BBF Going Out Problems

[CrankYanker]

On 9/27/2017 at 11:25 PM, feral said:

Did you mention the box date on the box?

I recently had a similar experience with a BBF ETP Mar 17 HP and received on July 25. They had just under a month acclimation in my humidor at 62 rh. Wonky burn line, went out 3 or 4 times flavors were there but muddled and harsh. I chalked it up to the youth of the sticks. Perhaps too much moisture still trapped in the middle of the bunching based on how the center of the bunch was burning slower than the rest making an odd ash.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I ordered from the 24:24 on August 27th and only got a quarter of a box to try.  I didn't save the description so I am unsure of the code and date. I have a box that should be here this week though.

[feral]

Oh right they're probably March or May of this year production. Young but will be great in a few months.
Thanks for the reply.

[CrankYanker]

Oh right they're probably March or May of this year production. Young but will be great in a few months.
Thanks for the reply.

I just got my 62% RH box going tonight so I transferred them over to there.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[CrankYanker]

Update on my experimenting. I dry boxed from 2 to 5 days on a couple of sticks depending on my time to smoke them. Dry box in an old Monte box with 58% RH Boveda. 

RASS ROTT

- not much flavor. Lots of toasted tobacco. Really fresh but band came straight off. 2 days dry boxed 

Trinidad Reyes (a week in humidor)

- 2 days dry boxed. Didn't get any cake flavor like before. Lots of toasted tobacco. Needs more time at higher rh% 

H Upmann Half Corona (two weeks in humidor)

- 3 and 5 days dry boxed great tasting cigar. Lots of cream and toasted tobacco.  Some sweet notes. My dad said it was the best cigar he's ever had. 

PLPC (two days in humidor)

- 3 days dry boxed notes of sweetness from the start. Really enjoyable cigar.  My wife took a couple of draws and she really enjoyed it.  Can't wait to see how these age over the years. 

Monte #2 (40 days in humidor)

- 4 days dry boxed. I had one ROTT and it was great. The humidor and dry boxing elevated this cigar. A lot of creamy notes through the whole cigar. Did not go out once and held a great sense ash. 

My overall thoughts on dry boxing. Could be great to get cigars down ROTT to a lower RH%. This still makes the cigar taste fresh out of the box. After humidor aging then dry boxing really elevated the cigar. Easy to light. Easy on the draw to get lots of smoke.  I believe dry boxing helps keep the cigar lit longer not to mention a denser ash and being able to enjoy a cigar for longer. I am going to try another experiment once I have more cigars aged over 30 days. Hope this helps. 

 

 

[Guest Nekhyludov]

2 hours ago, CrankYanker said:

Dry box in an old Monte box with 58% RH Boveda. 

I'm sure there are hundreds of different opinions here on dry boxing, but for me, I wouldn't consider it dry boxing to put 9 well-humidified sticks in a box with a humidification device - even a 58%. My view of dry boxing is that it should allow the cigar to really release some moisture into an enclosed, non-humidified container. I would expect there to be a little too much ambient humidity in that box, between the Boveda and the other sticks. 

FWIW, I dry box one or two cigars at a time in cedar travel humidor, with no humidification device at all. Just my two cents.

[CrankYanker]

7 minutes ago, Nekhyludov said:

I'm sure there are hundreds of different opinions here on dry boxing, but for me, I wouldn't consider it dry boxing to put 9 well-humidified sticks in a box with a humidification device - even a 58%. My view of dry boxing is that it should allow the cigar to really release some moisture into an enclosed, non-humidified container. I would expect there to be a little too much ambient humidity in that box, between the Boveda and the other sticks. 

FWIW, I dry box one or two cigars at a time in cedar travel humidor, with non humidification device at all. Just my two cents.

That's why I wanted to experiment. Never done dry boxing so just thought I'd try it while I was making a weekend trip. I will have to try one or two only as well to see if it changes it at all. I know I have read people try to dry box at a lower RH% in an old cigar box so that's what I went off of. Thanks for the advice. I appreciate it. 

