Min Ron Nee - Cigar Blends, Storage and other questions

[Philc2001]

3 hours ago, PigFish said:

We are stuck here! If you are truly interested in some science (non-GMO data) about tobacco in general, it is where you go. I think this will always be the case. Cigarettes have been studied extensively for industry and due to litigation... It is where you must go to find data...

Climate plays a huge role in the manufacture of cigarettes. Much more than cigars. Again, if you seek data that supports or generates theories about tobacco, smoking etcetera, this is where that data will be found. Cigarettes are highly controlled nicotine delivery 'appliances.' They are consistent. They are consistent because competition requires it. It is not monopolistic at all, and highly competitive. Everything about a cigarette has been studied and calculated.

The funny thing now. After all that litigation and punishment of tobacco companies for making 'a profit on death.' Look who makes more per pack now... The cigarette company, or the government that taxes it.

Cheers. -Piggy

Ray, I agree the scientific research is virtually exclusively based on cigarette tobacco, and that is what I find most troubling about it.  Extrapolating from cigarette tobacco research to make determinations about cigars seems to have very limited value IMPO. Aside from the obvious packaging differences, there are big differences in storage conditions, the thickness, shapes and length of cigars versus highly uniform cigarettes, the construction, hand made cigars versus very precise machine made cigarettes, the all natural content of cigars versus manufactured content of cigarettes, additives, etc. It gets even more challenging to apply cigarette research to cigars when it involves aging and storage. Cigarettes seem to have a short shelf life (weeks or a few months), whereas cigars are aged for years or decades. Are there similarities, of course there is, but there seem to be more differences than similarities. I have not heard of cigarettes tunneling, or canoeing, or cigarettes needing to be aged to improve flavor. I don't hear of anyone aging their cigarettes, or storing them in climate controlled conditions. Those are just a few variables that make the comparison far from trivial.

[polarbear]

I honestly think the average cigar smoker really overthinks cigars
While I agree, correct storage conditions and basic smoking techniques are important I think people get too wrapped up in "the right way to do it" rather than just doing it.
I've read countless threads of people fretting over their humidor remaining stable at 62%rh rather than the "desired" 65%rh, only to comment a few posts down that they notice no difference in the quality of the experience between the cigars stored at 62% and the ones stored at 65%.

Most of my humidors dance between 60% and 62% rh @ 18 degrees on any given day and I've noticed no decline in smoking experience since I got my set up stable. I could invest more time and money in getting the RH a couple of % higher and the temp a couple of degrees lower, but as far as my experience shows, this additional effort and cost bares no additional fruit. Admittedly, the longest I've stored a cigar in my current set up is only 8 years, and the nature of Cuban cigars is that two identical cigars of the same age can often offer different experiences regardless of storage conditions, so it is difficult for one to know what could have been had he stored his stocks in different conditions, but again, the additional effort and worry is not worth the perceived increase in enjoyment (if there is any)

That having been said, people who have collections numbering in the tens of thousands may feel differently, as we are talking a sizeable investment of both time and money, but the average cigar smoker who has less than 100 sticks, should worry less about his RH and more enjoying his cigars. If they smoke well (in you opinion) and every good cigar you smoke takes you where you need to go, then who cares that some internet expert says that you're RH is too low/high?

I mean no disrespect to anyone who has made a hobby/profession out of understanding the science of tobacco, everyone needs people who are prepared to go that extra mile in the hopes of educating the wider community, but 90% of recreational cigar smokers could spend less time worrying about their cigars and more time smoking them

As always, my opinions on this matter are mine and mine alone, anyone who asks my opinions on storage and then follows my advice does so at their own risk. There is no one size fits all solution to cigar storage or even smoking techniques. Figure out how it best works for you and roll with that

 

[PigFish]

2 hours ago, polarbear said:

I honestly think the average cigar smoker really overthinks cigars
While I agree, correct storage conditions and basic smoking techniques are important I think people get too wrapped up in "the right way to do it" rather than just doing it.
I've read countless threads of people fretting over their humidor remaining stable at 62%rh rather than the "desired" 65%rh, only to comment a few posts down that they notice no difference in the quality of the experience between the cigars stored at 62% and the ones stored at 65%.

