Nicaraguan tobacco in cuban cigars?

[dimi68]

What Cuba should be importing is NC rollers..!!

[Fugu]

In fact, Cuba is doing that with coffee. Most of the Cuban-grown coffee, bringing in a lot of foreign money, is too precious to be consumed by the local population. So they are indeed importing vast amounts of cheaper qualities from overseas. So, in priciple the same would be conceivable for tobacco, wouldn't it?

Only there is one problem here - why should they want to do that, to what avail? Critical and limiting in Cuba are only the export-grade qualities and in particular wrappers. On the other hand there is more than enough tobacco grown (and grown cheaply) on the island for domestic consumption. So, concealment is just not the point - importing tobacco as a replacement for local consumption simply wouldn't make any sense. Because that product isn't meant to be exported anyway, so a swap would not be saving precious tobacco for convertible money. There simply is no competition between those two goods.

Therefore, if at all (that is, if there were a shortage) it would, like in coffee, be "low grade" qualities used in domestic market products and for the cigarette industry only. Not clandestinely blended into export-grade cigars. That'd be killer to their business would they do that. And, can someone please explain - why should Cuba want to blend an inferior product into their cigars? There would have to be a cost advantage then. But for export-grade Nic or Honduran leaf they would effectively have to "pay" more than for their own tobacco (as Piggy and Smallclub addressed, cost of labour isn't limiting).

Insinuating they'd really want to cheat in the need of export leaf - before importing any subpar foreign 'tabooco' they could way easier and much safer secretly hide domestic-grade tobacco in premium sticks. Because - on top of all this - please take note of the very fact that today it's quite simple to identify the geographical origin of a certain product by isotope analysis (being done in wine and other produce almost routinely). So if there were but the tiniest spark of suspicion, such research would have been done long since by the importers. Who really thinks that'd be kept unoticed by the consumer should go back and stick with his Swishers.

Said it before, they may be commies but they aren't dummies. So, tinfoilers out there, could we try and return to staying in touch with reality, please.

N.B. There has always been exporting of unmanufactured raw tobacco from Cuba, e.g. for certain European manufacturers (low grade mainly), no secret. Likewise, importing of raw tobacco to Cuba is no secret.

[Smallclub]

36 minutes ago, magste said:

Regardless if its true or not ( and personally I don't care as long as I like the cigar), assuming it was true, this forum is probably the last place where it would be acknowledged... There is a bigger chance Trump and his fellow conservative farts acknowledge climate change...

Why are you so sure? What makes you think the members of this forum would deny a proven fact?

[Fugu]

1 hour ago, magste said:

this forum is probably the last place where it would be acknowledged...

Nonsense needs to be called nonsense. What's so surprising about the fact that the most expertise on Cuban cigars is being found on a forum about Cuban cigars?! 

[David88]

I can't see this being true as it just seems like a poor deal for the NC manufacturers. I assume from the original statement that it's just a straight swap but Cuba receive double what they give? If NC manufacturers can't advertise that they are using Cuban tobacco why would they bother doing this? I'm also sure there would have been some 'official' leaks and evidence to try and prove that they have a superior product. 

[prodigy]

Regardless if its true or not ( and personally I don't care as long as I like the cigar), assuming it was true, this forum is probably the last place where it would be acknowledged... There is a bigger chance Trump and his fellow conservative farts acknowledge climate change...

Please leave politics out of this. Your political opinions only discredit you to half of the forum...

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[RijkdeGooier]

There is no upside for the NC and a huge risk for Cubatabacco which could easily be proven by analysis. 

Occam's razor applies. 

[vladdraq]

i think s true, i just had some Siglo 6 from a trustful Mexican  source (he has family working at El Laquito) and they definitively have some nicaraguanish taste.

Ne has beautiful necklaces too.

 

[laficion]

Hi all,

 All that is needed is to prove it !!!!!!!!

Untill then, it's ONLY a B&M and N.C.makers BS  story to better sell thier cigars.

Guy

[JamesKPolkEsq]

4 hours ago, Fugu said:

Because - on top of all this - please take note of the very fact that today it's quite simple to identify the geographical origin of a certain product by isotope analysis (being done in wine and other produce almost routinely).

Very interesting! Thanks for the rabbit hole, never heard of NMR analysis of isotope ratios as an authentication tool for wine!

Here is a white paper on IRMS (Isotope Ratio Mass Spectrometery) / OA-ICOS (Off-Axis Integrated Cavity Output Spectroscopy)

Two problems with using these methodologies to identify regions of cigars:

1) These are useful on wines because they require a liquid matrix (IRMS uses pure CO2 diffusion into liquid to extract isotopes (gas exchange not viable for solids), OA-ICOS uses gas analysis (vaporized water / ethanol)). I don't think either would be suitable for a solid matrix

More importantly,

2) Cigars are dynamically exchanging analytes with the environment (ambient water) in a way that wine is not, altering the isotopic ratios of Oxygen and Hydrogen (the analytes for both methods) 

[vladdraq]

how can you identify regions by isotopes testing?

