple of petit juries and several Grand Juries.  It is always interesting but it does upset you routine and in some cases is a PITA. 

[CigarScentedBeard]

My biggest gripe about jury duty is the idea I lose out on a bunch of money, and the amount given to those who serve is so little. Everyone seems to be making a lot of money in court cases except the defendant and the jury. You lose out twice when you serve, first on taxes then on lost wages..... Which can not be declared on taxes.

 

21 hours ago, db13 said:

What actually happens when if I stop responding to jury notices? Can't law enforcement arrest me during just a normal traffic stop?

I know a guy that's never been, he's been asked 3 times since I've known him.  I'm guessing Philly isn't worried about enforcing it.

[aphexafx]

"My biggest gripe about jury duty is the idea I lose out on a bunch of money.."
Etc.

If you can afford to buy luxury cigars and have enough time to hang out on a luxury cigar forum, then anyone is going to roll their eyes at this complaint.  ?

Being judged by a panel of our peers is a major part of what makes us free citizens.  The state does not dictate what will happen to us.  We do.  It's one of our basic responsibilities, as free citizens, just like paying taxes.  No citizen is important enough to evade their responsibilities, simply because they are inconvenient.  That's why it's a law, just like paying taxes.  When you evade your responsibilities, everyone else has to pick up your slack.  That's not cool.  No matter how much you hate it.

If you're demanding perfection in any legal system, you're barking up the wrong tree.  Perfection is not the point.  Freedom from tyranny is the point.  You are not serving the state, you are serving one or more fellow citizens who are under trial.  It's actually an honor.

Just saying...  

[shadowACE]

"My biggest gripe about jury duty is the idea I lose out on a bunch of money.."
Etc.
If you can afford to buy luxury cigars and have enough time to hang out on a luxury cigar forum, then anyone is going to roll their eyes at this complaint.  
Being judged by a panel of our peers is a major part of what makes us free citizens.  The state does not dictate what will happen to us.  We do.  It's one of our basic responsibilities, as free citizens, just like paying taxes.  No citizen is important enough to evade their responsibilities, simply because they are inconvenient.  That's why it's a law, just like paying taxes.  When you evade your responsibilities, everyone else has to pick up your slack.  That's not cool.  No matter how much you hate it.
If you're demanding perfection in any legal system, you're barking up the wrong tree.  Perfection is not the point.  Freedom from tyranny is the point.  You are not serving the state, you are serving one or more fellow citizens who are under trial.  It's actually an honor.
Just saying...  

Hear! Hear!

Sent from my SM-N960W using Tapatalk

[bpm32]

1 hour ago, aphexafx said:

"My biggest gripe about jury duty is the idea I lose out on a bunch of money.."
Etc.

If you can afford to buy luxury cigars and have enough time to hang out on a luxury cigar forum, then anyone is going to roll their eyes at this complaint.  ?

Being judged by a panel of our peers is a major part of what makes us free citizens.  The state does not dictate what will happen to us.  We do.  It's one of our basic responsibilities, as free citizens, just like paying taxes.  No citizen is important enough to evade their responsibilities, simply because they are inconvenient.  That's why it's a law, just like paying taxes.  When you evade your responsibilities, everyone else has to pick up your slack.  That's not cool.  No matter how much you hate it.

If you're demanding perfection in any legal system, you're barking up the wrong tree.  Perfection is not the point.  Freedom from tyranny is the point.  You are not serving the state, you are serving one or more fellow citizens who are under trial.  It's actually an honor.

Just saying...  

If people are willing to do their civic duty, they can gripe all they want. Griping isn’t just an American right—it’s a human right.

 

[aphexafx]

11 minutes ago, bpm32 said:

If people are willing to do their civic duty, they can gripe all they want. Griping isn’t just an American right—it’s a human right.

 

Agree, fully!

[RDB]

I have friends who are public defenders. I am damn glad they do that job, even if they are often defending the guilty. And I’m also glad the standard of proof is high - in fact that is a right I would fight for in the streets. Because the alternative is arbitrary imprisonment and a fundamental, endemic loss of freedom.

[rcarlson]

9 hours ago, Islandboy said:

Not really much more than I have already. It's common knowledge among petty criminals that demanding a jury trial offers them the best chance to be found not guilty of their offenses. I choose not to participate in this charade. A portion of my income automatically goes towards supporting them, it's a slap in the face to have to do so, AND halt my productive input to society and suffer financial hardship simply because our system enables those who don't know right from wrong to take advantage of folks like myself, who do. It's just one man's opinion. 

Have you considered the "costs" you impose through your defiance?  

[rcarlson]

@Nekhyloduv, as one of the folks you're talking about, I can tell you your hard work is appreciated.  Sounds like you did a Yeoman's Job with a tough one.  Don't agonoize.  There's no greater injustice than being unserious when determining someone's fate.     