Most of my humidors dance between 60% and 62% rh @ 18 degrees on any given day and I've noticed no decline in smoking experience since I got my set up stable. I could invest more time and money in getting the RH a couple of % higher and the temp a couple of degrees lower, but as far as my experience shows, this additional effort and cost bares no additional fruit. Admittedly, the longest I've stored a cigar in my current set up is only 8 years, and the nature of Cuban cigars is that two identical cigars of the same age can often offer different experiences regardless of storage conditions, so it is difficult for one to know what could have been had he stored his stocks in different conditions, but again, the additional effort and worry is not worth the perceived increase in enjoyment (if there is any)

That having been said, people who have collections numbering in the tens of thousands may feel differently, as we are talking a sizeable investment of both time and money, but the average cigar smoker who has less than 100 sticks, should worry less about his RH and more enjoying his cigars. If they smoke well (in you opinion) and every good cigar you smoke takes you where you need to go, then who cares that some internet expert says that you're RH is too low/high?

I mean no disrespect to anyone who has made a hobby/profession out of understanding the science of tobacco, everyone needs people who are prepared to go that extra mile in the hopes of educating the wider community, but 90% of recreational cigar smokers could spend less time worrying about their cigars and more time smoking them

As always, my opinions on this matter are mine and mine alone, anyone who asks my opinions on storage and then follows my advice does so at their own risk. There is no one size fits all solution to cigar storage or even smoking techniques. Figure out how it best works for you and roll with that

 

In many ways my friend, I largely agree with you. Where my experience likely differs from yours, is that my ambient can be wildly unstable.

Not that I am rationalizing here, as I have an intense interest in many aspects of cigars that need not be explained to anyone, but there are always several perspectives to a topic. While I discuss cigar conditions al lot, I never worry about them. That is because I have taken the worry out of it with hard work and research. I have made the best of my circumstances by designing my own systems.

There is great luxury in that. And that is point I think we can agree on. Yes, fretting about a couple points here or there is not generally worth doing. BUT, I say that with luxury of knowing that my threshold represents perfection compared to most people. So there is peace of mind knowing that your cigars are +- a couple of points. Take it from me, as you begin to engage as many people as I have around the world, just tonight getting an email from a guy in Malaysia for example, you see a lot of people have a lot of conditions that many would consider undesirable and unmanageable. Some of these people have many a reason to worry. They have little or no control in their cigar storage.

Having a system that works, is peace of mind, even if it is devilishly simple, and costs next to nothing..! It is easy to laugh at the lengths that people like me will go. I tell people, I am a fanatic on the subject... But when your cigars are moldy or dry... and you are looking for answers, while you may not have 10's of thousands in cigars, the few thousand you have you may have worked very hard to acquire. What you don't want is for them to get ruined and that can happen quite easily when you have little or no control over your environment.

Cheers! -Piggy

[polarbear]

10 minutes ago, PigFish said:

In many ways my friend, I largely agree with you. Where my experience likely differs from yours, is that my ambient can be wildly unstable.

Not that I am rationalizing here, as I have an intense interest in many aspects of cigars that need not be explained to anyone, but there are always several perspectives to a topic. While I discuss cigar conditions al lot, I never worry about them. That is because I have taken the worry out of it with hard work and research. I have made the best of my circumstances by designing my own systems.

There is great luxury in that. And that is point I think we can agree on. Yes, fretting about a couple points here or there is not generally worth doing. BUT, I say that with luxury of knowing that my threshold represents perfection compared to most people. So there is peace of mind knowing that your cigars are +- a couple of points. Take it from me, as you begin to engage as many people as I have around the world, just tonight getting an email from a guy in Malaysia for example, you see a lot of people have a lot of conditions that many would consider undesirable and unmanageable. Some of these people have many a reason to worry. They have little or no control in their cigar storage.

Having a system that works, is peace of mind, even if it is devilishly simple, and costs next to nothing..! It is easy to laugh at the lengths that people like me will go. I tell people, I am a fanatic on the subject... But when your cigars are moldy or dry... and you are looking for answers, while you may not have 10's of thousands in cigars, the few thousand you have you may have worked very hard to acquire. What you don't want is for them to get ruined and that can happen quite easily when you have little or no control over your environment.