[cfc1016]

On 9/25/2017 at 4:53 PM, Philc2001 said:

I had a similar problem yesterday with a Fonseca No. 1. It snuffed out about half way, and it was tough to keep lit from there on. The draw was fine, there wasn't any knots in the roll, but it just would not burn. The cigar had been acclimated in my humidor at 63% RH for several months, and it came from the same box and same location in the humidor as the one I smoked a week ago, which burned beautifully and tasted superb. The only thing I could think of that would cause this was the ambient RH, which was near 90% and 90F yesterday, versus about 65% and 86F last week. I'm thinking the humidity in the air basically accumulates in the cigar as you smoke until it becomes damp and unable to burn. 

I'm in northern virginia. 90%/90F is one of the more comfortable summer days we'll get around here. Hell... It got to 86F and the average humidity was 87% YESTERDAY.

This is something I deal with on the regular. Sometimes, the only thing I can do, as I can't smoke in my house, is drive around smoking in the car with the AC on and windows cracked

Keeping cigars at lower humidity before smoking definitely helps though.

On 9/25/2017 at 11:58 PM, Pharmacovigilant said:

Humidity Bro. If your humi is north of 65%, then try dry boxing a day or two before firing up. As you appear relatively new to this forum, you may not yet have seen many posts that describe the benefits of storage at lower RH than what is usually suggested in the in NC realm. It took me a while to figure this out, but dropping my storage humi down has paid off in spades. Cheers!

I don't "dry box" but I do have two humidors - one for longer term storage and one for 'soon to be smoked' cigars.

 

The first is a standard ~200 cigar humidor that I keep between ~64-68%. I get a lot of swings because of the unavoidably high humidity where I live. Even with the AC running and a dehumidifier, The humidity in my house (basement apartment in northern virginia) stays atleast in the 70s%. I'm going through a lot more dry KL than bovedas, if ya catch my drift.

 

The other box is a small wineador (6 bottle unit) that I keep 3 boxes in. I just take the top plates off of dress boxes and place them on the original shelves (I don't have a fancy-dancy setup with all the cedar shelving etc). This leaves a lot of airspace for good circulation in there, and all the cigars in the box are freely exposed to that airflow. It seems that keeping the temp lower helps me maintain a more stable RH. I keep this box at ~60-62%. All the cigars I smoke out of here burn a lot better and have more clean flavors. I don't smoke out of the 64-68% box anymore.

On 9/26/2017 at 12:16 PM, Buck14 said:

While I agree that Shipping/Travel does affect your cigars I disagree with the premise that cigars always taste poor ROTT - that has not been my experience at all.  I got a box of PARTY SHORTS a few months ago, have smoked maybe 12 of them and the best two I have had was ROTT and the day after ROTT.  I don't want to miss an opportunity to smoke cigars when they are tasting great.  IMHO I would smoke one ROTT, not a big sacrifice, and if it's great keep smoking, if not wait 14-30 days and try again.  Still no good, lay em down 6 months, 1 year, etc. to they hit the sweet spot.

I almost always smoke a cigar ROTT - atleast when I'm buying boxes anyway. I've bought a couple of harder-to-find 5ers from individuals and those I generally still haven't touched. I usually have my boxes vacuum sealed for their journey. This definitely seems to improve their ROTT performance - atleast in that they haven't dealt with the crazy RH swings that they would have otherwise - including sponging up all the swamp moisture here in the dc area.

I had party habaneros come in just the other day. JUN 17 code (yup only 3 months old), straight out of the bag, straight off the mail truck... DELICIOUS. So yeah... it's a crapshoot. Some cigars are fantastic ROTT. Some are disgusting. My general practice? Buy lots of good cheapies for smoking ROTT and let the really good stuff sit.

