The Blenders Notes

[99call]

Now apologies for those who are quickly realising there is little to zero insight in this post, but in many that in itself is a metaphor for the frustration of the current situation with the endless cloned releases from Habanos.

In short, I'll put a question out to the forum. How easy would it be for Habanos to (instead of a meaningless blurb about how they have decided to "produce this RE in honour of the 4th aniversary of the 4000th meaningless Ramon Allones Robusto blah blah") actually have a inner leaf, (pardon the punn) describing what the blender has attempted to provide.  Much like the blurb on the back of a wine bottle, yes, they may ultimately be useless, but sometimes they are quite insightful, and give you an appreciation of the artisan efforts gone into production. 

I loved listening to Gemma Freeman on the release of the 225. Surely for the price of lots of these things the customer deserves to be given this sort of insight?. 

I really would forgive the blender failing miserably, but quite simply its a missed opportunity. They seem to have latched on to covering things in gold, increases sales, but there is a different sort of collector, which I consider myself to be, which is interested in product, and hearing the back story. 

Now many would comment, that the back story isn't offered, because it would be an eye opening, ramshackle system of errors. But who cares, information is power, pull your finger out Habanos!!! tell us of your arcane dabblings

PS, How dazzlingly elegant and engaging is Jemma Freeman, such lovely manner

 

[Fugu]

21 minutes ago, 99call said:

I loved listening to Gemma Freeman on the release of the 225. Surely for the price of lots of these things the customer deserves to be given this sort of insight?. 

In the first place, the customer deserves a properly made product.

I wouldn't care about all the paperwork, bands and boxes, if they'd get that right.

[Corylax18]

I've watched this interview a couple times now, its very well done. It is good to hear that the blenders go through some sort of regular taste testing. I doubt that every distributor has the time/resources to send someone to Cuba so frequently. I wonder what the spread of distributor involvement is from a more obscure RE compared to an H&F or PCC release. I am also very curious as to where a Cuba RE falls in this scale. You would think they would be planned, blended and executed to be some of the finest cigars you could get. That doesn't seem to be the case though, both my personal experience and reviews in general seem to be pretty mixed on the majority of them. 

[99call]

1 minute ago, Fugu said:

In the first place, the customer deserves a properly made product.

I wouldn't care about all the paperwork, bands and boxes, if they'd get that right.

Sadly the purposeful mis or lack of information insures, those new to CC's have to chart a much longer trail of experimentation before they hit their niche. This is all lost money from the customer. Yes there will of been high points along the way, but the flavour map of the old regular production catalogue was much better defined, and refined. 

But unfortunately I liken this scenario to the dirth of seafood in the UK.   If RE's and LE's were cod, and red mullet was a La Gloria Cubana No.2 then the economics of it stack up in Habanos favor.  Unfortunately it seems their target audience is someone just getting into cigars who wants to buy something with gold on it. Now all that would be great, but make those cigars great, win a enthusiast for life at that first point of sale. 

An interesting concept would much like washing machines are sold 'on order' these day's. i.e. you buy a unit and then they tell you, "were just waiting for another 500 orders, then will get it delivered direct from the manufacturer. 

If Habanos released a set of proposals like 

-Diplomaticos no 1

-Partagas Serie du con no 2

etc etc.  then wait for people to pre-buy, then actually make them. surely that would appeal to there business model?

It's all never going to happen, but it's all very saddening. 

 

[99call]

7 minutes ago, Corylax18 said:

I've watched this interview a couple times now, its very well done. It is good to hear that the blenders go through some sort of regular taste testing. I doubt that every distributor has the time/resources to send someone to Cuba so frequently. I wonder what the spread of distributor involvement is from a more obscure RE compared to an H&F or PCC release. I am also very curious as to where a Cuba RE falls in this scale. You would think they would be planned, blended and executed to be some of the finest cigars you could get. That doesn't seem to be the case though, both my personal experience and reviews in general seem to be pretty mixed on the majority of them. 