Cheers! -Piggy

As always, great to have your input and experience on these matters, Mr Fish

I perhaps should have been more concise about my initial point.
I was more referring to people who purchase their first humidor (electric or otherwise) take the time to season and set it up properly and then fret when they get readings the larger cigar community considers "not ideal"

I live in northern Australia where the ambient humidity will fluctuate from 30%-100% depending on the time of day/year
Like wise the temps fluctuate between (on average) 24 degrees and 32 degrees
Understanding how stable conditions are ideal for good cigar storage, I went the wine fridge route. Spent some time and money to put a set up together that balanced cost with functionality.
Is my set up as stable or as well made as one of your systems?
I highly doubt it, but it does what I need it to do and I see no benefit in trying to re-design a system that does what I need it too and offers me stable enough storage when the outside conditions are taken into account.

I've had people look at pictures of my humidors and comment "62%rh? That's a little low, isn't it? I never store my sticks that low. Its 65% or nothing"
That's sort of the attitude I'm referring to.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that a lot of people go looking for "problems" with their cigar storage when in reality there aren't any.
If your sticks aren't dried out, mouldy, plugged or splitting, I see no benefit in loosing sleep over what your hygrometers show when you're not looking at them

[PigFish]

7 hours ago, polarbear said:

As always, great to have your input and experience on these matters, Mr Fish

I perhaps should have been more concise about my initial point.
I was more referring to people who purchase their first humidor (electric or otherwise) take the time to season and set it up properly and then fret when they get readings the larger cigar community considers "not ideal"

I live in northern Australia where the ambient humidity will fluctuate from 30%-100% depending on the time of day/year
Like wise the temps fluctuate between (on average) 24 degrees and 32 degrees
Understanding how stable conditions are ideal for good cigar storage, I went the wine fridge route. Spent some time and money to put a set up together that balanced cost with functionality.
Is my set up as stable or as well made as one of your systems?
I highly doubt it, but it does what I need it to do and I see no benefit in trying to re-design a system that does what I need it too and offers me stable enough storage when the outside conditions are taken into account.

I've had people look at pictures of my humidors and comment "62%rh? That's a little low, isn't it? I never store my sticks that low. Its 65% or nothing"
That's sort of the attitude I'm referring to.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that a lot of people go looking for "problems" with their cigar storage when in reality there aren't any.
If your sticks aren't dried out, mouldy, plugged or splitting, I see no benefit in loosing sleep over what your hygrometers show when you're not looking at them

... I get you fully, believe me! Cigar storage is about satisfaction... just like cigar smoking.

My wife will fret if I put too much salt on my food. Why? Well, it is not my heart, it is her wondering if she did not properly season the food. She is a wonderful chef, it is about whether she did it right, good enough for me but more importantly, for herself. She is her own worse critic. I am the same with humidors.

It is always one caveat that I put into almost every comment I make about the relative nature of cigar storage. Are you satisfied? How do your cigars smoke?

Neophytes are often about piece of mind. They just bought say, $1000.00 worth of cigars, and it is the world to them. They read horror stories, they want to do it right. My correspondence with many people is more about mentoring and peace of mind then it is about a couple rH here or there.

My stuff is really for the extremist. Typically for the guy/gal who has extreme conditions and does not have a handle on it. That is the key... no handle on it. No way to get the satisfaction and the peace of mind.

There really is a fat envelope to store cigars. Except if you consider yourself an expert on the matter. Then, it is different for you (one). Something has in the past interfered with your smoking experience. You lose peace of mind, or satisfaction for some reason or another. Mine, well it was cigar taste. I don't believe is sick periods. I believe in poorly made and poorly stored cigars. When cigars are properly stored, the poorly stored is removed from the equation. I am then free from that responsibility. It all rests on Tabacuba then. Did they make me a great cigar, or a crappy one? Again, peace of mind. Who do I blame for the poor cigar. Was it my fault? Or, was it the fault of another.

Whether it is you (rhetorically) a famous collector, a neophyte, or me, it is about doing your best, whatever that best may be, to care for your cigars and attain what you emphasize in attaining with the means that you store. It is largely a confidence game!

