Strong statement from a company like NewAir....

[Puffaholic]

@PigFish, visual learner here. That video... Gracias! 

[bpm32]

Not sure where the controversy comes from. The chart, as asthetically bad as it is, shows the relationship between temp and rH for a given concentration of gaseous water in air (presumably). It is basic junior high science class, but on the other hand overwise intelligent people forget this stuff, so it’s nice to be reminded once in a while. 

The chart says nothing about mold and it offers no advice on how you should store your cigars. 

[PigFish]

1 hour ago, dobbs said:

hell yeah! one of my motorcycle heroes, saw him wheelie the corkscrew at laguna seca before traction control.

-dobbs

This man taught the world and reinvented how to road race motorcycles. He was a revolutionary in his own right.

Cheers! -P

[Wilzc]

Not sure where the controversy comes from. The chart, as asthetically bad as it is, shows the relationship between temp and rH for a given concentration of gaseous water in air (presumably). It is basic junior high science class, but on the other hand overwise intelligent people forget this stuff, so it’s nice to be reminded once in a while. 
The chart says nothing about mold and it offers no advice on how you should store your cigars. 

If this chart is about connecting the dots between ambient storage temperature and ambient rH then it’s not looking accurate as the warmer the temperature the more humidity the air is capable of holding.


If this chart is about connecting the dots between the ambient storage temperature and the optimum % rH that should be maintained in the storage, it is ALSO wrong! The higher the temperature the drier your cigars would become!


So.... NewAir... I’m unsure what they’re smoking ....



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Markspring1978]

1 hour ago, Wilzc said:

 

 

If this chart is about connecting the dots between ambient storage temperature and ambient rH then it’s not looking accurate as the warmer the temperature the more humidity the air is capable of holding.


If this chart is about connecting the dots between the ambient storage temperature and the optimum % rH that should be maintained in the storage, it is ALSO wrong! The higher the temperature the drier your cigars would become!


So.... NewAir... I’m unsure what they’re smoking ....



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Respectfully, you are completely incorrect in both of your conclusions. All of the conditions on this cart are identical in amount of moisture that is being held in the specific ambient condition described. 70 degrees with 70% relative humidity has the same amount of moisture in air as 66 degrees and 80% relative humidity, as does any other condition on the chart. @PigFish is correct in a much deeper discussion that could be had here about water activity, (aw). However, it is my opinion, that aw, or equilibrium moisture content (EMC), vapor pressure, or grain depression are far beyond the scope of any cigar hobbyist, and is likely to confuse them immensely.

The only reason that I responded to this topic, and the only reason that I have made any of the statements that I have on this thread, is because in practical working experience, again I deal with this every day drying out water damaged structures, most people don't understand that Rh isn't the only important factor. They put a bunch of Bovida 69 degree packs in a humidor and think they are golden, ignoring the impact of temperature and the greater capacity that warm air has to hold water. Or, they have their humidifier set to 70%, with no temperature control, and it pumps more water into the air when it gets warmer, and the humidity drops.

I think we can all agree that stability is the key to cigar storage and aging. Wherever that sweet spot is for you, and where you like to enjoy your cigars, you should pursue. But, if you elect to keep your cigars at a higher temperature, like 72-75 degrees, you need to know that a 69% or 65% Bovida pack is probably the wrong solution.

[bpm32]

12 hours ago, HopeUgood said:

Is there no good solution to store cigars when you live in a house that heats up to 80 F without controlling the temperature of where the cigars are stored? What is the best thing to do if you cant combat temperature?

No one else jumped in so I'll just mention what I did before I had reasonable storage: I stored everything in high quality coolers with tight seals. It didn't protect the cigars from high temperatures, but it did dampen the massive temperature swings. The thing is, I already had the containers, but for the cost of good coolers you could probably just buy a wine cooler.

This sounds goofy, but I suppose you could get a baseline cigar that has what you feel is ideal water content and tare it on a reasonably accurate kitchen balance. Then you could periodically weigh that cigar. If weight goes down, humidify everything; if weight goes up dehumidify everything. Just don't accidentally smoke it....

[PigFish]

15 hours ago, HopeUgood said:

Is there no good solution to store cigars when you live in a house that heats up to 80 F without controlling the temperature of where the cigars are stored? What is the best thing to do if you cant combat temperature?

Sometimes I get lost in details and miss a simple request for info. Not being fully satisfied with what I have read I will take a stab at this one.

Whoever told you that cigars need to be refrigerated? They don't.

Is it true that I use a fully climate controlled humidor? Yes it is. But what I demand may not be what will satisfy you. 80F is not going to ruin anyone's cigar. Is Cuba refrigerated?

Briefly, I fully climate control my cigars for one main reason. Consistency. Why? So each one smokes the same, so I can see the true nature of each cigar without climate variables affecting the taste. Temperature changes PMC. PMC changes taste. To protect against the change, I climate control my cigars.