I think this maybe a case of as I had suggested, maybe sometimes a blender falls flat on their face. however. 

I think the fact that Habanos doesn't afford the customer even the most basic description of what the cigar is intended to be, is a communication, they haven't got the slightest idea of what say, an RA cono sur, is intended to be.  They know it's going to sell, so who cares, so stuff it with whatever is available.

It's supposed to be a learning experience, but Habanos have effectively slashed the achilles heal of the enthusiast, and placed them is a vortex of hit and miss. In short it's taken all the pressure of themselves, and put it all on the customer. 'You want a cigar with notes of gingerbread?' 'well good luck, go find it.......oh and spend £700 on singles, on your way there". 

 

[Colt45]

10 minutes ago, 99call said:

'You want a cigar with notes of gingerbread?'

They don't blend as we interpret or describe - for gingerbread, chocolate, molasses, etc.

[99call]

43 minutes ago, Colt45 said:

They don't blend as we interpret or describe - for gingerbread, chocolate, molasses, etc.

I realise this, my point being is the reliance of information upon flavour profiles is now placed upon the customer and forums etc. Much like a restaurant that has put out the same famous dish of 50yrs, it's 'in the bank' so to speak, you can find it, depend on it, always know it's there.  The killing off of golden greats, (that admittedly didn't sell at a rate that made them practical for Habanos) has put the customer in a flux state, where even if they like something it will be incredibly difficult to find quality or stock to 'go deep on'.  

I'm not suggesting the inner leaf contains nuance notes, rather that it lists very basic blender notes, that it is 'seco driven' or "is designed to have a very intense final volado final third". What I'm getting to is that I think Habanos are purposefully erroding  a framework, that allows you to buy accurately, replacing it with a market place that more like a shot in the dark.

[Colt45]

11 minutes ago, 99call said:

What I'm getting to is that I think Habanos are purposefully erroding  a framework, that allows you to buy accurately, replacing it with a market place that more like a shot in the dark.

Given that recipes are closely held, I'm not sure how much information they'd be inclined to divulge. But I guess a good starting point might be the Habanos site itself:

http://www.habanos.com/en/vitolario/

 

[99call]

1 minute ago, Colt45 said:

Given that recipes are closely held, I'm not sure how much information they'd be inclined to divulge. But I guess a good starting point might be the Habanos site itself:

http://www.habanos.com/en/vitolario/

 

The point is, is that if the market becomes dominated with cigars that are only on the market for say 1.5 years, then just at the point your getting to know it,......it's gone. There is some ray of hope in that cigars like RACA has found it's feet to such a degree that it may become a standard production. 

I just think it would be a very sad future indeed, if you entered a walk in humidor if you didn't feel like you were surrounded by old dependable friends, rather that you were in some sort of painfully expensive speed dating platform

[garbandz]

Your idea is a good one.

For example, the humi  on the table is well made and eye pleasing, makes me want one.

However, does  it contain four dog-common boxes?

All that work for ordinary sticks.

That scenario is another example of a missed opportunity ..............

[99call]

34 minutes ago, garbandz said:

Your idea is a good one.

For example, the humi  on the table is well made and eye pleasing, makes me want one.

However, does  it contain four dog-common boxes?

All that work for ordinary sticks.

That scenario is another example of a missed opportunity ..............

I think there are levels of cynicism with regards to these productions.

1- People that put a great deal of love and thought into a product and get it bang on, resulting in a huge success

2- People that put a great deal of love and thought into a product and don't get it right ,arguably the 225, (I wouldn't know, I thought about a box, but they were gone before I could say bo!)

3- People who couldn't care less about a product, apart from whether it sells and sells quickly.

 

 

[El Presidente]

You put up a what you would like.  Say this year's RG88. You provide an overview of what you are trying to achieve. 

It is eventually approved by HSA. 

Blender puts together a half dozen blends (it is a new RG vitola so there is room to move). 