Sometimes satisfaction becomes an obsession. Some must constantly 'hunt' for their best cigar. Others, well they fear the air, and wrap in foil, wave a chicken foot over their cigars and other things...! Me, I test and test and test and prove to myself that I am the best at what I do... Like everyone else, I have a theory. That theory leads me to a practice. That practice proves itself in my smoking.

Always engaging mate. Cheers! -Piggy

[monkey66]

For me the stand-out comment in this entire thread is the idea that nailing a new seed takes 20 years or more.

 

This would explain why we have been seeing a steady improvement in taste in the last 10 years or so (allowing for some ups and downs) and also suggests there is more improvement yet to come.

 

Just my observations of course.

 

 

 

 

[NSXCIGAR]

2 hours ago, monkey66 said:

For me the stand-out comment in this entire thread is the idea that nailing a new seed takes 20 years or more.

Yes. This is something a lot of people fail to consider. The strains themselves can take decades to refine, let alone the trial and error of what regions produce what flavors used in what blends for these strains. The movement away from Crilollo and Corojo is only about 20-22 years past which is really not that much time in the scheme of things. This whole period of 1995-2020 has really been a rebuilding period that can and has occurred at various points in the history of Cuban tobacco.

I'm confident that at some point in the next 5-10 years major progress will be reached as things have, on the whole, generally steadily improved since 2000. The 2017 crop is a huge opportunity for information gathering that was much needed and will ostensibly expedite the process of refining the strains and blends.

[shaffer22]

1 hour ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Yes. This is something a lot of people fail to consider. The strains themselves can take decades to refine, let alone the trial and error of what regions produce what flavors used in what blends for these strains. The movement away from Crilollo and Corojo is only about 20-22 years past which is really not that much time in the scheme of things. This whole period of 1995-2020 has really been a rebuilding period that can and has occurred at various points in the history of Cuban tobacco.

I'm confident that at some point in the next 5-10 years major progress will be reached as things have, on the whole, generally steadily improved since 2000. The 2017 crop is a huge opportunity for information gathering that was much needed and will ostensibly expedite the process of refining the strains and blends.

You see similar periods that took place in the NC world too.  It took decades for them to figure things out and approach the quality they have today.

[fastkiller13]

I had no idea who Min Ron Nee was before I read this thread, always fun to learn about someone new, especially someone who seems to bring up strong opinions. His book looks pretty cool but I'm not interested enough to drop 1k USD on a copy.  I don't know enough about the man or his legacy to give him any labels, however I can comment on what the interview read like to me. MRN sounded like a very guarded yet very confident individual, I didn't find him to be arrogant but he is direct which can come across as condescending and/or arrogant. In my experience that is the general attitude when communicating with scientist, I understand he is an MD, a profession where speaking concisely is preferable to being friendly.  

As far as the comment he wrote "this is a one man’s opinion based on one man’s experience." as a neophyte this really rang true for me.  Having spent many hours reading forums and books, and listening to pearls of wisdom from cigar shop employees I am realizing it is really my opinion that matters most, to me of course, I'm the guy literally burning money I should enjoy it. I am already realizing I find smoking a cigar I placed into a small desktop humidor at 65% RH for a couple days much more enjoyable then smoking one from the humidor which I have at 70% RH. Finding out what I like is a good fun time, no reason we all shouldn't enjoy our cigars the way we get the most pleasure from them, within reason that is. 

Just to play devils advocate I offer another theory on his never open any boxes statement. MRN seems to be very well respected by most whether or not they agree with his opinions. I would go so far as to say there are many people who revere him and his work, he did write the cigar bible after all (I read that, I don't know the book or have an opinion on it). That  places him in a position where anybody he is receiving cigars from is more than likely ensuring they are the best damn sticks that can be had. Certainly their reputation and/or careers may very well depend on it. So my theory is this, he doesn't have to worry about the cigars he receives, they are naturally the highest quality available and the cold storage will also kill any beetles/eggs/larvae in the tobacco. Another factor I considered is that he was specifically asked about vintage boxes. He did mention 1995 and earlier as smoking great now. So if he considers 1995 as the start of vintage, any sealed box is either perfectly ok, or completely ruined already and enough time has past that the ruined box shouldn't pose any danger so f@#$% it throw it in and whenever he fancies he can open it and smoke them or toss them and grab another vintage box (must be nice). 

