Nicaraguan tobacco in cuban cigars?

[NSXCIGAR]

23 hours ago, dimi68 said:

Well small amounts of cuban tobacco seems to find its way overseas to custom rollers!

My understanding is that only LCDHs are allotted raw tobacco and it is sent directly to the LCDH either ahead or behind of the LCDH roller's arrival. Raw tobacco is very, very tightly controlled and I'm not aware that any of it is making its way overseas outside of LCDHs. 

[El Presidente]

19 hours ago, magste said:

Regardless if its true or not ( and personally I don't care as long as I like the cigar), assuming it was true, this forum is probably the last place where it would be acknowledged... There is a bigger chance Trump and his fellow conservative farts acknowledge climate change...

Yes. we are full supporters of Cuba in all things. Quality has never been better. There has never been a better time in the Cuban cigar Industry. 

Regardless of the above moronic comment,  if there is proof......just a scintilla...then I would expect it to be posted all over FOH. 

For the time being, I expect plume to be found prior to evidence on NC tobacco in Cuban cigars.

[CaptainQuintero]

Just how Cuba operates shows it couldn't ever be true. All it would take is one photo/manifest from the docks/handlers/shipping workers from the last 20/30 years to provide evidence. It's never happened once. 

What's more likely, that every single person from the hundreds of thousands that would have been a link in the chain over the decades loves the Cuban government so much that they would never say a single thing. Or that it just doesn't happen?

[RijkdeGooier]

1 hour ago, magste said:

On 9-9-2017 at 1:44 PM, Smallclub said:

Why are you so sure? What makes you think the members of this forum would deny a proven fact?

I don't think. I know.

Well at least you got the first part correct. 

What part of @Bundwallah's guidance was unclear to you?

[Smallclub]

1 hour ago, magste said:

On 09/09/2017 at 1:44 PM, Smallclub said:

Why are you so sure? What makes you think the members of this forum would deny a proven fact?

I don't think. I know.

You know nothing Jon Snow. You must use a special filter when you read threads from this forum. If a piece of evidence were to emerge, it would be on this forum that the comments would be the most interesting.

[Fugu]

7 hours ago, JamesKPolkEsq said:

No, I understand the concept, I just didn't see a methodology that can be used with IR-MS or OA-ICOS (Off-Axis Integrated Cavity Output Spectroscopy) for anything other than Carbon, Hydrogen or Oxygen. Do you have any information about OA-ICOS being performed on N, P, K or S, I'd love to dork out about it...

Hi James, as you will know, the OA-ICOS you mention is only but one type of the different techniques of mass spectrometry, differing in sample preparation, fractionation, ionization, analyser and detector techniques. This technology had been evolved over the years and branching out widely with special adaptations to different tasks. But very basically, the stable isotopes ratio analysis can be done with all elements having two or more stable isotopes. P, by the way, not being one of them (I mentioned P because most phosphor-fertilizers (usually in NPK- or PK-formulas) have a specific composition that can also be identified by its N or K component and also further trace elements), but those mentioned, such as H, C, O, N, S are usually used for the determination of organic/organismic material.

7 hours ago, JamesKPolkEsq said:

The GC-MS testing linked by @Elvis is awesome but it does raise some questions - the method can't distinguish between Cuban wrapper leaf and Non-Cuban wrapper leaf.

To be noted that the study cited above is obviously not implementing a stable isotopes mass-ratio analysis (got no access to the full paper). Instead it is dealing with chromatographic and spectrometric profiling of a certain class of substances, as far as I can take from the abstract (more like a fingerprinting tech of the composition of those organo-acids). While fully viable, as it seems this approach will still reflect much of the genetics of a strain. By using stable isotopes'-ratio a discrimination between wrapper types of different origin will very likely be possible as well, since that technique doesn't look so much for a genetic "closeness" (while physiology will play a role as well, as organisms are e.g. known to be assimilating specific isotopes differently, leading to a biological fractionation of isotopes), as rather into the soil and water in which those plants have been grown in.

7 hours ago, JamesKPolkEsq said:

Has experimental data proving a difference between Cuban tobacco and non-Cuban tobacco using isotopic differences been shown? If the methodology works, a difference in isotopic variations would still need to be established.