Is it necessary for me? Yes, I can taste water in a cigar and I want every cigar to be its best if I am going to buy it, store it and smoke it. I can afford the luxury. I also make my own humidors.

Does the world have to do what I do, buy my products to store cigars...? Hell no!

Storage and whether it works or not, is largely a matter of opinion. Where it strays from opinion to fact is where you exceed the boundary of what either allows a cigar to breakdown from structural failure, or damage from biological means. Stay out of those areas of damage, and satisfy yourself with the condition of your cigars and you are fine. Cigars don't need to be cooled!

Cooling and control gives me stability. It means that I can control the PMC to a high degree of precision. It is my belief that it increases my smoking pleasure. If you believe the same, well you are stuck with 'more costly' storage solutions just like I am. If you don't, well guess what, you can simply buy more cigars from our host and spend less with a humidor maker. The choice is yours. Taste, discover, experiment and follow your own belief system. Follow your tastes, not mine.

Yes I can tell you what I think is or is not a working humidor. But I cannot taste for you or tell you that your tastes lie to you about the best conditions for your cigars. That is all on you baby.

Best of luck on your journey! -Piggy

[bpm32]

37 minutes ago, PigFish said:

Sometimes I get lost in details and miss a simple request for info. Not being fully satisfied with what I have read I will take a stab at this one.

Whoever told you that cigars need to be refrigerated? They don't.

Is it true that I use a fully climate controlled humidor? Yes it is. But what I demand may not be what will satisfy you. 80F is not going to ruin anyone's cigar. Is Cuba refrigerated?

Briefly, I fully climate control my cigars for one main reason. Consistency. Why? So each one smokes the same, so I can see the true nature of each cigar without climate variables affecting the taste. Temperature changes PMC. PMC changes taste. To protect against the change, I climate control my cigars.

Is it necessary for me? Yes, I can taste water in a cigar and I want every cigar to be its best if I am going to buy it, store it and smoke it. I can afford the luxury. I also make my own humidors.

Does the world have to do what I do, buy my products to store cigars...? Hell no!

Storage and whether it works or not, is largely a matter of opinion. Where it strays from opinion to fact is where you exceed the boundary of what either allows a cigar to breakdown from structural failure, or damage from biological means. Stay out of those areas of damage, and satisfy yourself with the condition of your cigars and you are fine. Cigars don't need to be cooled!

Cooling and control gives me stability. It means that I can control the PMC to a high degree of precision. It is my belief that it increases my smoking pleasure. If you believe the same, well you are stuck with 'more costly' storage solutions just like I am. If you don't, well guess what, you can simply buy more cigars from our host and spend less with a humidor maker. The choice is yours. Taste, discover, experiment and follow your own belief system. Follow your tastes, not mine.

Yes I can tell you what I think is or is not a working humidor. But I cannot taste for you or tell you that your tastes lie to you about the best conditions for your cigars. That is all on you baby.

Best of luck on your journey! -Piggy

So what do you think he should do PF? Having experienced the same issues I’d be interested to hear your advice.

[Baccy]

13 hours ago, Colt45 said:

Leaving the chart out of it, warmer air can hold more water vapor than cooler air - so it's not necessarily that the humidity changes with temp, but that the air's ability to hold that moisture does. If you read what Ray said above - "If you lower temperature (and maintain rH constant) then tobacco does not get dryer, it gets wetter" - it makes sense.

My less than scientific way to look at it - let's say there is a nice warm day which gives way to a cool night. In the morning, dew on the grass, condensation on the car windshield. The cooler evening air can't hold as much vapor as the warmer air of the day.

 

 

 

I get the basic theory, but the chart is misleading. If I drop the temp in my room to 60 degrees, I'm not going to have dew(100%) on my cigars and that's what the chart is implying. I don't like the chart, I like PigFish's video. He knows his stuff! lol.

[PigFish]

1 hour ago, bpm32 said:

So what do you think he should do PF? Having experienced the same issues I’d be interested to hear your advice.

It really depends on ambient and your (his/her) tastes. What is your ambient?

If you don't have high rH problems that is half the battle. If you have high rH problems you likely need to use a cooled appliance, one that dehydrates. That is worst case.

Best case, you have some variance during the day, lets say you can limit it to 70 to 80F. If you can really taste water and it ruins your cigars, you are back to full climate control, but if not you get an ice chest and store like most of our colleagues.

If your climate is variable, I don't like Boveda. Why? Because Boveda, while not a pure aqueous salt solution product, it is more a constant delivery product than beads. Beads on the other hand behave just like cigars. Don't confuse this technically with me saying that desiccant product have the same isotherms as tobacco. That is not correct. However generally they behave enough alike that in small temperature deltas, they will benefit you in a variable temperature environment. When it gets hot, cigars and beaded desiccant products give up water. That is good because cigars need more water as the temp goes up. As temps go down desiccants get more attractive to free water, just like cigars so they pick up the free water you don't want nesting in your cigars. The key is to understand that variable temps mean variable rH to match. You don't want variable temps and stable rH. That is where the problems of dry/mold come into play.

