Question About Popularity of LCDH Cigars

[JohnS]

That is excellent work there, @Fugu! I notice Alex has the Partagas Maduro No.1 information (that it was a Habanos Specialist Release) in the regular production listing, but not the Por Larranaga Picadores. @ATGroom, dear friend, what do you think?

 

 

[Fugu]

3 hours ago, JohnS said:

That is excellent work there, @Fugu! I notice Alex has the Partagas Maduro No.1 information (that it was a Habanos Specialist Release) in the regular production listing, but not the Por Larranaga Picadores. @ATGroom, dear friend, what do you think?

John, looked it up on the Habanos website. Below is the respective link. Just noticed that they were even disclosing the approximate annual production info.

Por Larrañaga Picadores, a novelty for La Casa del Habano and Habanos Specialists

18 June 2015

Especialidades, Habanos Specialist, La Casa del Habano, Releases 

• A new of thick ring gauge vitola in one of the most historic brand within the Habanos portfolio.
• Por Larrañaga Picadores, a vitola aimed exclusively at Habanos Specialists and La Casa del Habano franchise stores, will be available to all markets worldwide in the next weeks.

Habanos s.a. introduces the new “Picadores” in Por Larrañaga brand, an exclusive production aimed to La Casa del Habano network with more than 140 stores around the world and for the Habanos Specialists outlets which represents more than 760 shops all over the world.   [....]

http://www.habanos.com/en/noticias/por-larranaga-picadores-novedad-para-la-casa-del-habano-y-especialistas-habanos/

[Fugu]

On 2/18/2019 at 10:10 PM, NSXCIGAR said:

All the Minutos are good.

This. I could live almost exclusively on Minutos, and I guess actually about 50% of what I smoke is Minuto-format (and the thereabouts)

On 2/18/2019 at 10:10 PM, NSXCIGAR said:

You can say a lot about Cuban cigars, but they without a doubt produce the best small cigars in the world by far. Many of their smaller cigars are absolute gems that blow away some of the double-banded dollar gobblers.

Truth!

[Connoisseur Kim]

7 hours ago, Fugu said:

Here's the post from another thread, regarding Habanos Specialist (HS + Casas, that is) releases.
So far we got, released every year since 2012:

2012 - SC Torreon. (initial runs came with a LCDH band, probably by mistake..., later ones without)
2013 - ConA
2014 - Picadores
2015 - Maduro1, since 2018 regprod, forming a new line together with the No.2 and 3
2016 - Punch 48 (first use of the new HS/LCDH band as a second band)
2017 - ConB
2018 - SCdLH Prado (the second HS-release for SC already)
2019 - Novedosos

Great work and this will help CC beginners those who do not acknowledge Habanos Specialist cigars (surprisingly LCDH cigars are quite well known in my country but not so much information on Habanos Specialist cigars like Connie A)! ?

3 hours ago, Fugu said:

John, looked it up on the Habanos website. Below is the respective link. Just noticed that they were even disclosing the approximate annual production info.

Por Larrañaga Picadores, a novelty for La Casa del Habano and Habanos Specialists

18 June 2015

Especialidades, Habanos Specialist, La Casa del Habano, Releases 

• A new of thick ring gauge vitola in one of the most historic brand within the Habanos portfolio.
• Por Larrañaga Picadores, a vitola aimed exclusively at Habanos Specialists and La Casa del Habano franchise stores, will be available to all markets worldwide in the next weeks.

Habanos s.a. introduces the new “Picadores” in Por Larrañaga brand, an exclusive production aimed to La Casa del Habano network with more than 140 stores around the world and for the Habanos Specialists outlets which represents more than 760 shops all over the world.   [....]

http://www.habanos.com/en/noticias/por-larranaga-picadores-novedad-para-la-casa-del-habano-y-especialistas-habanos/

I forgot to mention that it was both Habanos Specialist and LCDH release once until that HSA decided to add it as regular production for Por Larrnaga! ?

3 hours ago, Fugu said:

This. I could live almost exclusively on Minutos, and I guess actually about 50% of what I smoke is Minuto-format (and the thereabouts)

Truth!

Give me more Cohiba Siglo II, Monte #4 and Party Shorts and will be happy for that! Will try Trinidad Reyes BPC BCJ and PLPC as well ?!