As a scientist I do have issues with his argument about 72% RH but I think @PigFish did a fine job with that so I am going to leave it alone. Anyways I hope I offended nobody, I just wanted to relay my thoughts as a newbie on what I thought of the interview and addendum. I had a good time reading through the comments in this thread and if nothing else MRN has started a lively and fun debate from which I actually learned quite a bit. Thanks all who participated!

[Fugu]

5 hours ago, MonkeyCrisco said:

This article will tell you much more about the seed change—facts, not speculation and ghost stories. And by the sounds of it, most wouldn't be able to tell the difference anyway. The seeds have already been developed. For the last few years, it's been bad weather that brought lousy crops, not the seeds. Regardless, for those who have not seen it, here it is. https://www.cigaraficionado.com/article/a-passion-for-seeds-18248

Yes, this is a very good article with substance indeed, that has actually been posted here a couple of times before (also by myself - but can't be done often enough, though... ). What's been stated there is certainly not describing some end point.

But what many seasoned smokers here mainly debate and regret (me not being one of them) is not the very recent poor harvests (which we are only starting to see in the latest production) but a perceived major quality change (loss?) around the end of the 90s, when the Corojo and Criollo of old had been replaced by newer strains. However, I certainly share the stance, that it is very difficult to tell the determinant effects and parameters apart.

 

On 31.10.2017 at 12:34 AM, NSXCIGAR said:

Yes. This is something a lot of people fail to consider. The strains themselves can take decades to refine, let alone the trial and error of what regions produce what flavors used in what blends for these strains. The movement away from Crilollo and Corojo is only about 20-22 years past which is really not that much time in the scheme of things. This whole period of 1995-2020 has really been a rebuilding period that can and has occurred at various points in the history of Cuban tobacco.

I'm confident that at some point in the next 5-10 years major progress will be reached as things have, on the whole, generally steadily improved since 2000. The 2017 crop is a huge opportunity for information gathering that was much needed and will ostensibly expedite the process of refining the strains and blends.

Indeed, I concur. In addition, what also needs be understood is that in tobacco, keeping and maintaining an existing strain can be almost as difficult and demanding as is developing a new strain. That's because, e.g. quite different to viticulture or pomiculture where there one can work with clones (asexually reproduced progeny, keepig the exact same genome), in tobacco this is not possible (or has not been for the most part). Being an annual plant, tobacco has always to be replanted through its seed. That means it is always subject to a sexual reproduction process. And there, you need to continually and painstakingly check whether you still got the desired strain's characteristics. While maintaining their sensory properties, at the same time one has to make sure that plants keep their health, disease resistance, growth properties and fertility etc.. Seed production and maintaining strain continuation therefore is an elaborate task of permanent selection and back and forth crossing (crosspollination) between material from different donor plants in order to keep desired characteristics.

Therefore, in essence, it is in fact quite unlikely that e.g. the Corojo seed used in 1960 has been the exact same Corojo as developed in 1948. And the Corojo from the early 1990s again has not been an exact copy of the 1960s or even a later 80s version - can't be. (unless you had kept a portion of the original seed used in those particular years...). What I want to say by all that is this: The so often heard notion of regret towards the loss of "the original" strains, and that it all had been so much better "in the old days" appears - to me - a slight bit skewed, and perhaps also to a degree driven by a somehow nostalgic romanticisation in the historical retrospect.

There have always been good and bad harvests, with good and bad crop qualities. It is extremely difficult to precisely ascribe that to the use of certain tobacco strains alone. In the final product, the raw tobacco, there is only so much that can truly be attributed to the particular strain itself (which is also what makes development of new strains so laborious, as mentioned above). Much of the final properties is subject to the very particular conditions during a certain growing season. And it is one of the major difficulties to find out in the final product after all those influencing variables - from weather conditions over cultivation to the different production steps - which of the final tobacco properties is truly to be attributed to a particular strain and which to those (manifold) other variables (even the most "perfect" strain planted in the "wrong" year, not adequately cultivated and processed will yield subpar tobacco).

