Earliest ever fake box of Cigars?

[99call]

Saw this image today. Surly this has to be one of the earliest fakes?

 

 

[garbandz]

I recall Lew Rothman  (J R ) was at an auction of tobacco memorabilia, and bought a La Corona box from the 19th century for his collection.

Upon returning home, he learned it was a fake.

As such, it was much more valuable than the real thing .

I want to say this box was from 1865 to 1870, but cannot remember for sure.

here is a neat site about antique cigar  items.           http://cigarhistory.info/Site/Cigar_history.html

[Coloniales]

I have seen pre Embargo fake Henry Clays, and RYJs in London. The Henry Clays were smokeable lol

 

Keith.

[99call]

1 hour ago, Coloniales said:

I have seen pre Embargo fake Henry Clays, and RYJs in London. The Henry Clays were smokeable lol

 

Keith.

Hello Keith, out of interest what were the stand out fake signs on the Henry Clays and RYJ's??.   Ha, apart from the smokability!

[PigFish]

One would have to think that actual price difference in cigars of the time might have been large as percentage but just pennies apart. Frankly, they could have been knocked off at the address next door and possibly with better tobacco too. One just stole an established name...

Times change, people never do.

-Piggy

[oliverdst]

9 hours ago, 99call said:

Saw this image today. Surly this has to be one of the earliest fakes?

 

 

Is it fake? Why?

[NSXCIGAR]

I'm assuming the determination of fake is based on the incorrect placement of the warranty seal.

While certainly not a good sign, the seal could have been removed and replaced or a new one affixed I suppose. People do weird stuff and the box does look pretty old. The box and seal appear genuine though. Basically, who knows.

[99call]

1 hour ago, oliverdst said:

Is it fake? Why?

The trim is all wrong the warranty seal looks both fake and in a very odd position. It looks pretty starkly fake to me, mostly because of the the trim

[99call]

Heres an additional, that makes it pretty clear that this is all kinds of wrong

[madandana]

Ya, but who knows how they did things back then. Do you have a ligit one of the same age to compare?

[99call]

22 hours ago, madandana said:

Ya, but who knows how they did things back then. Do you have a ligit one of the same age to compare?

There was a 3rd image where you can see the "HENCHO EN CUBA" on the bottom. It's pretty much written on with biro, you can sort of see it in the image above.  I'm pretty surprised anyone on here has even a shred of doubt this is fake

[Doctorossi]

16 minutes ago, 99call said:

There was a 3rd image where you can see the "HENCHO EN CUBA" on the bottom. It's pretty much written on with biro, you can sort of see it in the image above.  I'm pretty surprised anyone on here has even a shred of doubt this is fake

Box printing/burning was much less standardized before the industry was nationalized. One would need to compare this box with a like-aged known-good Montecristo box, specifically. Also, this box has been in someone's possession for a lot of decades now- plenty of time for an owner to trace right over an original stamped or printed manufacturing statement with freehand ink.This particular box looks similar to others of its approximate age that I've seen. I'm not an expert, but I've done a fair bit of research and nothing I've seen of this box so far raises any red flags for me.

[99call]

15 minutes ago, Doctorossi said:

Box printing/burning was much less standardized before the industry was nationalized. One would need to compare this box with a like-aged known-good Montecristo box, specifically. This particular box looks similar to others of its approximate age that I've seen.

 

Furthermore, this box has been in someone's possession for a lot of decades now- plenty of time for an owner to trace right over an original stamped or printed manufacturing statement with freehand ink.

If theres anyone that still thinks this is legit after seeing this image, i'm going to start looking out the window for alien landings

[99call]

For me, regardless of anything else has Montecristo trim changed in the last 80yrs??  I'm pretty sure it hasn't. and the stuff above looks nothing like it.

attached is (I think) the period their trying to rip off...........if people start telling me this box looks iffy, I know your taking the piss!

 

[Fugu]

I tend to agree, the warranty seal looks like a poor copy or repro. They even did it wrong, e.g. the No.1 (below Serie A) translates to 281 (or such like). The "Hecho en Cuba" is wrong, but would date this post-revolution. There have been counterfeiters at almost all times, so it would be no surprise at all to find an old counterfeit box of Montes.

[99call]

More old-school fakes, these look like they can out of the same "factory" as the monte's. complete with pencil squiggle

[Monterey]

Early on I gave up Cubans because I was duped into buying fakes.  I did all my research and I still had nothing but horrible tasting cigars.  I returned 5 years later after understanding that 1999 was the wrong time to start a cuban cigar collection.  They were real!  Fakes probably would have tasted better ironically. 

[Philski]

Don’t think the squiggle is anything out of the ordinary, tbh.

[99call]

18 minutes ago, Philski said:

Don’t think the squiggle is anything out of the ordinary, tbh.

Early Cubans and pre-revolution stuff always used to have a generic pencil squiggle on the bottom

like this

[99call]

Ouch looks like Mr 'Cigar Collector'  Just got burned by the same 1960 fake factory.   I struggle to understand how someone can be so heavily invested in this passion, and not recognise these as fakes, pretty instantaneously.    Sadly (by the comments box), it looks like he has willing buyers. 

 

[99call]

Someone is also trying to sell these for €1200,  I hope nobody falls for it. 

[Derboesekoenig]

On 1/12/2018 at 11:03 PM, 99call said:

Early Cubans and pre-revolution stuff always used to have a generic pencil squiggle on the bottom

like this

I thought those "squiggles" as you call them denoted wrapper color. I believe I read it from MRN's book. I.e. three squiggles = "ccc" a.k.a. claro claro claro

[99call]

15 minutes ago, Derboesekoenig said:

I thought those "squiggles" as you call them denoted wrapper color. I believe I read it from MRN's book. I.e. three squiggles = "ccc" a.k.a. claro claro claro

Yep I've only learned that since beginning the original thread.  Although I have to say in the pre embargo boxes I've owned, Ive always been very surprised that really dark maduro boxes will have a double if not a triple squiggle? It's a grading that I find often doesn't bare relation to the cigars contained within.

[Derboesekoenig]

17 minutes ago, 99call said:

Yep I've only learned that since beginning the original thread.  Although I have to say in the pre embargo boxes I've owned, Ive always been very surprised that really dark maduro boxes will have a double if not a triple squiggle? It's a grading that I find often doesn't bare relation to the cigars contained within.

Do you think that the hue of the wrappers changes that much over time?

[99call]

9 minutes ago, Derboesekoenig said:

Do you think that the hue of the wrappers changes that much over time?

It's not really I theory I've heard of i.e. cigars getting darker over time.   if anything I would say the reverse is more likely.   You only have to see poorly kept box of dutch cherrots, to see how bleached out they are.