You pick the blend you like or make commentary. 

Blend finalised. 

Pay now. Wait 2-3 years. 

[Fugu]

8 hours ago, 99call said:

If Habanos released a set of proposals like 

-Diplomaticos no 1

-Partagas Serie du con no 2

etc etc.  then wait for people to pre-buy, then actually make them. surely that would appeal to there business model?

It's all never going to happen, but it's all very saddening. 

It is happening, called the Regional Program.

[El Presidente]

3 hours ago, Fugu said:

It is happening, called the Regional Program.

That's what I meant 

[99call]

9 hours ago, El Presidente said:

You put up a what you would like.  Say this year's RG88. You provide an overview of what you are trying to achieve. 

It is eventually approved by HSA. 

Blender puts together a half dozen blends (it is a new RG vitola so there is room to move). 

You pick the blend you like or make commentary. 

Blend finalised. 

Pay now. Wait 2-3 years. 

I had no Idea, they actually responded to dealer's desired productions. The RG88 looks to be a great addition. no criticisms there 

So it's actually retailers over most of the globe, asking for RA Robusto regionals?

God, thats even more depressing. It's like crossing your'e fingers and praying to god for yet another bar to opened in Manchester dedicated to the vacuous desires of footballers.

Thanks for opening my eye's to the horror gents, I had no idea 

[99call]

I wish someone would champion the "fancy tales of smoke" vitola to be resurrected in either Party, LGC, or Sancho

 

[wabashcr]

Love that interview with Jemma.  She's brilliant.  And of course superb work from the late, great Nic Wing.  RIP.

For limited runs like REs and LEs, it would be nice to hear Cuba's view of the cigars.  But it would never work for regular production, where I believe the flavor profiles are subject to whatever tobacco happens to be available.  The problem from Cuba's perspective, of course, is that they risk their blenders' credibility if they miss the mark.  To them, the benefits in the market of transparency don't outweigh the potential damage to their reputation if it appears they don't know what the hell they're talking about.  If they say nothing, and maintain a shroud of secrecy or mystery, we just assume they're the experts.  But given the nature of tobacco and cigars, consistency is a huge challenge.  Transparency would be sure to expose that challenge, which does Cuba no favors.

[JohnS]

9 hours ago, 99call said:

So it's actually retailers over most of the globe, asking for RA Robusto regionals?

In regards to Libano Regional releases in the last 8 to 10 years there's been quite a few Ramon Allones Robusto-type releases, for example. Yet, I don't blame local regions wanting to get something back from their investment, preferably decent sales and profit.

[PigFish]

On 7/27/2017 at 6:42 AM, 99call said:

Sadly the purposeful mis or lack of information insures, those new to CC's have to chart a much longer trail of experimentation before they hit their niche. This is all lost money from the customer. Yes there will of been high points along the way, but the flavour map of the old regular production catalogue was much better defined, and refined. 

But unfortunately I liken this scenario to the dirth of seafood in the UK.   If RE's and LE's were cod, and red mullet was a La Gloria Cubana No.2 then the economics of it stack up in Habanos favor.  Unfortunately it seems their target audience is someone just getting into cigars who wants to buy something with gold on it. Now all that would be great, but make those cigars great, win a enthusiast for life at that first point of sale. 

An interesting concept would much like washing machines are sold 'on order' these day's. i.e. you buy a unit and then they tell you, "were just waiting for another 500 orders, then will get it delivered direct from the manufacturer. 

If Habanos released a set of proposals like 

-Diplomaticos no 1

-Partagas Serie du con no 2

etc etc.  then wait for people to pre-buy, then actually make them. surely that would appeal to there business model?

It's all never going to happen, but it's all very saddening. 

 

Perhaps later I will spend a bit more time on this thread, the time that it deserves. While reading your comments, I found myself getting lost in how your are presenting it, thinking more about that, than the content... This is not a criticism, but a compliment...

