coffee - how anal are you?

[dicko]

Fairly. I buy good locally produced beans and grind myself with a quality grinder and use an entry level espresso machine which i keep clean. Double shot with a dash of milk usually.

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[Lotusguy]

I recently discovered the world of pour-over coffee. Got a decent quality Capresso burr grinder and a Hario V60 setup. I use a scale to weigh beans and water. It's a nice routine and yields great quality coffee. For milk drinks I still use my trusty Jura Capresso machine which is now close to 9 years old and has had 10k pulls and still chuggs along. Once it dies, l'll get one of the new ones with the PEP process which actually makes a decent espresso.

[Fugu]

10 hours ago, Fuzz said:

I just thought Ken was talking about a coffee colonic treatment...

.... didn't he?!?

[garbandz]

18 hours ago, Cold Smoke said:

Why does this topic make me think of civet coffee?

Good To The Last Drop(ping)................

 

 

 

been waiting YEARS to use that !!    

[JohnInCleveland]

On 12/5/2017 at 6:17 AM, Fuzz said:

That's not coffee, that's flavoured milk.

I'm going to change the topic a bit, but this made me think of a funny story.

 

My mother-in-law went into a brewery nearby and asked the bartender for whatever was most similar to a Michelob Ultra.  The bartender responded "water with a lemon." 

 

 

[jfire]

Fresh beans, fresh ground, same measurement, same temped water. Same steep time. Always a good cup of french press.

 

 

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[Ken Gargett]

had a note back from my mate re the freezing of beans (or at least, putting them in the freezer).

 

"Keeping beans in the freezer is no good unless they are vacuum sealed. But then I believe it is the only way to keep roasted beans for any period past 2-3 weeks.

It was recommended by a boutique coffee roaster and I have found it works. I have been using this storage method  for over a year now. Normally I just grind the cold beans straight from the container. But it is fairly hard to implement without a suitable container. I used to vacuum seal using heat sealable bags, but that is clumsy if you want just one coffee. The answer I have found is a silicone seal jar by Vacco: it is easy to evacuate using a Vacuvin hand pump and has an indicator to show a vacuum has been obtained."

hand pumps? vacuum indicators? and you blokes wonder where i got the idea of coffee fanatics being anal.

[LLC]

I recently discovered the world of pour-over coffee. Got a decent quality Capresso burr grinder and a Hario V60 setup. I use a scale to weigh beans and water. It's a nice routine and yields great quality coffee. For milk drinks I still use my trusty Jura Capresso machine which is now close to 9 years old and has had 10k pulls and still chuggs along. Once it dies, l'll get one of the new ones with the PEP process which actually makes a decent espresso.

I've had my Jura Capresso for 15 years and have done over 15,000 cups. Couldn't live without it.


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[scap99]

19 hours ago, Lotusguy said:

I recently discovered the world of pour-over coffee. Got a decent quality Capresso burr grinder and a Hario V60 setup. I use a scale to weigh beans and water. It's a nice routine and yields great quality coffee. For milk drinks I still use my trusty Jura Capresso machine which is now close to 9 years old and has had 10k pulls and still chuggs along. Once it dies, l'll get one of the new ones with the PEP process which actually makes a decent espresso.

I just modified my Capresso to grind more coarsely.  Love the flavors that come out when the beans aren't powdered.

[Lotusguy]

I just modified my Capresso to grind more coarsely.  Love the flavors that come out when the beans aren't powdered.

Mine came with and adjustable grinder? It's the F7 model.

Ignore the oily beans - wifey bought on sale at Costco

[LLC]

Mine came with and adjustable grinder? It's the F7 model.

Ignore the oily beans - wifey bought on sale at Costco

Mine is also adjustable it was about 3/4 to course. From what your saying I might be better off moving it more towards course. Thoughts?


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[Lotusguy]

Mine is also adjustable it was about 3/4 to course. From what your saying I might be better off moving it more towards course. Thoughts?


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Depends on the beans. I use finer for lighter roasts and coarser for darker roasts.

[LLC]

Depends on the beans. I use finer for lighter roasts and coarser for darker roasts.

Thanks. I have been almost exclusively using these. The company that distributes Jura in Canada has cafe's as well and use these in their machine. It says it is a darker roast so I'll try turning it a bit coarser and see how it is.





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[heftytome]

As long as it is a good coffee bean, I am happy...

[Fugu]

Thanks for following up on this Ken.

15 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

"Keeping beans in the freezer is no good unless they are vacuum sealed. But then I believe it is the only way to keep roasted beans for any period past 2-3 weeks.

That's essentially as is my take on it, totally fine if working at best results for your friend. As suggested, too, a possible way for longer-term storage, and perhaps the optimum for your particular climate area (unless a/c-ed).