[NSXCIGAR]

9 hours ago, Fugu said:

It is a HS release, just like the ConA. As for pricing... depends on the market you are looking at. Still, not a cigar I feel in any way attracted to.

Also a HS release. That shiny HS-band is new, first used with the Punch48. Earlier releases came without a second band (with exception of early Torreones, which bore - by mistanke? - the red LCDH-band).That's also why the ConA doesn't have one. I posted a complete list in another thread some time back, since CCW seems also be lacking some info there. Will see, whether I can track that down again.

My mistake--the Connie A & B are indeed both HS releases.

As for the PL Picadores, HSA's press release is a very confusing classification of a release. Since there's no such thing as a LCDH and a HS release, and the cigars never had any markings or descriptors upon release I would say that despite some kind of intention to release these as LCDH, HS or both it never actually was. CCW also reflects nothing indicating anything other than this cigar being regular production at any time. 

 

[bigguccisosa]

11 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

I don't think this is correct. PL Picadores was a 2014 regular production release and is a permanent lineup addition. 

I think you're correct. It's hard to find this information. Here's where I got confused:

"Habanos s.a. introduces the new “Picadores” in Por Larrañaga brand, an exclusive production aimed to La Casa del Habano network" http://www.habanos.com/en/noticias/por-larranaga-picadores-novedad-para-la-casa-del-habano-y-especialistas-habanos/

"Picadores was officially discontinued in the 70's but later on reproduced as part of the La Casa Del Habano (LCDH) line." https://www.hitcigars.com/cuban-cigars/Por-Larranaga/Picadores(LCDH).htm

Also the Friends of Habanos store also lists it as LCDH: https://store.friendsofhabanos.com/isv/por-larranaga-picadores-no-1-lcdh-25-s-box.html

EDIT - Just saw this

Quote

As for the PL Picadores, HSA's press release is a very confusing classification of a release. Since there's no such thing as a LCDH and a HS release, and the cigars never had any markings or descriptors upon release I would say that despite some kind of intention to release these as LCDH, HS or both it never actually was. CCW also reflects nothing indicating anything other than this cigar being regular production at any time. 

Yeah I was wondering if maybe the boxes used to have the LCDH sticker on them but I don't believe they ever did. At least I feel that my confusion is justified

[ATGroom]

9 hours ago, JohnS said:

I notice Alex has the Partagas Maduro No.1 information (that it was a Habanos Specialist Release) in the regular production listing, but not the Por Larranaga Picadores. @ATGroom, dear friend, what do you think?  

Others have said it above, but my opinion is that the press release is wrong. The cigars never had either the LCDH exclusive or the Habanos Specialist band, the sticker for either program was never on the box, and as far as I am concerned they were always just regular production. This is Cuba being Cuba.

I guess it raises the question of what makes a release part of one program or other? If HSA says it is an LCDH exclusive, but doesn't put the bands on it that typically indicate that it's part of that program, is it part of it? If stores are listing them as LCDH then that says to me that the distributor catalogues probably say LCDH on them, so somewhere in the pipe I think HSA probably thinks of them as an exclusive release, but that message isn't getting passed along to the factories.

The exclusivity of both programs is very dubious - perhaps HSA sends the boxes to distributors with the instructions that they are only to allow LCDHs and specialists to order them, but clearly this is not followed as they are commonly available outside of these stores.

What does appear to be true is that the LCDH and specialist cigars are released in somewhat limited numbers, although I've never seen any any indication before of what these numbers might be. 8400 25 count boxes, 210,000 sticks... about double the typical count of an RE, three times a GR, half an LE... yeah, seems somewhat limited. Although I'm sure there's plenty of other regular production that doesn't see those kind of numbers.

The real question is, should CCW continue listing LCDH and Specialist Exclusive as a "Special Release" or are these really just a different kind of regular production? The only way that they really differ from it in any practical sense is that they have a second band... and it appears that sometimes they don't even have that.

[Connoisseur Kim]

1 hour ago, ATGroom said:

Others have said it above, but my opinion is that the press release is wrong. The cigars never had either the LCDH exclusive or the Habanos Specialist band, the sticker for either program was never on the box, and as far as I am concerned they were always just regular production. This is Cuba being Cuba.

