FOH Mould Study

[maxcjs0101]

Great job Greg!

For me the results were kinda expected but its interesting to know that the "dust" could actually be bacteria instead of fungi. Interesting.

Cant wait to see the forum newbies post this in the CO/Cigar Cartel/CHAOS FB page..

[CaptainQuintero]

10 hours ago, Shaunster said:

It doesnt make sense anyway, if the oils are what give the cigar its flavour, then a cigar whose oils have migrated somehow outside the cigar is therefor surely a less flavoursome cigar?  

Yeah but....

Something, something, we don't understand because, super secret cigar knowledge club, keep the rifraff away, something something

[feral]

Mmmmmm light dusting of e-coli

[El Presidente]

Greg is working to get the pipe tobacco samples chemically tested. We should have an update on that process next week 

 

[Leopolis Semper Fidelis]

Sorry, Greg and team, but Fugu's two posts are the crux of this discussion.  His points need to be examined scientifically before seemingly dogmatic remarks such as "plume is always mould" can be made with any confidence.  True science constantly observes, tests, experiments, challenges widely held beliefs, opinions and prejudices.  Great stuff, Fugu!

[El Presidente]

I honestly believe plume is out there  It just hasnt shown upon a cigar tested as yet. What is clear however is that the vast majority of cigars with attributed plume are no more than vehicles for mould. I think you can say that quite confidently.

We will have in place chemical testing within a few weeks and will run the pipe tobacco again. I am sorry we started on pipe tobacco at all but having started we will finish that process. 

And of course the reward for a cigar with confirmed plume goes on 

It shouldn't be this hard to find.

 

 

 

[Leopolis Semper Fidelis]

14 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

I honestly believe plume is out there  It just hasnt shown upon a cigar tested as yet. What is clear however is that the vast majority of cigars with attributed plume are no more than vehicles for mould. I think you can say that quite confidently.

I saw a crystalline substance I thought was plume on my Davidoff 80 Aniversario cigars about  twenty years ago (as I have mentioned in other threads).  It was brushed off.  Simultaneously, oily deposits were left on the cedar sheath covering them.

 

18 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

And of course the reward for a cigar with confirmed plume goes on

 Unfortunately, after all this time, I can't claim the reward because a fresh lot of [alleged] plume has not appeared subsequently.   Yes, I still have those cigars.

[hedgeybaby]

I think this study just goes to show the calibre of this forum.

[SloppyJ]

Very cool article. Thank you for posting it.... I love some biology! 

[fabes]

While “plume” may hypothetically exist, is there anyone that can clearly define what it is? I’m not even worried about the how, but merely the definition of what it is, is non-existent.

Through these two rounds it’s clear to me that what I’ve heard/seen/read from the cigar community both in real life and on the internet is that what people speak of as plume is quite definitely mould. Unfortunately, these wive’s tales will not die quietly. 

[Toast & Taste]

If it is on YOUR cigar - it's mold, mould, etc.

If it is on MY cigar - it is plume.

Wipe 'em and smoke 'em folks.

 

Big Al

[CigarNerd]

Sorry if this is mentioned somewhere and I did nor read carefully enough:

Only samples which are not obiously mold, have been sent to the lab for further testing.

How many have you not sent to the lab because you knew it was mold?

And are all the differnt lots from round1 from differnt customers?

[PigFish]

This is getting very interesting indeed.

As a science 'boffin' I have to agree with the a logical analysis done by Goo. It is not a criticism of the study but a clarification of it. I would be happy to find out that 'plume' is sugar! I would be happy to find out that it is just about anything other than an imaginary 'reason' to explain away poor storage of a cigar, and a means by which one person holds their cigar above those of another.

I am happy standing on my soap box and 'believing' that there is noting magical or beneficial about 'shit' growing on a cigar. It is, and has always been 'puffing' coming from the collector and vendor community in order to add rather than detract from value. It is charlatan stuff, snake oil, or just plain bullshit!

Great job all involved. intelligent commentary just makes the results better. MHO... It is not a detraction from the topic at all. Again, MHO.

Cheers! -Piggy

[rcarlson]

On 11/14/2017 at 9:01 PM, Notsocleaver said:

So what you are saying is that somewhere out there is a currently undocumented strain of bacteria unknown to science, but commonly observed by cigar smokers, allowing them to some how identify the finest tobacco by what grows on it? What should we call it then? Staphylococcus Plumeus?

LOL.  

[Leopolis Semper Fidelis]

On 11/17/2017 at 9:51 AM, fabes said:

While “plume” may hypothetically exist, is there anyone that can clearly define what it is? I’m not even worried about the how, but merely the definition of what it is, is non-existent.

Through these two rounds it’s clear to me that what I’ve heard/seen/read from the cigar community both in real life and on the internet is that what people speak of as plume is quite definitely mould. Unfortunately, these wive’s tales will not die quietly. 

According to Marvin R. Shanken's Cigar Aficionado's Pocket Guide (1997 edition): 

"BLOOM - A naturally occurring phenomenon in the cigar aging process, also called plume, caused by the oils which are exuded during later fermentations.  It appears as a fine, white powder and can be brushed off.  Not to be confused with cigar mold, which is bluish in color and stains the wrapper.

MOLD - A potentially damaging fungus that can form on cigars stored at too high a temperature. 

OIL - Oil is the mark of a well-humidified cigar.  Even well aged cigars secrete oil at 70-72% humidity, the level at which they should be stored.

[I can't help including this one as well: "PERIOD OF SICKNESS" - A time when cigars should not be smoked.  Fresh cigars are fine, as are aged ones; but avoid cigars between three months and a year old. (No reputable store would sell you a cigar of this age.)".]