Bead sellers are not really very honest about how their products perform. Set rH product (desiccant products dishonestly sold as such) are (IMHO) a waste of money because you are buying more water than desiccant. Buy a lot of it, and I mean pounds not ounces. Bead products should really compete with cigars for water. If they don't, they won't really work. Boveda products are slow reacting, long hysteresis products. I don't really like them unless you can really keep a stable temp. I assume if you cannot control temp. well, then your temp it is likely not very stable either. Those are my qualifications.

I blend my own bead product for my own purposes. For me, beads are a buffer. That is how I suggest using them. This means a lot of surface area and a lot of product. Don't choke when i tell you that depending on the type of desiccant you use, you should be using 25 to 50% the weight of your cigars to buffer them. That is a lot of desiccant folks. in other words, 6oz of desiccant in a plastic tube does not do squat.

Remember please that controlled solutions are my specialty. Passive systems don't suit me, and I don't use them myself, so you really should seek more advice from membership that successfully stores this way. I am a controlled environment specialist. Pretending that I store the way the majority of the membership stores is disingenuous.

I don't care how many threads have been started about it. Do some research on the forum and ask your questions again. There are plenty of people here to help.

To come full circle I am not ducking your questions. But in some ways you are asking a foot doctor to diagnose your migraines. I specialize in fully controlled solutions. Passive solutions are not my bailiwick.

Does that help? I hope so... -Ray

[ponfed]

I store my cigars 10 degrees below combustion. My hygrometer seems unreliable, but no mold.....

My family doesn't like it though.

[Wilzc]

Respectfully, you are completely incorrect in both of your conclusions. All of the conditions on this cart are identical in amount of moisture that is being held in the specific ambient condition described. 70 degrees with 70% relative humidity has the same amount of moisture in air as 66 degrees and 80% relative humidity, as does any other condition on the chart. [mention=79]PigFish[/mention] is correct in a much deeper discussion that could be had here about water activity, (aw). However, it is my opinion, that aw, or equilibrium moisture content (EMC), vapor pressure, or grain depression are far beyond the scope of any cigar hobbyist, and is likely to confuse them immensely.
The only reason that I responded to this topic, and the only reason that I have made any of the statements that I have on this thread, is because in practical working experience, again I deal with this every day drying out water damaged structures, most people don't understand that Rh isn't the only important factor. They put a bunch of Bovida 69 degree packs in a humidor and think they are golden, ignoring the impact of temperature and the greater capacity that warm air has to hold water. Or, they have their humidifier set to 70%, with no temperature control, and it pumps more water into the air when it gets warmer, and the humidity drops.
I think we can all agree that stability is the key to cigar storage and aging. Wherever that sweet spot is for you, and where you like to enjoy your cigars, you should pursue. But, if you elect to keep your cigars at a higher temperature, like 72-75 degrees, you need to know that a 69% or 65% Bovida pack is probably the wrong solution.

Well then. I have one of my humidors at 80F - 69 rH. I guess I’m screwed!


(The other larger humidor is at 65F 65rH thank the cigar gods)




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[HopeUgood]

12 hours ago, bpm32 said:

No one else jumped in so I'll just mention what I did before I had reasonable storage: I stored everything in high quality coolers with tight seals. It didn't protect the cigars from high temperatures, but it did dampen the massive temperature swings. The thing is, I already had the containers, but for the cost of good coolers you could probably just buy a wine cooler.

This sounds goofy, but I suppose you could get a baseline cigar that has what you feel is ideal water content and tare it on a reasonably accurate kitchen balance. Then you could periodically weigh that cigar. If weight goes down, humidify everything; if weight goes up dehumidify everything. Just don't accidentally smoke it....

Not a bad idea to learn how my cigars are reacting to different scenarios and fluctuations.  A good cooler would seemingly do a damn good job, knowing how long they can store a block of ice.  You would likely end up at the average temp of the environment over the course of a week. Thank you fro the reply. 

[HopeUgood]

9 hours ago, PigFish said:

Sometimes I get lost in details and miss a simple request for info. Not being fully satisfied with what I have read I will take a stab at this one.

Whoever told you that cigars need to be refrigerated? They don't.

Is it true that I use a fully climate controlled humidor? Yes it is. But what I demand may not be what will satisfy you. 80F is not going to ruin anyone's cigar. Is Cuba refrigerated?

Briefly, I fully climate control my cigars for one main reason. Consistency. Why? So each one smokes the same, so I can see the true nature of each cigar without climate variables affecting the taste. Temperature changes PMC. PMC changes taste. To protect against the change, I climate control my cigars.