That all leads me to wonder whether the old, original Corojo and Criollo strains would really do so well under today's conditions as we may like to think. I am not at all convinced. Perhaps apart from their low resistance to diseases they might even not be sensorically compelling. Will say, this whole process is never static. Has not been between the 40s to the late 90s and won't be in the future.

As far as the current research into new tobacco strains goes, I'll keep me an open-minded attitude to the new things that are to come and are coming from Cuba. And I feel in so far confirmed in my trusting as there are a lot of cigars coming out of Cuba, from production following to the turn of the century, that still have to offer some excellent qualities. I am basically cautiously optimistic about that.

[PigFish]

Goo, this has largely been my position. I don't really believe that the current strain is the culprit for taste maladies.

There are, or have been those claiming to use Cuban 'seed' abroad, yet the cigars don't taste the same. Here is where I will stop, because I am over my head. There is certainly a difference, yet stating that this is the 'prime' difference, that one is/was 'better' than another, appears to my laymen's eyes, as more collector puffing!!!

I am one of the many that bemoans the loss of the 90's with regards to Cuban cigars. Was it the tobacco? I think not. It was the rolling methodology and the vitota range that I attribute to my affinity for the '90s cigar. I think if they put the same care into a cab of Ramon Allones Coronas today, they would be every bit as good as yesteryear. Different...? Sure, but great, none the less. Put more tobacco in it and worry less about the boxes and bands. Put the emphasis on everyday cigars, and not on speculated collector's items.

Well written and represented amigo!

-Piggy

[Fugu]

Add to that - intended or not... - blend changes and your (read: smoker's) analysis is quickly bound for going astray.

[BrightonCorgi]

Have there been any changes to fertilizer, tilling/tending, or curing since the 90's?  How much does tobacco reflect its terrior? 

[NSXCIGAR]

6 hours ago, BrightonCorgi said:

Have there been any changes to fertilizer, tilling/tending, or curing since the 90's?  How much does tobacco reflect its terrior? 

Officially only changes in processing/curing have been acknowledged as far as I'm aware. The rumor has been that curing is now done at higher temps but the actual nature of the changes have not been confirmed, just that there have been "changes" since around 2000. As Cuba is famous for its use of 100% organic fertilizers for tobacco (manure, fish guts etc.) it's probable that nothing has changed in that regard as well as tilling and tending as I've read nothing about upgrades to equipment or techniques. 

[mcbeyond]

Very interesting discussion.

I am young to the cigar game, so I don't have anything to add advice-wise. I will be trying different techniques to age my collection and compare the results. There doesn't seem to be a lot of consensus on the internet at least, but if MRN runs in circles who favor vintage smokes and says that there is consensus about the humidity, there must be something there.

I just wanted to add a bit about the relationship between temperature, ambient moisture and relative humidity. Those who said that if you take your sticks out of an 80 degree environment and stick it into a wine cellar at 55 degrees there will relative humidity spike are correct. The moisture in the air will condense easier at lower temperatures.

However, someone said that the lower temperature counterbalances the low humidity. This is not correct. If you can successfully get the temperature of the cigars down to 55 degrees and get the relative humidity down to 55-60% as MRN recommends, then there is very little moisture in the air....less moisture than there would be at 55-60% humidity and room temperature. So relative to moisture in the air, the low temperature intensifies the effect of the low relative humidity.

With regard to oxygen, I am not a fan of the bitter oxidized tobacco flavor at all, and started sealing my boxes for aging several years ago with positive results.

[Philc2001]

On 10/31/2017 at 9:08 PM, PigFish said:

Goo, this has largely been my position. I don't really believe that the current strain is the culprit for taste maladies.

There are, or have been those claiming to use Cuban 'seed' abroad, yet the cigars don't taste the same. Here is where I will stop, because I am over my head. There is certainly a difference, yet stating that this is the 'prime' difference, that one is/was 'better' than another, appears to my laymen's eyes, as more collector puffing!!!

I am one of the many that bemoans the loss of the 90's with regards to Cuban cigars. Was it the tobacco? I think not. It was the rolling methodology and the vitota range that I attribute to my affinity for the '90s cigar. I think if they put the same care into a cab of Ramon Allones Coronas today, they would be every bit as good as yesteryear. Different...? Sure, but great, none the less. Put more tobacco in it and worry less about the boxes and bands. Put the emphasis on everyday cigars, and not on speculated collector's items.