On 9/28/2017 at 9:36 AM, havanaclub said:

 

Got the same box code from same lot here. Had one fairly ROTT and the burn was off and did go out. I agree flavours seemed there but muddled. Young cigar.
My disappointment was that about 5-6 sticks were severely underfilled which will definitely make for a poor burn and smoke experience. Did you have bad underfilled sticks in the ETP Mar 17 box?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I have a box of SOM MAR 17 that I got 3 weeks ago. Smoked one ROTT. It was wet and bland, bordering on bitter, but you could tell what it was *supposed* to be under all that. I smoked another one a few days later. It was still a bit muddled - like you guys mentioned - but burned much better and was a distinct improvement over the first. I've since gotten my mini wineador stable at lower RH than my main humi, and have had a few of them sitting in there for a couple weeks now. Maybe I'll fire one up today...

 

-CSquared

[PigFish]

... did the cigar tunnel?

I am not a big buyer on the high rH ambient argument. The temperature of the foot while you are drawing on it can be north of 1000F. There is not going to be much water in 1000F air!

It is one thing to look at what appears to be obvious, but when you investigate what actually happens at the foot of the cigar, things look a bit different. Take a drop of water and trop it in a 500F frying pan. What happens to it... 1000F water is not contained easily, and frankly it is not going to bond to your 750F ash at the foot. 

Just food for thought!

-tP

[shaffer22]

On 9/26/2017 at 2:55 PM, Danimalia said:

Same here. I don't judge a cigar based off a negative ROTT smoke, but I have had plenty of great ROTT smokes as well. I look at it as a no-lose situation. It's all upside if you have the right attitude. If the smoke is good, great! If not, you're now motivated to really let them sleep for at least a month or so.

This is what I do. If it’s good ROTT, then great, I’m glad I didn’t wait. If not, then it’s not a big deal. I’ll put it away for a while and see what it’s like in a few months. 

[shaffer22]

24 minutes ago, PigFish said:

... did the cigar tunnel?

I am not a big buyer on the high rH ambient argument. The temperature of the foot while you are drawing on it can be north of 1000F. There is not going to be much water in 1000F air!

It is one thing to look at what appears to be obvious, but when you investigate what actually happens at the foot of the cigar, things look a bit different. Take a drop of water and trop it in a 500F frying pan. What happens to it... 1000F water is not contained easily, and frankly it is not going to bond to your 750F ash at the foot. 

Just food for thought!

-tP

I think it’s not so much what’s happening at the foot but rather what’s happening further down the cigar. 

We all know that storage at higher humidity can affect burn. So of course a cigar that has collected moisture is going to burn differently. The question is whether a cigar can collect enough moisture fast enough for high ambient RH to affect burn. I’m not sure. 

What I do know is that anecdotally my cigars burn worse when the ambient RH is high. I’m not sure what’s going on.

One theory is that the cigar is collecting moisture.

Another theory is that a high ambient RH leads to lower oxygen content in the air, which affects the burn. It’s similar to smoking a cigar at high elevation. Keeping my cigar lit in the Peruvian Andes was near impossible. I think this theory is more likely to explain a cigar that won’t stay lit than a cigar that burns unevenly.  

[PigFish]

1 minute ago, shaffer22 said:

I think it’s not so much what’s happening at the foot but rather what’s happening further down the cigar. 

We all know that storage at higher humidity can affect burn. So of course a cigar that has collected moisture is going to burn differently. The question is whether a cigar can collect enough moisture fast enough for high ambient RH to affect burn. I’m not sure. 

What I do know is that anecdotally my cigars burn worse when the ambient RH is high. I’m not sure what’s going on.

One theory is that the cigar is collecting moisture.

Another theory is that a high ambient RH leads to lower oxygen content in the air, which affects the burn. It’s similar to smoking a cigar at high elevation. Keeping my cigar lit in the Peruvian Andes was near impossible. I think this theory is more likely to explain a cigar that won’t stay lit than a cigar that burns unevenly.  

