Cryptocurrencies

[Grateful13]

On 12/14/2017 at 12:29 AM, NSXCIGAR said:

Exactly. And when the next one takes off which could very well be superior to BTC BTC will fall right through the floor.

This is a huge problem for cryptocurrencies. Sure, each one is limited in supply but there can be an infinite number of competing cryptocurrencies that all have no intrinsic value and continually displace one another making them a terrible store of value--a serious hurdle for any argument that cryptocurrencies could ever be actual money. 

 

 

You could make this same argument against just about any other asset (stocks, art/other collectibles, even real estate, etc.), and indeed every other fiat currency too.  This is not a problem that is in any way unique to bitcoin.

[NSXCIGAR]

3 hours ago, Grateful13 said:

 

You could make this same argument against just about any other asset (stocks, art/other collectibles, even real estate, etc.), and indeed every other fiat currency too.  This is not a problem that is in any way unique to bitcoin.

Stocks, art, real estate and collectibles are real, tangible things or claims to tangible things (ownership of a real company that produces real products or services). So is gold and silver. Fiat currency is not. It is a claim to nothing. It is not essentially a gold certificate or money substitute anymore for any country I know of. Not in the US since 1933. 

Sure, art and collectibles are more subjective in terms of extrinsic value and possess less utility or intrinsic value but does anyone doubt the value of a Picasso or a Ferrari 250 GTO? They have a history of value and demonstrated demand for decades and are, again, and most importantly, tangible things. Sure, they fluctuate in value, but neither has ever "crashed" and they're always worth more in 10-15 years than they are before. 

[Santiago]

The value of all collectibles is far from inherent to their use. A box of cigars or a car loses value the more you use them. Is a real Picasso really worth more than a print? Plenty have been fooled over the centuries by forged artwork, to little appreciable detriment. 

 

Cryptocurrency isn’t tangible, but the technology can have inherent value. Not all cryptos have value, but many do. Whether one BTC is worth $20,000 is another question entirely, but then again what is a dollar or 20,000 of them worth? USD value comes from the critical mass of people and enterprise accepting its use. Not so different from cryptocurrencies. 

[NSXCIGAR]

1 hour ago, Santiago said:

The value of all collectibles is far from inherent to their use. A box of cigars or a car loses value the more you use them.

Correct, collectibles have little to no intrinsic value. However, if you're using them or consuming them, they're probably not collectibles. A car one is using or vintage cigars one is smoking has ceased to be collectible and has become another good or service which depreciates. 

1 hour ago, Santiago said:

A box of cigars or a car loses value the more you use them.

In this case these items have ceased to be primarily enjoyed as collectibles but are now typical goods that depreciate and lose collectible value. Collectibles are typically not used as they were intended but preserved in a state where they could still potentially be used as intended, even though they probably never will be. 

1 hour ago, Santiago said:

Is a real Picasso really worth more than a print?

Yes. There's a world of difference between the two and it pertains to the respective difference in the properties of the two items. The market values an original differently than a copy and has since recorded history. Not really something that needs elaboration. An original is valued as a one-of-a-kind collectible. A print is valued purely for it's aesthetic appeal on a wall, or, if it's a limited print, also for it's relative scarcity. And art is a commodity, however not one that lends itself to being a medium of exchange. 

1 hour ago, Santiago said:

Cryptocurrency isn’t tangible, but the technology can have inherent value.

Possibly, but not as the economic good of money in the long run. And again, I believe the blockchain is the much more valuable, or the only valuable technology in the equation. All cryptos do exactly the same thing in potentially different ways. If there's always the lingering threat of replacement something can never be money as it is a unreliable store of value. Sure, BTC has some brand recognition but if a superior crypto was introduced tomorrow it would take a relatively short time (a few years or less) for everyone to dump their BTC and move to it. And when BTC starts losing value, it simply expedites the exodus. Once people are spooked, the run begins. And once it happens a few times, no one will trust any cryptos anymore. Many who lived through the Great Depression did not trust banks for similar reasons. Once you get wiped out, it leaves scars. Were the banks themselves to blame? Maybe, maybe not. But the perception was there even after things like the FDIC was introduced following those times which virtually guaranteed it wouldn't happen again. 

1 hour ago, Santiago said:

USD value comes from the critical mass of people and enterprise accepting its use.

Exactly, and this is why the modern USD and every other fiat currency is unsustainable and will collapse long-term. Back a dollar with 1/20 oz of gold as it was prior to 1933 and now we're dealing with an entirely different animal. Fiat currencies are backed with debt that is so great it can never be repaid without inflating the currency to worthlessness. 

BTC is not and cannot be a commodity, and according to the regression theorem of money, it can therefore never be a sustainable medium of exchange. It does meet many of the other criteria to be sustainable money such as fungibility, scarcity, divisibility and recognizability, but not that one. Just because it takes time and energy to bring a BTC into existence does not change anything. Labor theory of value is just as erroneous here as it is anywhere. Again, neither does fiat currency meet the criteria. As I've said, I do firmly believe cryptos are actually superior to all fiat currencies as money. But relative superiority isn't what's important. It is either sustainable or it's not. Short term, all bets are off and there may come a time when everyone should be using cryptos instead of fiat currencies. But can cryptos become the most widely accepted medium of exchange over a 50 or 100 year period as gold and silver have? Almost certainly not. 