[CigarScentedBeard]

2 hours ago, aphexafx said:

"My biggest gripe about jury duty is the idea I lose out on a bunch of money.."
Etc.

If you can afford to buy luxury cigars and have enough time to hang out on a luxury cigar forum, then anyone is going to roll their eyes at this complaint.  ?

Being judged by a panel of our peers is a major part of what makes us free citizens.  The state does not dictate what will happen to us.  We do.  It's one of our basic responsibilities, as free citizens, just like paying taxes.  No citizen is important enough to evade their responsibilities, simply because they are inconvenient.  That's why it's a law, just like paying taxes.  When you evade your responsibilities, everyone else has to pick up your slack.  That's not cool.  No matter how much you hate it.

If you're demanding perfection in any legal system, you're barking up the wrong tree.  Perfection is not the point.  Freedom from tyranny is the point.  You are not serving the state, you are serving one or more fellow citizens who are under trial.  It's actually an honor.

Just saying...  

This would be a valid assessment had I said I wouldn't serve, or said that we shouldn't have such a process.

Second, I hardly see how I spend my money or free time off the clock has anything to do with the topic. It's odd you chose to attack freedom and correct pay and then the next paragraph attempt to defend it. Then go on to say the government does not dictate what will happen to us meanwhile supporting they dictate what we do and our ability to be free men and not slaves of the state.

Nothing in my statement supported avoiding jury duty, nor do I push the slack upon  my peers. But I don't understand if your argument is based upon rights for others and for citizens, how are you for forced labor and low wages?

I agree no system is perfect, but what I do agree with is someone being able to bring up the fact the system is flawed. That is precisely what I was doing. Telling you I disagree with how jury duty is paid or lack of pay is completed. Not jury duty, the duty, freedom, slack or anything else you mentioned. If our government actually used our money for what it should be used for and not $40,000 in new dishes for one representative , 5 million for duck penis  plasticity testing, or food allowances for representatives that go well over what the average income is for Americans, I'd have a lot less to complain about. The point is, I agree with jury duty, not the pay, how I spend my free time and money is freedom. Forced labor for wages that go against federal laws, then imposed by the government is not freedom. It is quite the opposite.

 

 

 

[bpm32]

10 hours ago, rcarlson said:

Have you considered the "costs" you impose through your defiance?  

I don’t know, man—he also said he sat on a grand jury for years. That is usually a massive time commitment, so he’s still got my respect.

 

The last time I was called in for possible jury duty was for an attempted murder trial they expected to take 3 weeks. This wasn’t some whodunnit: local gangbangers walked up to a bunch of people at a party and emptied their pistols at them at close range (and only managed to graze one guy).

I didn’t try to get out of it, but I’ll admit I was pretty relieved when I wasn’t selected. I don’t know about these things and I’m sure it varies from location to location, but I can imagine an actual murder trial going a lot longer than 3 weeks. For most non-retirees that much lost pay would be an incredible hardship, not to mention how far back that might put them and their coworkers in terms of workload.

Let’s not beat each other too much. For me, yes, it sucks that our system is so Byzantine and yes, our fellow citizens should probably show up for a jury summons (scofflaws!), but I’m going to go ahead and direct most of my ire at those gangbangers.

[Squarehead]

Here in Ontario you have to respond upon receiving a notification for jury duty or a bench warrant will be issued.You can be exempt for medical or business reasons as it happened to me twice(diabetic)and to my wife once(business).If you have to report you need to go through a selection process and might or might not chosen as a juror.

[TheGipper]

8 hours ago, CigarScentedBeard said:

You lose out twice when you serve, first on taxes then on lost wages..... Which can not be declared on taxes.

You want a double deduction on your taxes for wages not earned?  Is your real name Wesley Snipes?

[aphexafx]

5 hours ago, CigarScentedBeard said:

This would be a valid assessment had I said I wouldn't serve, or said that we shouldn't have such a process.

Second, I hardly see how I spend my money or free time off the clock has anything to do with the topic. It's odd you chose to attack freedom and correct pay and then the next paragraph attempt to defend it. Then go on to say the government does not dictate what will happen to us meanwhile supporting they dictate what we do and our ability to be free men and not slaves of the state.

Nothing in my statement supported avoiding jury duty, nor do I push the slack upon  my peers. But I don't understand if your argument is based upon rights for others and for citizens, how are you for forced labor and low wages?