However, one caveat here regarding vacuumizing (and let's get a little bit anal(-ytical) here ):

If done once, prior to storage and/or freezing: Fine - yet not needed with fresh roasts. But if done repeatedly, perhaps even on a daily basis, then what you essentially do is you suck out all the precious protective atmosphere of CO2 off your outgassing beans. And that very effectively. On opening the vaccumized container again, air (~21% O2) will stream in and that not only into the interstice volume but even into (!) the beans and will replace the protective CO2 *. In my view, you lose way more than you win by that procedure. The oils' oxidation will continue to take place even in the cold and even if frozen and, as shown below *, you'll never be able to fully re-vacuumize all oxygen out of the volume. All happening at a slower rate than at room temp., sure, but it will still happen, as the bonds to be oxidized are quite reactive. So, why not simply let the beans do "their work"?

There is a reason why most roasters today don't vacuumize for shipping, but instead use those valve-outlet bags - any excess carbon dioxide can escape while oxygen can't invade. The less you handle your beans the better (as holding for your sssigars).

My suggestion for storage of bulk buys would always be: Sub-divide the amount into several smaller containers, each of them holding no more than the beans for a week (e.g. Lock&Lock is doing very nice sealed, food-grade boxes in all various forms and sizes). That way, the major part can stay unhandled and fresh under its own protective atmosphere until use. No chilling necessary for those three weeks if you ask me. It's just critical that beans were fairly freshly roasted, i.e. still gassing out (max. a few days old) and that containers are left untouched. And avoid to let beans sit in the reservoir of your machines and grinders if not used up quickly (but only if you're truly anal about it... ). Fill in newly from sealed storage for each new grind. In some bean-to-cup automates the bean hold may even get warm to a degree.

I like my beans best at 3 to 6 days after roasting. But even after that point quality goes down only ever so slightly and slowly as to my observation, under my conditions (storage temperature 19-22°C year round), with beans widely keeping their original aroma, and that better as with freezing.

* Brief example: If at sea level you vaccumized to a residual pressure of let's assume 200 hPa (0.2 bar; as is easily achieved by most vaccum sealers), then upon unsealing, 80% of the gas volume within a bean will immediately be replaced by new air. That is corresponding to 17% v/v oxygen, in a single step!! Repeat it on a daily or perhaps multiple-per-day basis and you'll have soon replaced all CO2. Revacuumizing (21% O2 to 0.2 bar), will leave you with a residual 4% v/v oxygen (20 percent of atm. partial pressure), still.

[Hookmaker]

On 5/12/2017 at 12:46 PM, kalibratecuba said:

Let's see if I'm that anal. Coffee beans shouldn't be frozen, it messes with the oils and chemical composition of the beans. I don't roast my own beans, but buy just roasted from down the street. The pour over method allows me to do the weighing that your friend does and also water temp control and distribution. I use a Breville most days. They think coffee might cause my kidney stones. I'm going to spin that as a bonus byproduct. I'm not giving up coffee. Best accompaniment to a cigar too!

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Correct (as regards the freezing). 

During my pharmaceutical studies I also did a study on the aetheric oils in coffee beans - this is where a lot of the flavours are hidden. As it turns out, the majority of these get vaporized during grinding, and thus need to settle down in the ground coffee in order for the coffee to retain its full spectrum of flavours. This is done by keeping the ground coffee under lid and lock for a minimum of 24 hours, so a straight grind and then into the pot will result in a flavour deprived coffee.

Anyways, before anyone asks, no I did not retain the results of this study, but it must have been done by others also.?

....and alas I just can’t bother with the time - my cup is NesCafé Gold.

[Ken Gargett]

6 hours ago, Fugu said:

That's essentially as is my take on it, totally fine if working at best results for your friend. As suggested, too, a possible way for longer-term storage, and perhaps the optimum for your particular climate area (unless a/c-ed).

However, one caveat here regarding vacuumizing (and let's get a little bit anal(-ytical) here ):

If done once, prior to storage and/or freezing: Fine - yet not needed with fresh roasts. But if done repeatedly, perhaps even on a daily basis, then what you essentially do is you suck out all the precious protective atmosphere of CO2 off your outgassing beans. And that very effectively. On opening the vaccumized container again, air (~21% O2) will stream in and that not only into the interstice volume but even into (!) the beans and will replace the protective CO2 *. In my view, you lose way more than you win by that procedure. The oils' oxidation will continue to take place even in the cold and even if frozen and, as shown below *, you'll never be able to fully re-vacuumize all oxygen out of the volume. All happening at a slower rate than at room temp., sure, but it will still happen, as the bonds to be oxidized are quite reactive. So, why not simply let the beans do "their work"?

There is a reason why most roasters today don't vacuumize for shipping, but instead use those valve-outlet bags - any excess carbon dioxide can escape while oxygen can't invade. The less you handle your beans the better (as holding for your sssigars).

My suggestion for storage of bulk buys would always be: Sub-divide the amount into several smaller containers, each of them holding no more than the beans for a week (e.g. Lock&Lock is doing very nice sealed, food-grade boxes in all various forms and sizes). That way, the major part can stay unhandled and fresh under its own protective atmosphere until use. No chilling necessary for those three weeks if you ask me. It's just critical that beans were fairly freshly roasted, i.e. still gassing out (max. a few days old) and that containers are left untouched. And avoid to let beans sit in the reservoir of your machines and grinders if not used up quickly (but only if you're truly anal about it... ). Fill in newly from sealed storage for each new grind. In some bean-to-cup automates the bean hold may even get warm to a degree.