When I read I often think about the though processes of the author. I am saying that in some ways I am getting lost in thinking about how you process, and I have enjoyed all that I have read on this thread thus far... It appears to me that I am reading thoughts similar to my own and I am enjoying, apparently more than anything, your presentation.

I understand this might not make sense to you; I find it a bit odd taking you off topic to discuss it, yet felt compelled to do so! Thanks for sharing mate. I am enjoying the reading.

-Piggy

[99call]

14 minutes ago, PigFish said:

Perhaps later I will spend a bit more time on this thread, the time that it deserves. While reading your comments, I found myself getting lost in how your are presenting it, thinking more about that, than the content... This is not a criticism, but a compliment...

When I read I often think about the though processes of the author. I am saying that in some ways I am getting lost in thinking about how you process, and I have enjoyed all that I have read on this thread thus far... It appears to me that I am reading thoughts similar to my own and I am enjoying, apparently more than anything, your presentation.

I understand this might not make sense to you; I find it a bit odd taking you off topic to discuss it, yet felt compelled to do so! Thanks for sharing mate. I am enjoying the reading.

-Piggy

Cheers Ray,

It got me thinking of "hypernormalisation" and chicken.  A few years ago I ate a 90 day old free range luminous yellow chicken from France. I think the average chicken in the UK has a bloody terrible life and is only 42 days old at slaughter. Anyway although I buy free range in the UK, the French chicken, made me realise I had completely forgotten what chicken actually tasted of. It made me feel pretty queezy and strange that piece by piece (not of chicken) I had reached a point where my level of expectation had been completely devolved and unrelated to what I was buying, it might as well of been Soylent Green

"The term "hypernormalisation" is taken from Alexei Yurchak's 2006 book Everything was Forever, Until it was No More: The Last Soviet Generation, about the paradoxes of life in the Soviet Union during the 20 years before it collapsed. A professor of anthropology at the University of California, Berkeley, he argues that everyone knew the system was failing, but as no one could imagine any alternative to the status quo, politicians and citizens were resigned to maintaining a pretence of a functioning society. Over time, this delusion became a self-fulfilling prophecy and the "fakeness" was accepted by everyone as real, an effect that Yurchak termed "hypernormalisation".

I guess my point in starting this thread is that, if you erode a structure of quality and history, say in cigars, and you remove all reference points. If the dealer only has the cigars for 2 months before they shoot out the door, then you start to get "hypernormalisation", you start to forget where you started, It starts to become irrelevant if cigars are good or bad.  Habanos have done very well to understand that, what those who buy these cigars love, is owning them, and less so smoking them. 

I was really heartened to see what Jemma and the 225 team tried to create, it doesn't really matter if they succeeded or not, it's that they tried to be excellent, and that the information is there as record. Because you can then smoke the cigar and go "hhhmmm maybe is didn't work out, because of this, or that, or because the went with blend 669, and not 660". 

I would also class RACA, Partagas Privada, La Escepcion Finos to be in the same bracket. Cigars that you can tell had an idea behind them, heart and execution.

There is no doubt that Habanos is making some great cigars, I guess my point is, is they want the customer a whole bunch of aimless dross, before they hit gold.

 

[PigFish]

14 minutes ago, 99call said:

Cheers Ray,

It got me thinking of "hypernormalisation" and chicken.  A few years ago I ate a 90 day old free range luminous yellow chicken from France. I think the average chicken in the UK has a bloody terrible life and is only 42 days old at slaughter. Anyway although I buy free range in the UK, the French chicken, made me realise I had completely forgotten what chicken actually tasted of. It made me feel pretty queezy and strange that piece by piece (not of chicken) I had reached a point where my level of expectation had been completely devolved and unrelated to what I was buying, it might as well of been Soylent Green

"The term "hypernormalisation" is taken from Alexei Yurchak's 2006 book Everything was Forever, Until it was No More: The Last Soviet Generation, about the paradoxes of life in the Soviet Union during the 20 years before it collapsed. A professor of anthropology at the University of California, Berkeley, he argues that everyone knew the system was failing, but as no one could imagine any alternative to the status quo, politicians and citizens were resigned to maintaining a pretence of a functioning society. Over time, this delusion became a self-fulfilling prophecy and the "fakeness" was accepted by everyone as real, an effect that Yurchak termed "hypernormalisation".