I haven't seen such. But it is possible and done on a range of agrarian produce. So, I'd venture to guess it has been done in tobacco products as well meanwhile. But like you I would have to do a thorough searching, and also not everything in this sector is being published....

7 hours ago, JamesKPolkEsq said:

and I have a very good idea about the cost to develop and validate a GC-MS method like this (eleven analytes would be in the hundreds of thousands of dollars). Who did this work?

Has been done by the Canada Customs and Revenue Agency - so given the Canadian tobacco tax I'd say money is a non-issue here....

[JamesKPolkEsq]

4 hours ago, Fugu said:

Hi James, as you will know, the OA-ICOS you mention is only but one type of the different techniques of mass spectrometry, differing in sample preparation, fractionation, ionization, analyser and detector techniques. This technology had been evolved over the years and branching out widely with special adaptations to different tasks. But very basically, the stable isotopes ratio analysis can be done with all elements having two or more stable isotopes. P, by the way, not being one of them (I mentioned P because most phosphor-fertilizers (usually in NPK- or PK-formulas) have a specific composition that can also be identified by its N or K component and also further trace elements), but those mentioned, such as H, C, O, N, S are usually used for the determination of organic/organismic material.

To be noted that the study cited above is obviously not implementing a stable isotopes mass-ratio analysis (got no access to the full paper). Instead it is dealing with chromatographic and spectrometric profiling of a certain class of substances, as far as I can take from the abstract (more like a fingerprinting tech of the composition of those organo-acids). While fully viable, as it seems this approach will still reflect much of the genetics of a strain. By using stable isotopes'-ratio a discrimination between wrapper types of different origin will very likely be possible as well, since that technique doesn't look so much for a genetic "closeness" (while physiology will play a role as well, as organisms are e.g. known to be assimilating specific isotopes differently, leading to a biological fractionation of isotopes), as rather into the soil and water in which those plants have been grown in.

I haven't seen such. But it is possible and done on a range of agrarian produce. So, I'd venture to guess it has been done in tobacco products as well meanwhile. But like you I would have to do a thorough searching, and also not everything in this sector is being published....

Has been done by the Canada Customs and Revenue Agency - so given the Canadian tobacco tax I'd say money is a non-issue here....

Wild to think that the Canadian government sponsored a study like that. I know Health Canada is thorough with imports (much to my chagrin), but developing/validating a GC method to identify trace organic compounds in such a complex matrix (tobacco leaf) is a monumental task.  

I haven't seen any experimental evidence that shows an technique that can accurately ID tobacco by origin, although I would be happy to read all about anything on the matter. Can you link to something (non O / H) about isotyping analysis being used to identify agricultural products' origins? I haven't found any and I would love to take a gander... 

[Colt45]

9 hours ago, El Presidente said:

Regardless of the above moronic comment,

Is that you Ken?

[PigFish]

1 hour ago, Colt45 said:

Is that you Ken?

... don't think so. Ken would have liked that post!!! -LOL

Lets just say that the forum exhibits your typical bell curve, in almost all things! -Piggy

[Fugu]

2 hours ago, JamesKPolkEsq said:

I haven't seen any experimental evidence that shows an technique that can accurately ID tobacco by origin, although I would be happy to read all about anything on the matter. Can you link to something (non O / H) about isotyping analysis being used to identify agricultural products' origins? I haven't found any and I would love to take a gander...

 

Well, this is not really my prime field of interest, so I can't tell you offhand. But I did some quick searching for you, bringing up the following (just a selection):

 

You may take this recent review-paper in press as a starting point (full text with references), with a broader consideration of the state of the art of current methodology implemented in food authentication, incl. IRMS:

https://www.chem.bg.ac.rs/~dusankam/Analiza_hrane_16_17/1-s2.0-S0165993615301291-main.pdf

 

Another (full text) review on the authentication of food of animal origin:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1541-4337.12219/pdf

 

This here is another review on the geogr. tracing using multi-isotope analysis

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0924224405002190?via%3Dihub

or with special reference to DOP-issues, here:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0165993609001824

 

Another review from earlier this year on use of stable isotopes for the verification of declared geographical origin

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0924224416302771

 

And finally, three examples of original work for studies on different produce:

- wheat:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308814616308925

 

- here's one for coffee:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S030881461301011X

 

- and one for lentils, applying IRMS on all before mentioned elements, H, O, C, N, S

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308814615007426

 

Hope this will be of help!

