Cigar Seeding

[mwaller]

6 hours ago, PapaDisco said:

What's the 'oldest' cuban tobacco varietal available?  Cool stuff you guys are doing!

 

That is very hard to say.  Most of Cuban-type seeds available to hobbyists are descendants from seeds that were donated to the US government around the time of the revolution.  Until roughly the 1930's when "Corojo" was developed, Cuban tobacco was an open pollinated and likely a mix of different strains.  "Criollo" is said to be the original Cuban tobacco that dates back to precolumbian times.   In the 20th century, crop diseases and increasing demand motivated efforts to conscientiously develop hardier and more productive strains.  Most of what is grown in Cuba today are hybrid strains that have been carefully developed through selective breeding to exhibit the desirable smoking characteristics of Criollo and Corojo while resisting various diseases.   Genetically, they are quite far removed from the native strains that were cultivated 600 years ago.  

The Vuelta Abajo strain discussed in this thread is said to be an "heirloom" varietal from Cuba.  The seed for this varietal was donated to the US in 1964, so it's history before that point in time is anyone's best guess.     

     

[kuma]

I live in CT Northeast states.  Love going up through the center of the state which is refered to as "the Conn. river valley" and that is

where much of the tabac is grown and used in Nic. and Dom cigars aka Drew Est., Rocky Patel, E.P. Carrillo, Arturo Fuente Anejo and a host

of other non-Cunan smokes.  I guess the wrapper is used  (broadleaf) and (shade grown) for these cigars. But the reason I'm writing

this is I often go there during planting and harvesting time and Rob thread reminded me of that very speical place.

True CT tabac growers do no grow as much as they used to but still love looking at the fields and the drying barns.

I only smoke cubans but can appreicate the growers toil and hard work.  I'm sure there are some non-cubans I would like

but I'm not sure what would float my boat if it were not Cuban.

[mwaller]

40 minutes ago, kuma said:

I live in CT Northeast states.  Love going up through the center of the state which is refered to as "the Conn. river valley" and that is

where much of the tabac is grown and used in Nic. and Dom cigars aka Drew Est., Rocky Patel, E.P. Carrillo, Arturo Fuente Anejo and a host

of other non-Cunan smokes.  I guess the wrapper is used  (broadleaf) and (shade grown) for these cigars. But the reason I'm writing

this is I often go there during planting and harvesting time and Rob thread reminded me of that very speical place.

True CT tabac growers do no grow as much as they used to but still love looking at the fields and the drying barns.

I only smoke cubans but can appreicate the growers toil and hard work.  I'm sure there are some non-cubans I would like

but I'm not sure what would float my boat if it were not Cuban.

Try Davidoff Nicaragua sometime. I smoked the Toro back-to-back with a Partagas D 4, and found them to be in a similar vein.  

[PapaDisco]

5 hours ago, mwaller said:

That is very hard to say.  Most of Cuban-type seeds available to hobbyists are descendants from seeds that were donated to the US government around the time of the revolution.  Until roughly the 1930's when "Corojo" was developed, Cuban tobacco was an open pollinated and likely a mix of different strains.  "Criollo" is said to be the original Cuban tobacco that dates back to precolumbian times.   In the 20th century, crop diseases and increasing demand motivated efforts to conscientiously develop hardier and more productive strains.  Most of what is grown in Cuba today are hybrid strains that have been carefully developed through selective breeding to exhibit the desirable smoking characteristics of Criollo and Corojo while resisting various diseases.   Genetically, they are quite far removed from the native strains that were cultivated 600 years ago.  

The Vuelta Abajo strain discussed in this thread is said to be an "heirloom" varietal from Cuba.  The seed for this varietal was donated to the US in 1964, so it's history before that point in time is anyone's best guess.     

     

I wonder if a hobbyist could eschew the modern hybrids, and focus on those disused strains from 1930-1960, legendary flavors but at risk of disease and pests.  Since the hobbyist is growing very small lots, as opposed to large monoculture fields, perhaps there would be less risk of disease?