+ + + + + + +

Now we turn to Richard B. Perelman's Perelman's Pocket Cyclopedia of Havana Cigars (Second Edition, 1998):

"Aging of [cigars with strong flavors] will result in a mellowing in the strength of the cigars as the fermentation process continues.  During this period, the internal oils of the leaves will migrate towards the exterior and will leave the wrappers oily and aromatic...Cigars which show white mold, also known as "plume" should simply be wiped clean with a barely-damp sponge or a soft cloth.  If the mold has turned green, the cigars are ruined."

+ + + + + + +

Note how Shanken and Perelman are at odds: Marvin says plume is caused by migrating tobacco oils and is not mold.  However, Rich states that plume is white mold.

By the way, has it been established scientifically that tobacco oils move themselves to the surface of the cigar, or is this one of those urban myths associated with cigars? Do cigars actually "ferment" as they age? I could pose some more questions, and make a few comments, on the above extracts, but will leave it at that.

 

[CigarNerd]

4 hours ago, Leopolis Semper Fidelis said:

By the way, has it been established scientifically that tobacco oils move themselves to the surface of the cigar, or is this one of those urban myths associated with cigars? 

Maybe the myth roots even further back?
Does anyone know if tobacco oils (which are volatile oils) survive all the drying, fermenting, etc... during the production process?
Is there somehting like tobacco oil in the final product at all? 

[Akela3rd]

Maybe the myth roots even further back?
Does anyone know if tobacco oils (which are volatile oils) survive all the drying, fermenting, etc... during the production process?
Is there somehting like tobacco oil in the final product at all? 

One would assume it does, creating the sheen on a lovely fresh box. What else could cause this? One would think that water would evaporate quickly on contract with air so it can't just be that.

Thunder & Lightening '75 - '15

[CigarNerd]

35 minutes ago, Akela3rd said:

One would assume it does, creating the sheen on a lovely fresh box. What else could cause this?

I'm not 100% sure if you mean the sheen on the box itself or on the cigars?
However, I'm by no means an expert in this field (to be honest I even hate chemistry) but the german wiki-entry regarding volatile oils states that they evaporate without residues.
I have not a clue if this is true or not. 

[Akela3rd]

I'm not 100% sure if you mean the sheen on the box itself or on the cigars?
However, I'm by no means an expert in this field (to be honest I even hate chemistry) but the german wiki-entry regarding volatile oils states that they evaporate without residues.
I have not a clue if this is true or not. 

Cigars. The sheen on the paper on a box is the result of a polymer coating process. Glad to clarify

Thunder & Lightening '75 - '15

[CigarNerd]

15 hours ago, Akela3rd said:

Cigars. The sheen on the paper on a box is the result of a polymer coating process. Glad to clarify

Thanks, actually I have a fever right now...so I can blame the fever for my stupid questions 

Now I know exactly what you mean, and I do like this sheen also very much. But to my experience this sheen is not present on all cigars.
Have you never seen those claro wrappers with a rather dull and rough surface? Where would the oils be there?

[Circles]

22 hours ago, CigarNerd said:

Have you never seen those claro wrappers with a rather dull and rough surface? Where would the oils be there?

I have received a box from Rob of RyJ Churchill and am contemplating whether to send them back because of exactly this issue. The wrappers have zero sheen and some feel like sandpaper. Greg, very honestly and quickly, offered for return postage but I don't want the team to incur costs if it can be avoided, so will take a day or two to make the decision.

[BJRPorter]

Back to the explanation of plume. It does come up in the use of shell Cordovan.

For any who do not know. Shell Cordovan comes from the muscle underneath the hide of horse butt.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_cordovan

This material is prized for its natural shine, and durability. It oftentimes produces plume, a white powdery substance that rises to the exterior layers. In shoes, or boots, the plume is a good sign. The leather/muscle is actually moisturizing itself. We brush it off before and after wearing for aesthetic reasons. It is easily reproduced.

Does Cordovan plume have any chemical process related to the white stuff on cigars? I wonder if Cordovan plume has been tested to determine its chemical make-up. Not a bad place to look to learn more.

This link is about “bloom”, and has pictures:

http://hubertwhite.com/blog/2014/01/the-cordovan-bloom-or-cloudiness-and-why-it-happens.html

 

[DBNInc]

On 11/20/2017 at 7:31 PM, BJRPorter said:

Back to the explanation of plume. It does come up in the use of shell Cordovan.

For any who do not know. Shell Cordovan comes from the muscle underneath the hide of horse butt.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_cordovan

This material is prized for its natural shine, and durability. It oftentimes produces plume, a white powdery substance that rises to the exterior layers. In shoes, or boots, the plume is a good sign. The leather/muscle is actually moisturizing itself. We brush it off before and after wearing for aesthetic reasons. It is easily reproduced.

Does Cordovan plume have any chemical process related to the white stuff on cigars? I wonder if Cordovan plume has been tested to determine its chemical make-up. Not a bad place to look to learn more.

This link is about “bloom”, and has pictures:

http://hubertwhite.com/blog/2014/01/the-cordovan-bloom-or-cloudiness-and-why-it-happens.html

 

I found this very educational, I have a lot to learn about leather!

[anton]

Prolonged wetness rots tobacco, but you are much more likely to encounter ‘bloom’. This is a white, powdery mould that occurs naturally on a Habano when it is subjected to a sudden increase in humidity. It is a sign that the cigar is alive and well and should simply be removed with a brush.

this is  habanos saying bloom is mold 

[CigarNerd]

3 hours ago, anton said:

This is a white, powdery mould that occurs naturally on a Habano when it is subjected to a sudden increase in humidity

That's indeed very interesting.
Quote is from: http://www.habanos.com/en/el-mundo-del-habano/como-conservar-sus-habanos/?age-verified=6beebf69c6