I guess it raises the question of what makes a release part of one program or other? If HSA says it is an LCDH exclusive, but doesn't put the bands on it that typically indicate that it's part of that program, is it part of it? If stores are listing them as LCDH then that says to me that the distributor catalogues probably say LCDH on them, so somewhere in the pipe I think HSA probably thinks of them as an exclusive release, but that message isn't getting passed along to the factories.

The exclusivity of both programs is very dubious - perhaps HSA sends the boxes to distributors with the instructions that they are only to allow LCDHs and specialists to order them, but clearly this is not followed as they are commonly available outside of these stores.

What does appear to be true is that the LCDH and specialist cigars are released in somewhat limited numbers, although I've never seen any any indication before of what these numbers might be. 8400 25 count boxes, 210,000 sticks... about double the typical count of an RE, three times a GR, half an LE... yeah, seems somewhat limited. Although I'm sure there's plenty of other regular production that doesn't see those kind of numbers.

The real question is, should CCW continue listing LCDH and Specialist Exclusive as a "Special Release" or are these really just a different kind of regular production? The only way that they really differ from it in any practical sense is that they have a second band... and it appears that sometimes they don't even have that.

Confusion... and more confusion by Habanos S.A.! It is still worth to explain both LCDH and Specialist Exclusive as many newcomers are not acknowledged the existence of Specialist Exclusive cigars (e.g. Connoisseur A is not discussed in my country at all, not even in local B&Ms) compared to LCDH cigars.

Regardless of whether the cigar is LCDH or Specialist Exclusive, I will gladly pick LCDH and Specialist Exclusive cigars if they are meet our standards (Connie A ?) and as long as they are still in production.

[Fugu]

Boys, you are making it more complicated than it really is (not going to reply to each of the above, some argumentation is confusing things).

First of all: Sure there is such thing as a "LCDH&HS" release, Casa del Habano y Especialistas en Habanos (and the press release text is clear about it, neither wrong nor confusing, it is almost the same for the others such as ConA or Maduro No. 1, so absolutely consistent).

So, then let's sort this out here again: There is two different programs for the Habanos franchise system: The first one being the LCDH-specials (red band). With the introduction of the second one in 2012 they wanted to offer something to the Habanos Specialists also (an awarding concept for 'specialist' shops that local distributor 5th Avenue came up with, starting in 2004, in order to promote the Habanos through an additional system not only based on Casas alone), but what they didn't want to keep to them exclusively. Understandable - since the Casas would have been a little 'upset' if the "second tier" HS-shops would receive stuff they couldn't get their hands on. That's only logical. This second one now being the LCDH&HS release program. This is recently even being more clearly indicated by the new (golden) band bearing both logos, the LCDH- and the HS-logo combined into one single band. Separating it from the red LCDH-band, which is only sporting the LCDH-logo (take a closer look at both). The golden band is not a new redesign of the red one, as some may have thought.

Now, the confusing part might be that the first four releases simply came unbanded (unbanded with a second band that is). And a few of the first Torreon initially - falsely - bore the red LCDH logo (on box and cigar), perhaps indicating that Habanos may not have had a clear concept about it from the beginning (not too surprising.... ). But all those came with something special setting them apart from regular production, either a special band (Picadores, ConA) or packaging (jar) or wrapper (Maduro 1), so perhaps a special band was simply deemed unnecessary in the beginning. Instead, the LCDH&HS production were just announced to be available through that group of franchises only. But there is no doubt about it that it was so, and that distribution was and is limited. Whether it's slipping through via other channels, now that's another story, same happening all the time with other specials - just see here.....

Fact is, these cigars and boxes of the first releases simply didn't have a special band for it back then, that's all. That is also why e.g. the Connie A comes without a second band, while the B now does. The LCDH&HS band had not been introduced before 2016 with the Punch release.

There has been one new release every year following 2012, so this also is absolutely consistent there.

[Connoisseur Kim]

12 minutes ago, Fugu said:

Boys, you are making it more complicated than it really is (not going to reply to each of the above, some argumentation is confusing things).