[fastkiller13]

On 12/6/2017 at 11:10 AM, dominattorney said:

My 2 cents, is that this whole thing is a bubble.  I would not make significant purchases of BTC at this juncture, nor would I consider the futures which are about to be offered for sale a good investment.  The bottom has fallen out of this before, it certainly will again.  I would steer clear of using CoinBase as I have several aquaintances who have had bad experiences with it, and have even heard that the security of their "wallets" is far from top notch, leaving you open to be hacked and robbed of your investment with little or no recourse to recover it. 

Personally, I have an internet business that is being set up to accept BTC as a payment method.  I consider this to be a far superior method of collecting the currency (at least to me, as the risk-reward ratio is skewed toward the black given that I have already recouped the initial investment on my inventory and not everyone wants to pay with BTC).  If you can swing it, I'd recommend going this route.  My business partner is also a computer genius and he is taking care of the "wallet" aspect personally so I consider our investment to be relatively safe from hackers. 

An additional thing to consider is investing in one of the newer currencies that is more affordable.  I am a big fan of Monero myself, but I am not big into this cryptocurrency game.  My big issue with it on the whole is once some government agency decides to invent its own crypto, the bottom will likely fall out of all of the independent coins overnight (i know this seems counter intuitive to the initiated, but most people are stupid and IMO the inflated value of BTC is based on the bubble effect of john q everymans jumping on a bandwagon headed in a direction they can't fully comprehend). 

There is only one way to keep your BTC safe from hackers and that is to put it in whats normally referred to as cold storage. This means you use a random number generator to create a BTC address. This creates two addresses, a public, the one people send money to, and a private address (really a key to unlocking the coins) the public address is created from the private address but you can't go backwards.

So your business has a hot wallet, meaning it is connected to the blockchain, so you can see when someone sends you btc and you can send btc . Then you'd send that btc to the public cold wallet address.

Now you need to create that cold wallet address in a special way to protect the private key. Go on a computer which is air gapped (not connected to the internet or any network for that matter) this is not as easy as turning off wifi. Many programs and OS establish their own connections. Run an OS called Tails. Now look at the addresses and write them down. Don't screen shot them, copy them, print them, nothing. Store private keys in a safe place; you'll need them to retrieve the BTC you send to them. If you lose them you lose your BTC. Make as many addresses as you think you'll need. Now do a 7 pass secure overwrite on the hard drive, then take the hard drive and destroy it, then destroy every other component of that computer.  

Man that sounds crazy, and it is a bit much. But if you follow that method the only way your coins can be lost is by someone physically stealing the paper with the keys on them, or if you lose the keys. Every other option is vulnerable, more so than you'd think. If your small time the odds are against you being attacked, but if theres an exploit with a wallet you may be caught up in a random scheme. Every month there are reports of millions in BTC stolen. Crypto is like the wild west, anything goes and with BTC mixers and coins like Monero, who's rise was directly linked to the DAO ETH hack, the coins can disappear. There is currently no way to really police or prosecute crypto so I think its best to be a bit paranoid and keep your coins. IMHO

[hedgeybaby]

Excellent report

Incrementum-Crypto-Research-Report-Edition-1-English-Version (1).pdf

[PatriciaV]

I try to invest in crypto, but for now, all I have is what I got from the coinmama affiliate program.

[parabola66]

I've invested in crypto starting in 2017.

If you have the time (and luck), you can find the charts that will give you 30% gains in 2 minutes... you will also see 30% losses in 2 minutes.

I used to try and day trade but its so volatile you have to watch the charts on a minute interval if you want to jump in and out

What people don't realize with all the alt-coins is that the coin is not necessary to use the protocol. For example Ripple (XRP).. Financial institutions don't have to leverage the XRP coin to use the ripple network. There is a difference between the coins and the blockchain technology that people don't realize.

Bitcoin is the only thing I would suggest buying if you get into it, but you have to approach it with the mindset like you've already lost the money.. and at the end of the day it has no real value. It doesn't produce value.. it is simply worth what another person will pay for it. Buy it and forget about it for 10 years..

 

 

[BoliDan]

It is always weird when people respond to 3 year old threads.Anywho, As a MA in Economics, dont invest on any crypto. At this volitility and price go ahead, but dont expect to get rich, that was for early adopters. Instead take advantage of failing markets. I.e. disney lost 50 points since closing thier parks. Great time to buy, since we know the will rebound and make huge gains in 10 years. People saying invest in TP are idiots and will lose their money before they can sell.

Low valuation of guaranteed successful business is where you should be looking.

[parabola66]

 

4 minutes ago, BoliDan said:

It is always weird when people respond to 3 year old threads.

I didn't even realize this was three years old haha

[superman0234]

Own just over a full coin at 6500 avg, good price to ease in at

[MetBran]

I invested in bitcoin and to be honest I can't say that was a good idea, but I can't say that it is not worth it to invest in cryptocurrency, especially if you have some special information. I decided for me that it would be better to invest in shares as this is a more clear area for me and also I know a site I use for finding out what areas of the market will go up and what areas will go down.

[MPS]

This thread is a doozy to read now! 

[GavLew79]

Any opinion changes now that it's near $50k/BTC?

[jonnyfromiranny]

20 hours ago, miamipadronsmoker said:

This thread is a doozy to read now! 

You aint kidding! Gotta love the permanence of the interweb.

[superman0234]

On 4/27/2021 at 12:09 PM, Lrabold89 said:

So you made quite a bit of money by now


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Till you subtract what i've spent on 24:24 😄

[PuroDiario]

3 hours ago, superman0234 said:

Till you subtract what i've spent on 24:24 😄

Net of of the present value of the future sale of your premium over stock in BR in a couple years

[ReturnFreeRisk]

A must have for any crypto thread

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[Cletus]

What did I just watch???