[mwaller]

16 hours ago, PapaDisco said:

I wonder if a hobbyist could eschew the modern hybrids, and focus on those disused strains from 1930-1960, legendary flavors but at risk of disease and pests.  Since the hobbyist is growing very small lots, as opposed to large monoculture fields, perhaps there would be less risk of disease?

There are a couple of strains "Corojo" floating around that probably closer to what was grown in days past.  The feedback I've read is that they grow well and taste fine, but aren't "better" than newer hybrids, which are more productive.  Corojo 99 was my best performer this year, and produced some truly massive tip leaves (aka Medio Tiempo).  Remains to be seen how they taste.  

[Fugu]

16 hours ago, PapaDisco said:

I wonder if a hobbyist could eschew the modern hybrids, and focus on those disused strains from 1930-1960, legendary flavors but at risk of disease and pests.  Since the hobbyist is growing very small lots, as opposed to large monoculture fields, perhaps there would be less risk of disease?

Well, even some NC producers claim to be using original Cuban-seed corojo leaf in certain production....

Mean to say, the genetics of the plant is - by far - not everything. I also wonder how our friends are going to do the fermentation? I guess it will be tricky to get a proper fermentation up and running with those small amounts of plant matter? Is there a trick you are using?

[mwaller]

1 hour ago, Fugu said:

Well, even some NC producers claim to be using original Cuban-seed corojo leaf in certain production....

Mean to say, the genetics of the plant is - by far - not everything. I also wonder how our friends are going to do the fermentation? I guess it will be tricky to get a proper fermentation up and running with those small amounts of plant matter? Is there a trick you are using?

Most of the 'fermentation' that occurs in a commercial "pilon" (leaf pile) is the result of natural enzymes breaking down various compounds in the leaf.  This process generates heat, which in turn accelerates the enzymatic process. Most home growers do not have sufficient quantities of leaf to create an effective pilon, so they use a tobacco kiln to accelerate aging.  The kiln is simply an insulated box that contains a controlled source of heat and humidity. Old refrigerators are popular for this purpose; Crock-Pots are frequently used to provide heat and humidity. Kilns typically operate at about 125F - this temperature suppresses mold growth while creating an ideal environment for enzymatic activity.  30 days in the kiln is typical, and is roughly equivalent to about 1 year of natural aging.   A lot of trial and error is required to get this right; but it seems to work for most home growers.  

I discovered a minor disaster in my kiln yesterday.  Evidently, I packed the kiln so full that air couldn't circulate properly, Leaves that were pressed against the side of the kiln became saturated with condensation and began to mold... :-(  I trimmed the moldy parts off and reloaded a fewer number of leaves. I hope the rest turn out OK!        

[Fugu]

Thanks for the explanation, mate! Pretty familiar with the industrial process, but always wondered about those small- and smallest-batch enterprises of the home-growers. Looking forward to getting to see your final cigars one day - good luck for a successful production!

[PapaDisco]

19 hours ago, mwaller said:

  30 days in the kiln is typical, and is roughly equivalent to about 1 year of natural aging.   A lot of trial and error is required to get this right; but it seems to work for most home growers.  

So could a small-lot grower simply age without the kiln just by letting the leaves hang for a year or two?  Assuming no hurry.  Or is there a different enzymatic activity (not just faster) that happens in the pilon/kiln? 

[mwaller]

3 minutes ago, PapaDisco said:

So could a small-lot grower simply age without the kiln just by letting the leaves hang for a year or two?  Assuming no hurry.  Or is there a different enzymatic activity (not just faster) that happens in the pilon/kiln? 

I'm by no means an expert, but I've read that there are two primary enzymes that are responsible for the aging behavior. As long as moisture is present, both enzymes remain active.  One enzyme is much more active, but can be denatured at relatively low temperatures (150F, but don't quote me!).  When tobacco is flu-cured for cigarettes and pipe, this enzyme is is destroyed.  That is why it remains yellow, rather than turning brown.

You can naturally age tobacco by simply hanging it in an environment with adequate moisture, but this can take many years to achieve acceptable results.  I don't know if the end result is different, but I suspect the differences are minor.