I guess my point in starting this thread is that, if you erode a structure of quality and history, say in cigars, and you remove all reference points. If the dealer only has the cigars for 2 months before they shoot out the door, then you start to get "hypernormalisation", you start to forget where you started, It starts to become irrelevant if cigars are good or bad.  Habanos have done very well to understand that, what those who buy these cigars love, is owning them, and less so smoking them. 

I was really heartened to see what Jemma and the 225 team tried to create, it doesn't really matter if they succeeded or not, it's that they tried to be excellent, and that the information is there as record. Because you can then smoke the cigar and go "hhhmmm maybe is didn't work out, because of this, or that, or because the went with blend 669, and not 660". 

I would also class RACA, Partagas Privada, La Escepcion Finos to be in the same bracket. Cigars that you can tell had an idea behind them, heart and execution.

There is no doubt that Habanos is making some great cigars, I guess my point is, is they want the customer a whole bunch of aimless dross, before they hit gold.

 

Lovely post... I disagree only with the fact that 'they tried.'

Failing or succeeding is all that matters to me as a consumer. You have put wonderful philosophy to something that I believe has existed for years. Reading your thoughts has been thought provoking and exciting.

The Cuban cigar is failing (my thoughts, perhaps not yours) at a connoisseur's level and it is due to the fact that the customer has failed to be connoisseur 'worthy.' I think that this is what you mean here, regardless, it is what I believe.

The catalogue was filled with wonderful cigars just 15 to 20 years ago, and there were not 'men of good taste' (rhetorical) enough to buy them, enjoy them and keep them going.

While I still think Tabacuba's market model is flawed for many a reason that I won't drone on about yet again, cigar smokers are more interested in acting like big collectors than smoking great cigars. It is a matter of record of history... and I believe in the empirical evidence of history!

I don't believe all that comes out of the mouths of Tabacuba. Great cigars did sell, but certainly not at the price and excitement level of lousy, fat, new dressed up cigars. That is our fault. The Cuban cigar market does not demand great cigars, only new, crappy expensive ones, so that is what we get...

Again, wonderful read. I enjoyed the backstory and glad that I stimulated you enough to write about it...

Cheers my friend, -Ray

[Fugu]

On 28/07/2017 at 2:08 PM, wabashcr said:

For limited runs like REs and LEs, it would be nice to hear Cuba's view of the cigars.  But it would never work for regular production, where I believe the flavor profiles are subject to whatever tobacco happens to be available.

I'd say, quite the reverse actually. For LEs they rather pick what they get. That's the attractiveness about it for Cubatabaco and its marketing people, with a high variability in tobacco resp. wrapper availability: No obligation to a / the marca, no obligation to a minimum production run, no obligation to a taste profile. When the tobacco is gone its gone. A whole different thing with REs (which is why one shouldn't lump ELs and ERs together. Two separate concepts.) and with regular production.

[99call]

4 hours ago, Fugu said:

"No obligation to a / the marca"

I think this is key. I feel as if Habanos had painted a picture in there heads of the nightmare client. i.e someone who knew exactly what they liked, and only bought cigars they knew they were going to enjoy.  The continued degradation of the of the standard line up, for whimsy production cigars, means in effect they can see a future where there will never be a knowledgable cigar smoker. The goal posts will just continue to move, and blends with effectively be flux. They will have zero pressure to live up to any framework, the only pressure they will have will be fancy packaging, and even though they've had their issues with that.