First of all: Sure there is such thing as a "LCDH&HS" release, Casa del Habano y Especialistas en Habanos (and the press release text is clear about it, neither wrong nor confusing, it is almost the same for the others such as ConA or Maduro No. 1, so absolutely consistent).

So, then let's sort this out here again: There is two different programs for the Habanos franchise system: The first one being the LCDH-specials (red band). With the introduction of the second one in 2012 they wanted to offer something to the Habanos Specialists also (an awarding concept for 'specialist' shops that local distributor 5th Avenue came up with, starting in 2004, in order to promote the Habanos through an additional system not only based on Casas alone), but what they didn't want to keep to them exclusively. Understandable - since the Casas would have been a little 'upset' if the "second tier" HS-shops would receive stuff they couldn't get their hands on. That's only logical. This second one now being the LCDH&HS release program. This is recently even being more clearly indicated by the new (golden) band bearing both logos, the LCDH- and the HS-logo combined into one single band. Separating it from the red LCDH-band, which is only sporting the LCDH-logo (take a closer look at both). The golden band is not a new redesign of the red one, as some may have thought.

Now, the confusing part might be that the first four releases simply came unbanded (unbanded with a second band that is). And a few of the first Torreon initially - falsely - bore the red LCDH logo (on box and cigar), perhaps indicating that Habanos may not have had a clear concept about it from the beginning (not too surprising.... ). But all those came with something special setting them apart from regular production, either a special band (Picadores, ConA) or packaging (jar) or wrapper (Maduro 1), so perhaps a special band was simply deemed unnecessary in the beginning. Instead, the LCDH&HS production were just announced to be available through that group of franchises only. But there is no doubt about it that it was so, and that distribution was and is limited. Whether it's slipping through via other channels, now that's another story, same happening all the time with other specials - just see here.....

Fact is, these cigars and boxes of the first releases simply didn't have a special band for it back then, that's all. That is also why e.g. the Connie A comes without a second band, while the B now does. The LCDH&HS band had not been introduced before 2016 with the Punch release.

There has been one new release every year following 2012, so this also is absolutely consistent there.

Thank you for posting this gold post and the CC newcomers will thank this post for getting a clear idea of LCDH and HS cigars ?

[bigguccisosa]

7 hours ago, Fugu said:

Boys, you are making it more complicated than it really is

No we aren't, Cuba is! ??

But seriously, what you said makes perfect sense. Thank you for typing it all out.

Quote

The golden band is not a new redesign of the red one, as some may have thought.

Guilty as charged. Thanks for the information. When I bought the Punch 48 I just figured it was a LCDH band redesign. Regardless, I really love the look of it.

Quote

But all those came with something special setting them apart from regular production, either a special band (Picadores, ConA) or packaging (jar) or wrapper (Maduro 1), so perhaps a special band was simply deemed unnecessary in the beginning.

Oh, great point! And I actually appreciate that they used the "throw back" band on the Picadores. I think it's more fun than the double banding.

[NSXCIGAR]

12 hours ago, Fugu said:

Boys, you are making it more complicated than it really is (not going to reply to each of the above, some argumentation is confusing things).

First of all: Sure there is such thing as a "LCDH&HS" release, Casa del Habano y Especialistas en Habanos (and the press release text is clear about it, neither wrong nor confusing, it is almost the same for the others such as ConA or Maduro No. 1, so absolutely consistent).

So, then let's sort this out here again: There is two different programs for the Habanos franchise system: The first one being the LCDH-specials (red band). With the introduction of the second one in 2012 they wanted to offer something to the Habanos Specialists also (an awarding concept for 'specialist' shops that local distributor 5th Avenue came up with, starting in 2004, in order to promote the Habanos through an additional system not only based on Casas alone), but what they didn't want to keep to them exclusively. Understandable - since the Casas would have been a little 'upset' if the "second tier" HS-shops would receive stuff they couldn't get their hands on. That's only logical. This second one now being the LCDH&HS release program. This is recently even being more clearly indicated by the new (golden) band bearing both logos, the LCDH- and the HS-logo combined into one single band. Separating it from the red LCDH-band, which is only sporting the LCDH-logo (take a closer look at both). The golden band is not a new redesign of the red one, as some may have thought.