 

P.S. What's the issue you are having with elements other than O and H?

[JamesKPolkEsq]

26 minutes ago, Fugu said:

 

Well, this is not really my prime field of interest, so I can't tell you offhand. But I did some quick searching for you, bringing up the following (just a selection):

 

You may take this recent review-paper in press as a starting point (full text with references), with a broader consideration of the state of the art of current methodology implemented in food authentication, incl. IRMS:

https://www.chem.bg.ac.rs/~dusankam/Analiza_hrane_16_17/1-s2.0-S0165993615301291-main.pdf

 

Another (full text) review on the authentication of food of animal origin:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1541-4337.12219/pdf

 

This here is another review on the geogr. tracing using multi-isotope analysis

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0924224405002190?via%3Dihub

or with special reference to DOP-issues, here:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0165993609001824

 

Another review from earlier this year on use of stable isotopes for the verification of declared geographical origin

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0924224416302771

 

And finally, three examples of original work for studies on different produce:

- wheat:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308814616308925

 

- here's one for coffee:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S030881461301011X

 

- and one for lentils, applying IRMS on all before mentioned elements, H, O, C, N, S

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308814615007426

 

Hope this will be of help!

 

P.S. What's the issue you are having with elements other than O and H?

Thanks for the links, much appreciated!

O / H get transferred from cigars to the environment (since dried tobacco is rather hygroscopic), so I would assume that it would be extremely difficult to prove that isotopic ratios come from plant growth, not gas exchange.

[Fugu]

It's only the O- and H-content of the dry matter being analysed, i.e. that portion chemically incorporated into molecules of plantal origin. Not water adsorbed hygroscopically. So no real issue analytically here.

[retrofail]

Atabey???

 

 

 

 

And yes, I say that in jest. Please don't hurt me!!

[Fugu]

4 hours ago, retrofail said:

Atabey???

Would sum it up perfectly, yep! 

[Fugu]

On 10.9.2017 at 8:33 AM, NSXCIGAR said:

Raw tobacco is very, very tightly controlled and I'm not aware that any of it is making its way overseas outside of LCDHs.

True, but.... Some Cuban leaf in my possession, left-overs from a roller when finishing her tour some years back....

Now - where to find me some Nic leaf to be able to blend a decent-smoking stick out of this....?

[NSXCIGAR]

1 hour ago, Fugu said:

True, but.... Some Cuban leaf in my possession, left-overs from a roller when finishing her tour some years back....

Don't doubt that some leaf could float around here and there on a personal level. Commercial level is another story, obviously.

[Fugu]

24 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Don't doubt that some leaf could float around here and there on a personal level. Commercial level is another story, obviously.

Floating around is not the best picture atm....

[jtfrizzy]

Hey guys I'm new to the forum and am trying to figure things out here, but I saw this in my feed and figured I'd put in my two cents. Last night I had a Part. Serie E and I swear the middle third had hints of nica tobacco in it. Not sure if Nica tobacco that I smoke has gotten so good and close to Cuban that that's what it was, or if there was actually nica tobacco in there. Idk either way but I figured I'd share my experience


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Puros Y Vino]

On 10/09/2017 at 2:33 AM, NSXCIGAR said:

My understanding is that only LCDHs are allotted raw tobacco and it is sent directly to the LCDH either ahead or behind of the LCDH roller's arrival. Raw tobacco is very, very tightly controlled and I'm not aware that any of it is making its way overseas outside of LCDHs. 

Back on 2011 Hamlet spent a whole summer in Canada. Mostly Toronto.  He rolled a lot of cigars for us needless to say.  ? According to him.  He selected the tobacco he wanted to bring up in Havana and then it was shipped from an LCDH in Cuba.  Probably Partagas as he worked there. And then it went directly to Havana House which is the Canadian distributor.  He had to pick it up from there.  I understood this to be the norm as Arnaldo Alfonso mentioned he did the same thing.