I know some of Kurniawan vintage wines have been identified through Cesium isotopes and came out fakes, because they carried an isotope generated by the 1945 atomic bombs, but for tobacco cropped in different regions can't see how?  

[earthson]

This rumor has been around for years and years.  As someone who came up on Nicaraguan and Dominican tobacco (and now smokes almost Cuban exclusively), I don't believe this. When I break off and have a Nicarguan or Dominican, it's bloody apparent. Terroir. Terroir. Terroir!

Other than maybe sneaking some volado into a fat RG, I just don't see how people would not taste the difference.

[Elvis]

2 hours ago, JamesKPolkEsq said:

Very interesting! Thanks for the rabbit hole, never heard of NMR analysis of isotope ratios as an authentication tool for wine!

Here is a white paper on IRMS (Isotope Ratio Mass Spectrometery) / OA-ICOS (Off-Axis Integrated Cavity Output Spectroscopy)

Two problems with using these methodologies to identify regions of cigars:

1) These are useful on wines because they require a liquid matrix (IRMS uses pure CO2 diffusion into liquid to extract isotopes (gas exchange not viable for solids), OA-ICOS uses gas analysis (vaporized water / ethanol)). I don't think either would be suitable for a solid matrix

More importantly,

2) Cigars are dynamically exchanging analytes with the environment (ambient water) in a way that wine is not, altering the isotopic ratios of Oxygen and Hydrogen (the analytes for both methods) 

This rabbit hole is where you will actually find a rabbit:

Characterization of Cigar Tobaccos by Gas Chromatographic/Mass Spectrometric Analysis of Nonvolatile Organic Acids: Application to the Authentication of Cuban Cigars

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/jf001210y

@Ginseng provides an excellent summary here:

http://www.friendsofhabanos.com/forum/topic/93307-cuban-vs-the-rest-chemical-analysis/?tab=comments#comment-93321

[Fugu]

Haha, thanks @Elvis, excellent!

 

[prodigy]

I didn't realize that starting this thread would stir up so much information. Thanks for all the info!

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[Fugu]

2 hours ago, JamesKPolkEsq said:

Very interesting! Thanks for the rabbit hole, never heard of NMR analysis of isotope ratios as an authentication tool for wine!

No rabbit hole to see at all (if you keep being open-minded about it)!

If you haven't heard of its use in wine authentication (being used in a range of foodstuff and drugs actually), I'd suggest reading this wiki-entry for a brief introduction to the matter. Not on me to give you a lesson in stable isotopes analysis, but just in brief:

A standard methodology for a vast range of tasks, not just related to location but also to time (e.g. palaeoclimatology), by analysing the (time and place-) specific proportions of stable isotopes of certain lighter elements in a sample. The application is of course independent of whether you got to analyse solid matter, a fluid or a gas. In "our" case, C and N e.g. will be chemically incorporated and fixated into the organic matter of tobacco, i.e. cellulose, peptides, fatty acids, isoprenoids, secondary metabolites of course such as nicotine etc., etc.. (a quite prominent example for gases e.g. is the analysis of gases trapped in ice core samples). So those will not change in the finished product. You will even be able to find in the plant matter reflected the elements of the specific fertilizers that have been used (P, K; and in turn again even their origins (in addition even radionuclides are being used as trace markers)). Among others, forensic or ecological questions are being addressed with this today. The area of application is virtually unlimited. So just take it trustful as a given that such is being done.

2 hours ago, JamesKPolkEsq said:

never heard of NMR analysis of isotope ratios

Methodology of the analysis is based on different forms of mass spectrometry, not NMR.

 

1 hour ago, vladdraq said:

how can you identify regions by isotopes testing?

I know some of Kurniawan vintage wines have been identified through Cesium isotopes and came out fakes, because they carried an isotope generated by the 1945 atomic bombs, but for tobacco cropped in different regions can't see how?

For this purpose, you mainly use the composition of stable isotopes (of C, N, O, S e.g.), not radionuclids. (but see above)

[vladdraq]

ok, thank you guys!

here s the main conclusion:

Nicotinic acid, succinic acid, glyceric acid, malic acid, pyroglutamic acid, threonic acid, citric acid, uracil, and an unidentified acid were reproducibly quantified in tobacco samples. Principal component analysis (PCA) of the acid profiles of the filler tobaccos of 18 Cuban cigars and 31 non-Cuban cigars shows separation of the two groups, indicating that the acid profiles are potentially useful in the authentication of Cuban cigars. 