RE and LE agreed are different,  but one thing they have in common, is if you criticise them as a customer, the maker can effectively just say "yeah!!! that one didn't quite work out" where as is you say" These R&J Churchills have been awful for the last 15yrs" it's much harder for them to defend themselves. 

The situation of a bad regular production cigar, created bad energy between the maker, and the dealer.  I.e is was sat in their store collecting dust.

Now, the dealer has 100's of pre-release reserves of four box purchases, (before anyone has even tasted one of the cigars). This is perfect scenario for the maker and the dealer, but a bad result for the customer. They have to rush to buy the cigars, they now have to age them, themselves, and after all this, they might be crap. Admittedly if they can look after them for 10yrs the secondary market is going to pay them a pretty penny (even if the cigar get trolled for the 10 interim).

Coming full circle, what happens when Marca no longer means anything. When Ramon Allones isn't Stewed fruit, When Upmann isnt buttery shortbread and nuts.............when they are indeed just badges on boxes of whatever.

 

[99call]

Personally I would like (and this sounds pretty communist)

For there to be only a Minuto, Corona Gorda, Dalia, and Double corona in every line. And for each house to concentrate intensely on what they were about. For there to be either new brands, or resurected old brands. Things like Guantanemera should be culled, as they have failed. PL Piedra should be just the Cazadore, (but handmade). I think the growing regions of the island should be I bit more divided up by the brands, so you could get a bit more of an Appetation Controlle feel to the product. 

I have never been to Havana, and know little about the operation, and I realise may who have on this forum, will just see is as ridiculous pie in the sky. but wouldn't it me nice if you were a CC novice, passing through airport, and:

- You could buy a 5er of some good looking Minutos, (expecting very little) they are a short one dimensional blast of something very distinct, and very good

You then buy the a couple of singles of the rest of the line, and you realise the:

- Corona Gorda is your robust, dependable front line exponent of the brand, satisfying, but not overwhelming

- Dalia is the clean aromatic, transitional cigar, providing the full panorama of all the brand has to offer

- Double Corona, is the indulgent, rambling, sometimes overpowering companion, the showstopper. 

Now, if you repeat this across 30 distinctly different brands, you have avery cigar you'll ever need...........Surely?

[zeedubbya]

Reading this post over I would like to make just two points which come to mind. 

1.)  We are dealing with a natural product here produced in a country with 1950s methods.  Consistency in agriculture is nearly impossible to achieve with even the most modern farming methods.  With the methods used in Cuba there is a chance very close to zero of being able to produce a consistent product year in year out--a product HSA could say is this flavor or that flavor. Winemakers can do this because they (I assume) taste the wine post production and can assign a general taste characteristic to it.  This could be done by HSA but why would they?  Especially on something as subjective as the taste of burning tobacco.  

And...

2.) We have the good fortune here of Rob pretty much doing the above for us.  His analysis is generally pretty solid I have to admit.  Take the boxes you get and label them with the tasting notes he has provided and see how it goes.  But...be sure to pay attention to the advice (lay these down for x number of years etc.,).   

Here's a memorable note I recall this was scarily close to how the entire box smoked.  These were one of my most memorable boxes ever.  Couldn't keep my hands out of them.  And they were RYJ PCs!  

From 1/14/16

"I saw them early this week in the warehouse. I arrived Tuesday, looked at them as they were shelved next to my sorting bench. Great looking cigars and so I picked a box to smoke through over the coming weeks. They were crackers and I didn’t smoke anything else while in the warehouse. Cherry in spades, that sweet berry note that I adore combined with a nice kick of youth/toasted tobacco, billowing smoke with an aroma of flowers and charred wood. Best petit corona I have had in a while and I go through quite a few of them.
 I will put up the PE next week (very high end) an should you wish to save some coin, then they will be a little cheaper. If you want the absolute best, here they are."  

This is as close to an accurate updated tasting note as I have ever seen in any cigar setting.  I share your pie in the sky hope as well but am happy to have someone doing this for me on an extremely inconsistent product.