Did the cigar tunnel...? Was the ash convex or concave? The question is still out there! I am curious.

Cigar condition is about percent moisture content.... NOT JUST rH. Water must bond to tobacco to make tobacco 'wet' unless you are dousing it with liquid water. I just happen to know quite a bit about the hygroscopic nature of tobacco and how the system works. Temperature then, has a lot to do with whether tobacco will bond with water vapor.

Then there is question of purging the cigar. When one purges a cigar with water vapor filled air from one's lungs, he/she also saturates the tobacco (potentially). The point is, when air is purged, the air is not super heated as it does not pass the foot before it hits downstream tobacco, as downstream tobacco becomes 'upstream' from the perspective of the purge in the relationship to the super heated foot.

Do you have a habit of purging the cigars you smoke?

Density altitude is another issue altogether.

Cheers! -Piggy

[shaffer22]

52 minutes ago, PigFish said:

Did the cigar tunnel...? Was the ash convex or concave? The question is still out there! I am curious.

Cigar condition is about percent moisture content.... NOT JUST rH. Water must bond to tobacco to make tobacco 'wet' unless you are dousing it with liquid water. I just happen to know quite a bit about the hygroscopic nature of tobacco and how the system works. Temperature then, has a lot to do with whether tobacco will bond with water vapor.

Then there is question of purging the cigar. When one purges a cigar with water vapor filled air from one's lungs, he/she also saturates the tobacco (potentially). The point is, when air is purged, the air is not super heated as it does not pass the foot before it hits downstream tobacco, as downstream tobacco becomes 'upstream' from the perspective of the purge in the relationship to the super heated foot.

Do you have a habit of purging the cigars you smoke?

Density altitude is another issue altogether.

Cheers! -Piggy

Certainly agree. I think a lot of this would make interesting subjects for the new FOHrensics project. 

[Philc2001]

47 minutes ago, PigFish said:

Did the cigar tunnel...? Was the ash convex or concave? The question is still out there! I am curious.

Cigar condition is about percent moisture content.... NOT JUST rH. Water must bond to tobacco to make tobacco 'wet' unless you are dousing it with liquid water. I just happen to know quite a bit about the hygroscopic nature of tobacco and how the system works. Temperature then, has a lot to do with whether tobacco will bond with water vapor.

Then there is question of purging the cigar. When one purges a cigar with water vapor filled air from one's lungs, he/she also saturates the tobacco (potentially). The point is, when air is purged, the air is not super heated as it does not pass the foot before it hits downstream tobacco, as downstream tobacco becomes 'upstream' from the perspective of the purge in the relationship to the super heated foot.

Do you have a habit of purging the cigars you smoke?

Density altitude is another issue altogether.

Cheers! -Piggy

Hi Ray - in my case the cigars that I have trouble with are not tunneling, the ash is generally convex (pointing toward the foot). I seldom purge, and certainly not before the cigar has already snuffed out. I keep two different hygrometers in my Wineador, and they consistently read 62-63% RH. Now I don't have scientific evidence, but when I take a cigar and smoke it at the nearby air conditioned cigar bar they almost always smoke perfectly. But out on my patio at 90+ RH, the very next day, same box, same row in the box, and it will burn very poorly. Coincidence? Maybe, but it seems too consistent to be mere coincidence.

I know what you're saying, and I think it makes sense. Although I don't purge I do have a tendency to let the cigar hang on my lips, so I may be breathing moisture into the cigar. I'll have to make a conscious effort to stop doing that. It may also be that the temperature inside is in mid 70s, while outside is 90+, so there may be some condensation at play. I have yet to crack this nut though. 