I agree no system is perfect, but what I do agree with is someone being able to bring up the fact the system is flawed. That is precisely what I was doing. Telling you I disagree with how jury duty is paid or lack of pay is completed. Not jury duty, the duty, freedom, slack or anything else you mentioned. If our government actually used our money for what it should be used for and not $40,000 in new dishes for one representative , 5 million for duck penis  plasticity testing, or food allowances for representatives that go well over what the average income is for Americans, I'd have a lot less to complain about. The point is, I agree with jury duty, not the pay, how I spend my free time and money is freedom. Forced labor for wages that go against federal laws, then imposed by the government is not freedom. It is quite the opposite.

I wasn't assessing you personally, nor your statement in particular, which is why I didn't link-quote your post.  I also didn't accuse you of avoiding jury duty lol.  My comment wasn't actually about you, it was generic.  I was pointing out why the common "personal compensation" argument doesn't carry any weight.  I also agree that, as an individual, you can gripe about the system.  We all do that.  My point was that the argument, which I hear often, doesn't have any traction.  Sorry you feel personally attacked.  Probably inevitable.  But I stand by my point.

However, serving on a jury is not forced labor.  It's part of the cost of our system, aka, a duty.  And a very minor one, at that.  The compensation is the fact that it exists.  ?

[chris12381]

I served on my first jury about 10 months ago.  The defendant was shot by a police officer while he was responding to reports of a fight inside of a house.  As soon as he officer arrived at the house, the defendant, intoxicated, came out of the door brandishing a handgun and raised it at the officer.  All on dashcam.  Defendant was shot 3 times...and survived.  The trial took 16 days.  Deliberations another 5.  I was selected as foreman. 

At the end of deliberations, we found the defendant guilty of felony assault on an officer with a firearm, felony assault, felony assault with a deadly weapon, felony possession of an assault rifle and felony threats, but we found him not guilty of felony brandishing and threatening an officer (verbally).  A week later, he was sentenced to 24 years in prison.  The professionalism I saw every day by the Assistant DA, his court appointed defender and the judge was astounding.  

It was a hardship to serve on a jury for 21 days.  Like @Nekhyludov , I was grateful that it was over.  But I'd be honored to do it again.

[CigarScentedBeard]

32 minutes ago, TheGipper said:

You want a double deduction on your taxes for wages not earned?  Is your real name Wesley Snipes?

How would you be double deducting?

[BarryVT]

17 hours ago, db13 said:

What actually happens when if I stop responding to jury notices? Can't law enforcement arrest me during just a normal traffic stop?

In my state, you can just throw them in the trash, if it is not certified and signed for, no way of proving you got it. Postal service must have put in wrong box mentality. I know people who have done it for years, and not once have had any type of warrant or arrest. 

[dominattorney]

20 hours ago, Nekhyludov said:

Last Tuesday, I was seated on a jury in state District Court for the trial of a defendant who was charged with three counts of attempted capital murder of a police officer. It was my first experience serving as a juror.

For six straight days, we heard testimony from police officers and crime scene investigators, watched hours upon hours of body camera footage, listened to hours of recordings of phone calls with police negotiators, scrutinized shooting incident reconstructions, heard expert analysis of forensic and ballistic evidence, then deliberated for three straight days. In the end, we were left with no choice but to find the defendant not guilty because the prosecutor had done such a lousy job of presenting a flimsy case. He hadn't come anywhere close to proving intent beyond a reasonable doubt. So no attempted capital murder, no attempted second degree murder, no attempted voluntary manslaughter.

The whole sad fiasco left me feeling sick for most of the past week and a half. But I have to say, the experience gave me a renewed respect for our brothers and sisters who work in law enforcement and in the courts, including the BOTLs here who practice law. Every single person I encountered conducted themselves with honesty and integrity. Including every member of the jury. It's rare to have the opportunity to be so encouraged by the conduct of local institutions and of one's neighbors. I'm grateful for that. 

But I'm also grateful that it's over. So tonight I'm unwinding with an AMO ABR 16 Esplendido, and enjoying not being eligible for jury duty again for another year. 

Don't forget the men and women of the criminal defense bar.  It's a thankless job holding the government to its burden when it seeks to take away the liberty of a fellow citizen.  I'm glad you found the experience rewarding.  I'm always happy to hear about a not guilty verdict. 

[dominattorney]

22 hours ago, db13 said:

What actually happens when if I stop responding to jury notices? Can't law enforcement arrest me during just a normal traffic stop?

Probably they won't arrest you, though that depends on the jurisdiction.  They likely will report you to the DMV which will be happy to give you hell next time you try to renew your driver's license.  Jury duty may be a hardship, but it's a small price to pay for living in a society with the best justice system on earth. 

 

11 hours ago, RDB said:

I have friends who are public defenders. I am damn glad they do that job, even if they are often defending the guilty. And I’m also glad the standard of proof is high - in fact that is a right I would fight for in the streets. Because the alternative is arbitrary imprisonment and a fundamental, endemic loss of freedom.

Here's a public defender who would gladly buy you a cigar.