Is it necessary for me? Yes, I can taste water in a cigar and I want every cigar to be its best if I am going to buy it, store it and smoke it. I can afford the luxury. I also make my own humidors.

Does the world have to do what I do, buy my products to store cigars...? Hell no!

Storage and whether it works or not, is largely a matter of opinion. Where it strays from opinion to fact is where you exceed the boundary of what either allows a cigar to breakdown from structural failure, or damage from biological means. Stay out of those areas of damage, and satisfy yourself with the condition of your cigars and you are fine. Cigars don't need to be cooled!

Cooling and control gives me stability. It means that I can control the PMC to a high degree of precision. It is my belief that it increases my smoking pleasure. If you believe the same, well you are stuck with 'more costly' storage solutions just like I am. If you don't, well guess what, you can simply buy more cigars from our host and spend less with a humidor maker. The choice is yours. Taste, discover, experiment and follow your own belief system. Follow your tastes, not mine.

Yes I can tell you what I think is or is not a working humidor. But I cannot taste for you or tell you that your tastes lie to you about the best conditions for your cigars. That is all on you baby.

Best of luck on your journey! -Piggy

Some background of my scenario, I live in two cities flying back and forth weekly for work. One city is hot, dry, desert like climate for the most part (think Los Angeles). The other is more temperate (think San Francisco).  I am going to do some googling to find these beads if they are preferable over Boveda in a place that has temp fluctuations.  My hotter location is an apt in an old building, top floor, facing west, virtual oven in the summer. Winter comes and the desert climate kicks in, cooling of rapidly at night.  Should I end up in either place full time, while still having the income to enjoy this hobby I will get a setup that is more active and stable. 
I am on the beginning of my cigar "journey," still smoking my way through different brands, and sizes. I will out myself as a cigar noob professing my love for the Montecristo 4.  I enjoy the size very much, and the profile is enjoyable for me, all while not breaking the bank.  Maybe in time that will change. Thank you for the reply and information. 

[BJRPorter]

I see the chart, I read Pigfish’s comments about his storage preferences being extreme, then I remember that tobacco has been grown, harvested, and smoked for hundreds of years.

After reading all this, I know four things, I don’t store my cigars as well as Pigfish. I don’t meet the chart guidelines. I enjoy my cigars. Lastly, this isn’t worth driving myself nuts over.

[Toast & Taste]

On 11/21/2018 at 2:00 AM, PigFish said:

The guy who authored that should be emasculated!!!

 

 

Note to self: Never pee in Ray's corn flakes.  ?

 

Big Al

[bpm32]

If you guys think PF’s methods are complicated, look into how chemistry laboratories are made. Basically you’ve got all the complexity of humidity control except dozens of fume hoods are replacing the air in the building every few minutes. For a lab that deals with energetic materials it’s even more complicated. Explosives are mostly polar organics that are insanely hygroscopic, so like a normal chem lab you’d want to keep the humidity way down. But then some of them are intensely ESD sensitive, so if the humidity goes too low, waving an ungrounded finger near them causes them to detonate. Complicating this is that the diagnostics for these materials are highly specialized and cost millions of dollars, and they prefer low humidity.

[Vortigan]

As much as I enjoy watching & listening to you, Ray (and I do) I'm afraid that you could roll that video up and stuff me like a Thanksgiving turkey with it, I'd still be none the wiser  It gives me pause to realise just how much faith I'm putting in Mr. Colman and Mr. Boveda ?

[Baccy]

The chart is accurate, and relevant only if you're using a device such a hydration unit(sponge type) that is a one way device. The chart is trying to illustrate that for an exact given amount of moisture(humidity) in the air the RH will steadily rise as the temp falls until the dew point is reached and that's all it is showing. Of course we all know that there are many more variables at play here, as PF points out in his video.

[Habana Mike]

I keep mine between what humidity levels the humidors hold (59 -64) and the temperature in my basement keeps (69-73).

Cigars smoke fine for me regardless with minimal mold and quite infrequent brittleness.

Agreed it is important to understand the nuances to avoid bad conditions but also think we should not worry so much as it's a hobby that should provide enjoyment and relaxation.

That said, I greatly appreciate the wet porcine's scientific endeavors in this area!

[PigFish]

17 hours ago, Habana Mike said:

I keep mine between what humidity levels the humidors hold (59 -64) and the temperature in my basement keeps (69-73).

Cigars smoke fine for me regardless with minimal mold and quite infrequent brittleness.

Agreed it is important to understand the nuances to avoid bad conditions but also think we should not worry so much as it's a hobby that should provide enjoyment and relaxation.

That said, I greatly appreciate the wet porcine's scientific endeavors in this area!

... a positive peer review at long last....  -LOL

-tP