[PigFish]

24 minutes ago, Philc2001 said:

Hi Ray - in my case the cigars that I have trouble with are not tunneling, the ash is generally convex (pointing toward the foot). I seldom purge, and certainly not before the cigar has already snuffed out. I keep two different hygrometers in my Wineador, and they consistently read 62-63% RH. Now I don't have scientific evidence, but when I take a cigar and smoke it at the nearby air conditioned cigar bar they almost always smoke perfectly. But out on my patio at 90+ RH, the very next day, same box, same row in the box, and it will burn very poorly. Coincidence? Maybe, but it seems too consistent to be mere coincidence.

I know what you're saying, and I think it makes sense. Although I don't purge I do have a tendency to let the cigar hang on my lips, so I may be breathing moisture into the cigar. I'll have to make a conscious effort to stop doing that. It may also be that the temperature inside is in mid 70s, while outside is 90+, so there may be some condensation at play. I have yet to crack this nut though. 

... while it appears that I deny everyone else's theories, I am not actually. I am simply looking at evidence outside the box... People don't complain about this in Cuba... They have been smoking cigars in the tropics for generations...!

I am not denying conventional thought. I am actually asking, "are you covering up (unintentionally) construction problems by blaming environment?" It is not an accusation, it is a question...

I have seen Cuban cigar smokers do this for decades, so I am now somewhat programmed to look for it.

Thanks for the reply. -Ray

[Philc2001]

3 hours ago, PigFish said:

... while it appears that I deny everyone else's theories, I am not actually. I am simply looking at evidence outside the box... People don't complain about this in Cuba... They have been smoking cigars in the tropics for generations...!

I am not denying conventional thought. I am actually asking, "are you covering up (unintentionally) construction problems by blaming environment?" It is not an accusation, it is a question...

I have seen Cuban cigar smokers do this for decades, so I am now somewhat programmed to look for it.

Thanks for the reply. -Ray

Gotcha Ray.  

Construction issues are nothing new to CCs, so we can't rule that out. And good point about the tropics. It's also possible, I suppose, that some tobacco strains may be less flammable than others. I recall burn issues with some of the early habana 2000 wrapper. 

If we are in fact dealing with construction issues, then it is has certainly confounded me because I can't seem to spot it or feel it, and I can't detect it in the cigar's draw. About the only thing I have noticed is it is more common in the bigger, longer cigars, and less so in skinny and shorter cigars. Still looking for clues.

[PigFish]

11 minutes ago, Philc2001 said:

Gotcha Ray.  

Construction issues are nothing new to CCs, so we can't rule that out. And good point about the tropics. It's also possible, I suppose, that some tobacco strains may be less flammable than others. I recall burn issues with some of the early habanda 2000 wrapper. 

If we are in fact dealing with construction issues, then it is has certainly confounded me because I can't seem to spot it or feel it, and I can't detect it in the cigar's draw. About the only thing I have noticed is it is more common in the bigger, longer cigars, and less so in skinny and shorter cigars. Still looking for clues.

I have noticed something that I do un-conscientiously. I actually pressurize the cigar slightly, pushing some smoke out the foot prior to drawing. I don't know that it causes me any issues, but I have noticed doing it nonetheless.

Knowing that I can put a lot of wet air though a cigar by purging, I no longer really practice it. I don't know that there is a benefit of fanning the foot via pumping the unsmoked cigar with a bunch of hot humid air. I know what I am doing verses what 'I may not be accomplishing' via the act.

We all have our beliefs!!!

Good conversation. -R

[OB1]

3 minutes ago, PigFish said:

I have noticed something that I do un-conscientiously. I actually pressurize the cigar slightly, pushing some smoke out the foot prior to drawing. I don't know that it causes me any issues, but I have noticed doing it nonetheless

I noticed in your videos a bit of smokE before you draw... wasn't sure what was causing it. Now I know.

[PigFish]

1 minute ago, OB1 said:

I noticed in your videos a bit of smokE before you draw... wasn't sure what was causing it. Now I know.

... fat jowls and being purveyor of hot air! -LOL That is how I figure it!!!

-Piggy