Well written and represented amigo!

-Piggy

Does anyone think the overture between the picking of tobacco in the farmer's field and the roller's table have anything to do with the flavor and smoking experience? 

I know flavor is often closely tied to the plant, the climate, the earth, etc. But as I understand it, much has changed in the past 20 years beyond those things, including the cultivation, curing, and various preparation details on the journey from field to roller's table.  How much of that do you think influences the flavor and smoking experience?

[CaptainQuintero]

On 01/11/2017 at 6:12 PM, BrightonCorgi said:

Have there been any changes to fertilizer, tilling/tending, or curing since the 90's?  How much does tobacco reflect its terrior? 

I think the has been the start of introducing humidity/temp controlled curing/fermentation barns. Hector Luis Prieto (spelling) I think had the first one a few years ago

[Sean3]

...And now it's 4:50am, what the hell happened?  Terrific thread JohnS!  Goodnight all.

[Colt45]

15 hours ago, Philc2001 said:

Does anyone think the overture between the picking of tobacco in the farmer's field and the roller's table have anything to do with the flavor and smoking experience? 

How much of that do you think influences the flavor and smoking experience?

I imagine that every step in the process has, and has always had, an impact on the final product.

[BrightonCorgi]

13 hours ago, CaptainQuintero said:

I think the has been the start of introducing humidity/temp controlled curing/fermentation barns. Hector Luis Prieto (spelling) I think had the first one a few years ago

I read some detailed articles on this like 15 years ago that inline with what you said and more, but for the life of me cannot find them online.

Habanos needs to promote the terrior in their cigar blends, not keep it a secret.  Bringing the consumer closer to the product and how it's made builds even stronger brand loyalty.  It's not like someone else can just set up in Cuba and start mimicking Montecristo.  How they ferment-cure leaves and where they leaves come from does not need to be a secret.  Just like it's not a secret for 1st Growth wines.

[Fugu]

19 hours ago, Philc2001 said:

Does anyone think the overture between the picking of tobacco in the farmer's field and the roller's table have anything to do with the flavor and smoking experience? 

You bet it has, every single step! The time segment you are indicating encompasses virtually all production steps following (and including) harvest. So, how could it not? Starting with the precise timing of picking the different leaves - that alone will already have a huge influence on plant compounds in the leaf.

[Philc2001]

6 minutes ago, Fugu said:

You bet it has, every single step! The time segment you are indicating encompasses virtually all production steps following (and including) harvest. So, how could it not? Starting with the precise timing of picking the different leaves - that alone will already have a huge influence on plant compounds in the leaf.

In my mind, the process that starts after picking and before it reaches the rolling table seems to be where the Cubans have made the most significant changes over the past 20 years. I think the jury is still out on much of the process in terms of long term aging and smoking potential. There are many critics of these updates, claiming the Cubans have pushed the tobacco, so to speak, to make a more approachable and smokable product ready to smoke immediately from shipping date. I must admit that young production seems to smoke pretty well. The question still remains whether this generation of cigars will have the legs to achieve the greatness of cigars born in the 80's and 90's. 

[JohnS]

10 hours ago, Sean3 said:

...And now it's 4:50am, what the hell happened?  Terrific thread JohnS!  Goodnight all.

It's that sort of thread, isn't it. Fix yourself a long espresso, light up a Churchill or Double Corona and start at page 1!

[BrightonCorgi]

1 hour ago, Philc2001 said:

 There are many critics of these updates, claiming the Cubans have pushed the tobacco, so to speak, to make a more approachable and smokable product ready to smoke immediately from shipping date. I must admit that young production seems to smoke pretty well. The question still remains whether this generation of cigars will have the legs to achieve the greatness of cigars born in the 80's and 90's. 

Sounds similar to the CA wine industry making over ripe, ready to drink wines, or the Parkerization of wines to cater to "the now" rather than "the later".

[El Presidente]

3 minutes ago, JohnS said:

It's that sort of thread, isn't it. Fix yourself a long espresso, light up a Churchill or Double Corona and start at page 1!

Great thread John.  Only one member permanently  punted and one suspended 

.....don't worry, it has only improved the IQ of FOH