Now, the confusing part might be that the first four releases simply came unbanded (unbanded with a second band that is). And a few of the first Torreon initially - falsely - bore the red LCDH logo (on box and cigar), perhaps indicating that Habanos may not have had a clear concept about it from the beginning (not too surprising.... ). But all those came with something special setting them apart from regular production, either a special band (Picadores, ConA) or packaging (jar) or wrapper (Maduro 1), so perhaps a special band was simply deemed unnecessary in the beginning. Instead, the LCDH&HS production were just announced to be available through that group of franchises only. But there is no doubt about it that it was so, and that distribution was and is limited. Whether it's slipping through via other channels, now that's another story, same happening all the time with other specials - just see here.....

Fact is, these cigars and boxes of the first releases simply didn't have a special band for it back then, that's all. That is also why e.g. the Connie A comes without a second band, while the B now does. The LCDH&HS band had not been introduced before 2016 with the Punch release.

There has been one new release every year following 2012, so this also is absolutely consistent there.

Yes, it does appear that all "HS" releases are actually "HS & LCDH" releases. Was not aware of that. And it's obvious that bands are not definitive. Connie B has them, Connie A doesn't--both are HS/LCDH. And I agree, I think we can disregard the few early Torreon with the LCDH bands. 

So how do we know that Torreon, Connie A and Maduro No. 1 are HS at all? Because HSA declared it via press release--that's it. Other than the original press releases for the Torreon, Connie A and Maduro No. 1, there's nothing that would indicate any of those 3 cigars aren't regular production. 

And now we come to the Picadores. It seems that we have the same pattern as the three original HS releases. We do have the Picadores press release, and by all rights, this is all that the original 3 releases have. I think it's fair to place the Picadores in the HS/LCDH category. Is that a correct interpretation @ATGroom?

[ATGroom]

7 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Yes, it does appear that all "HS" releases are actually "HS & LCDH" releases. Was not aware of that. And it's obvious that bands are not definitive. Connie B has them, Connie A doesn't--both are HS/LCDH. And I agree, I think we can disregard the few early Torreon with the LCDH bands. 

So how do we know that Torreon, Connie A and Maduro No. 1 are HS at all? Because HSA declared it via press release--that's it. Other than the original press releases for the Torreon, Connie A and Maduro No. 1, there's nothing that would indicate any of those 3 cigars aren't regular production. 

And now we come to the Picadores. It seems that we have the same pattern as the three original HS releases. We do have the Picadores press release, and by all rights, this is all that the original 3 releases have. I think it's fair to place the Picadores in the HS/LCDH category. Is that a correct interpretation @ATGroom?

Yes, thanks @Fugu  your interpretation all makes sense to me. I wasn't aware that the HS program had come out of 5th Avenue or that the program had begun that early, so with those details I think we're all pretty much on the same page. I'll look at updating CCW.

I do have one little wrinkle for you - some boxes of the 2017 Gran Robusto Netherlands ER came with the Picadores band, while others came with the normal gold band... at the time my thinking on this was that the Picadores was regular production and wearing the "new" PL band, in a similar way to how the Cohiba Pirmides Extra had the new Cohiba band for a couple of years before it was introduced to the whole line, or the Monte Double Edmundo and Petite No. 2 had their new band for a few years before the rest of the line. It seemed to follow then that the factory had run out of the gold bands halfway through the run of the ER, and switched to the red bands, which would soon be showing up on all PL.

So if the theory is that the Picadores band is not a standard band, but a unique band for that cigar to signify its special Habanos Specialist status, then how did they end up on the ER? I guess either way it's "Cuba being Cuba."

[NSXCIGAR]

1 hour ago, ATGroom said:

So if the theory is that the Picadores band is not a standard band, but a unique band for that cigar to signify its special Habanos Specialist status, then how did they end up on the ER? I guess either way it's "Cuba being Cuba."

Yes, I think this is a case of Cuba being Cuba. Wouldn't have seen anything wrong with them using the retro Picadores band for other special releases but the fact that it was only on some of the early Gran Robustos leads me to believe it was a mistake or they ran out of standard bands that month. Would make since since they don't have a standard band for a large RG in regular use. The last one needed would have been for the 15 Magicos. 