I like my beans best at 3 to 6 days after roasting. But even after that point quality goes down only ever so slightly and slowly as to my observation, under my conditions (storage temperature 19-22°C year round), with beans widely keeping their original aroma, and that better as with freezing.

* Brief example: If at sea level you vaccumized to a residual pressure of let's assume 200 hPa (0.2 bar; as is easily achieved by most vaccum sealers), then upon unsealing, 80% of the gas volume within a bean will immediately be replaced by new air. That is corresponding to 17% v/v oxygen, in a single step!! Repeat it on a daily or perhaps multiple-per-day basis and you'll have soon replaced all CO2. Revacuumizing (21% O2 to 0.2 bar), will leave you with a residual 4% v/v oxygen (20 percent of atm. partial pressure), still.

thanks for all this. we are starting to get well above my pay grade but i will pass it on to my mate.

[jay8354]

You start a hobby and obsess over it. You go through much fancy and latest toys.

Then you realise that you are becoming intolerable a$$ and almost a hipster.

So you mellow out and just enjoy the result.

I like all types of coffee and used to be anal.

Now it is more about spending the time with people enjoying the coffee. Coffee still needed to be good, just not obsessive.

I mean I have Aeropress, Vaccuum Percolator, Cold Drip, Pod machine (not Nespresso, that might change), about to get Nitro Coffee

[Ken Gargett]

okay, given that this is my thread, i can hijack it a little.

one of the joys of coffee for me, is when first opening the new bag and sticking my nose in it for the glorious fresh coffee aromas. love that. but once, just once, i did this and it felt like a punch in the nose. whatever gases had built (might have been some ammonia but who knows - well, hopefully someone here) hit me like a physical punch. never had it happen before or since. spoke to the owner of the company and he had never encountered it.

anyone any idea what might have happened here?

[Jeremy Festa]

6 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

okay, given that this is my thread, i can hijack it a little.

one of the joys of coffee for me, is when first opening the new bag and sticking my nose in it for the glorious fresh coffee aromas. love that. but once, just once, i did this and it felt like a punch in the nose. whatever gases had built (might have been some ammonia but who knows - well, hopefully someone here) hit me like a physical punch. never had it happen before or since. spoke to the owner of the company and he had never encountered it.

anyone any idea what might have happened here?

Hey mate

I recently acquire a 1948 Gaggia Gilda.

Completely reconditioned.

Haven't used it yet.

Supposedly has to be my Christmas present from the wife, even though I bought it, after this thing found it's way to me, as I have been searching for the last few years.

Pretty stoked with it. 

Keen for a coffee and cigar between Christmas and New Year if you're about? 

 

 

 

[Fugu]

That's exactly the effect of accumulated carbon dioxide in a fresh roast, Ken. Forming carbonic acid on your nasal mucosa on sniffing. As you are mentioning ammonia - chemically, a similar dissociating effect, where ammonia is forming its base, ammonium hydroxid on contact with water, not an acid (the irritant effect being similar).

[Fugu]

52 minutes ago, Hookmaker said:

This is done by keeping the ground coffee under lid and lock for a minimum of 24 hours, so a straight grind and then into the pot will result in a flavour deprived coffee.

This statement, as general as you put it, can be qualified as being of no practical value to the everyday coffee preparation. Perhaps a valid statement from a laboratory-perspective, but that will strongly depend on what exactly you mean by "lid and lock". This would certainly require some sort of storage under an inert gas phase or the like in order to prevent oxidation and staleness.

Haha, yes, would indeed love to see that study.

[Ken Gargett]

49 minutes ago, Fugu said:

That's exactly the effect of accumulated carbon dioxide in a fresh roast, Ken. Forming carbonic acid on your nasal mucosa on sniffing. As you are mentioning ammonia - chemically, a similar dissociating effect, where ammonia is forming its base, ammonium hydroxid on contact with water, not an acid (the irritant effect being similar).

thanks. i think.

 

55 minutes ago, Jeremy Festa said:

Hey mate

I recently acquire a 1948 Gaggia Gilda.

Completely reconditioned.

Haven't used it yet.

Supposedly has to be my Christmas present from the wife, even though I bought it, after this thing found it's way to me, as I have been searching for the last few years.

Pretty stoked with it. 

Keen for a coffee and cigar between Christmas and New Year if you're about? 

 

 

 

birth year present?

very keen. though you did knock me back the other day - did i mention we had some pretty smick stuff - latest rockfiord, a dujac malconsorts, cracking champers (though the 04 pol blanc corked).

be in touch when back next week.

[Jeremy Festa]

32 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

thanks. i think.

 

birth year present?

very keen. though you did knock me back the other day - did i mention we had some pretty smick stuff - latest rockfiord, a dujac malconsorts, cracking champers (though the 04 pol blanc corked).

be in touch when back next week.

I require at least 72 hours notice. Jealous. Catch ya soon! 

[fabes]

That’s a lovely lever you got there @Jeremy Festa