 

[vladdraq]

Just now, vladdraq said:

ok, thank you guys!

here s the main conclusion:

Nicotinic acid, succinic acid, glyceric acid, malic acid, pyroglutamic acid, threonic acid, citric acid, uracil, and an unidentified acid were reproducibly quantified in tobacco samples. Principal component analysis (PCA) of the acid profiles of the filler tobaccos of 18 Cuban cigars and 31 non-Cuban cigars shows separation of the two groups, indicating that the acid profiles are potentially useful in the authentication of Cuban cigars. 

 

question is- those 18 Cubans were bought at an LCDH ? :-)))

 

[PigFish]

I have this article around here somewhere. I will see if I can find it.

-Piggy

[cigaraholic]

When my mouth tastes like a dirty ashtray that storm troopers have marched thru I'll believe it.

[prodigy]

When my mouth tastes like a dirty ashtray that storm troopers have marched thru I'll believe it.

Are trying to say that all NC taste like dirty ashtrays? I find that hard to believe. Padron 1926, 1964, all family reserves, fuente opus x, fuente anejo, tasting room f55 quatro, and many others would all match up to a CC, IMO. that's like saying wine that's not from Napa is piss, or chocolate that's not from Belgium is doodoo. To each his own though, maybe your palate can detect things mine does not.

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[cigaraholic]

The cigars don't taste like dirty ashtrays.....my mouth taste like one when I'm finished.

[prodigy]

The cigars don't taste like dirty ashtrays.....my mouth taste like one when I'm finished.

Interesting. I've never had that happen to me, even after smoking really, really cheap NC. My wife would say my mouth tastes like a dirty ashtray regardless of what the origin is haha! I think it would be funny to do a blind tasting with one NC thrown in, and see just how many people are able to pick it out. I'm still early in my CC career, so I know I probably wouldn't be able to.

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[prodigy]

I did some research and this has been done, a lot haha. I've officially derailed my own thread. I think it's safe to say we are beating a dead horse here. Some good info came up, and I learned a little bit about the original question at hand. If a mod wants to remove this thread, or close it, please do so. No need to have this drag out and turn into something it shouldn't be. Thanks to everyone that had an opinion on the matter! This is truly an amazing community and I'm glad to be a part of it!

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[JamesKPolkEsq]

10 hours ago, Fugu said:

No rabbit hole to see at all (if you keep being open-minded about it)!

If you haven't heard of its use in wine authentication (being used in a range of foodstuff and drugs actually), I'd suggest reading this wiki-entry for a brief introduction to the matter. Not on me to give you a lesson in stable isotopes analysis, but just in brief:

A standard methodology for a vast range of tasks, not just related to location but also to time (e.g. palaeoclimatology), by analysing the (time and place-) specific proportions of stable isotopes of certain lighter elements in a sample. The application is of course independent of whether you got to analyse solid matter, a fluid or a gas. In "our" case, C and N e.g. will be chemically incorporated and fixated into the organic matter of tobacco, i.e. cellulose, peptides, fatty acids, isoprenoids, secondary metabolites of course such as nicotine etc., etc.. (a quite prominent example for gases e.g. is the analysis of gases trapped in ice core samples). So those will not change in the finished product. You will even be able to find in the plant matter reflected the elements of the specific fertilizers that have been used (P, K; and in turn again even their origins (in addition even radionuclides are being used as trace markers)). Among others, forensic or ecological questions are being addressed with this today. The area of application is virtually unlimited. So just take it trustful as a given that such is being done.

No, I understand the concept, I just didn't see a methodology that can be used with IR-MS or OA-ICOS (Off-Axis Integrated Cavity Output Spectroscopy) for anything other than Carbon, Hydrogen or Oxygen. Do you have any information about OA-ICOS being performed on N, P, K or S, I'd love to dork out about it...

Has experimental data proving a difference between Cuban tobacco and non-Cuban tobacco using isotopic differences been shown? If the methodology works, a difference in isotopic variations would still need to be established.

I haven't seen these data, if the method is feasible.

Quote

Methodology of the analysis is based on different forms of mass spectrometry, not NMR.

Sorry, left out the part where I did a cursory search and found this article about NMR and wine testing. Like I said, I went down the science rabbit hole! Neat stuff!

The GC-MS testing linked by @Elvis is awesome but it does raise some questions - the method can't distinguish between Cuban wrapper leaf and Non-Cuban wrapper leaf. I work closely with GC-MS daily, and I have a very good idea about the cost to develop and validate a GC-MS method like this (eleven analytes would be in the hundreds of thousands of dollars). Who did this work?

Anyone have a copy of the paper? I'd love to read it...