I also wouldn't have assumed a band update for the brand since HSA did acknowledge that the Picadores band is essentially a "retro" novelty band. Nothing was said about the Cohiba or Monte band update--they just appeared. Same with the new QdO bands--they just appeared on the new cigars at the Festival.

Seems we all learned something about HS releases today, thanks in large part to @Fugu

[Smallclub]

And to add to the confusion, the two biggest markets/buyers, Spain and France, don't even have a LCDH… ?

[bigguccisosa]

11 hours ago, ATGroom said:

Yes, thanks @Fugu  your interpretation all makes sense to me. I wasn't aware that the HS program had come out of 5th Avenue or that the program had begun that early, so with those details I think we're all pretty much on the same page. I'll look at updating CCW.

I do have one little wrinkle for you - some boxes of the 2017 Gran Robusto Netherlands ER came with the Picadores band, while others came with the normal gold band... at the time my thinking on this was that the Picadores was regular production and wearing the "new" PL band, in a similar way to how the Cohiba Pirmides Extra had the new Cohiba band for a couple of years before it was introduced to the whole line, or the Monte Double Edmundo and Petite No. 2 had their new band for a few years before the rest of the line. It seemed to follow then that the factory had run out of the gold bands halfway through the run of the ER, and switched to the red bands, which would soon be showing up on all PL.

So if the theory is that the Picadores band is not a standard band, but a unique band for that cigar to signify its special Habanos Specialist status, then how did they end up on the ER? I guess either way it's "Cuba being Cuba."

Oh geez. That is quite the wrinkle lol.

I do agree with @NSXCIGAR that it's weird to think of this as a band update when HSA described it this way on the press release:

Quote

On this ocassion, the label of the brand has been redesigned and it is now more stylized alternating the white, red and gold colors, inspired by the original design of a regional edition of the 70’s.

But maybe that's just because I don't want them to scrap the gold label. Especially the ones they use for the ER's. I like this red/white/gold combo just fine, but I would really miss that gold shine.

[Fugu]

16 hours ago, ATGroom said:

So if the theory is that the Picadores band is not a standard band, but a unique band for that cigar to signify its special Habanos Specialist status, then how did they end up on the ER? I guess either way it's "Cuba being Cuba."

Oh, happens. Certainly not standard. "CbC" as you say, Alex. Likely at some moment they ran out of the larger-RG golden one, which isn't utilized in any regular format. The Picadores' (48 RG) will give a perfect makeshift, fitting a 50-RG cigar.

Has been happening before on occasion. Remember the Party Selección Privada LE, or the D3 EL mixing the red "Series"-band and the standard band? Rumour has it there was even some Partagas-made production seen lately coming without any band at all.... .

[Connoisseur Kim]

On 2/21/2019 at 2:21 PM, ATGroom said:

Yes, thanks @Fugu  your interpretation all makes sense to me. I wasn't aware that the HS program had come out of 5th Avenue or that the program had begun that early, so with those details I think we're all pretty much on the same page. I'll look at updating CCW.

I do have one little wrinkle for you - some boxes of the 2017 Gran Robusto Netherlands ER came with the Picadores band, while others came with the normal gold band... at the time my thinking on this was that the Picadores was regular production and wearing the "new" PL band, in a similar way to how the Cohiba Pirmides Extra had the new Cohiba band for a couple of years before it was introduced to the whole line, or the Monte Double Edmundo and Petite No. 2 had their new band for a few years before the rest of the line. It seemed to follow then that the factory had run out of the gold bands halfway through the run of the ER, and switched to the red bands, which would soon be showing up on all PL.

So if the theory is that the Picadores band is not a standard band, but a unique band for that cigar to signify its special Habanos Specialist status, then how did they end up on the ER? I guess either way it's "Cuba being Cuba."

I also agree updating it will be helpful to everyone! ?

15 hours ago, Fugu said:

Oh, happens. Certainly not standard. "CbC" as you say, Alex. Likely at some moment they ran out of the larger-RG golden one, which isn't utilized in any regular format. The Picadores' (48 RG) will give a perfect makeshift, fitting a 50-RG cigar.

Has been happening before on occasion. Remember the Party Selección Privada LE, or the D3 EL mixing the red "Series"-band and the standard band? Rumour has it there was even some Partagas-made production seen lately coming without any band at all.... .

Cuba is Cuba it seems ?