What am I doing wrong storage wise?

[earthson]

Fn Piggy knocks it out of the park, again!

Best quality beads generally = a set and forget system, to the point where you can rely on $25 hygrometers to keep you abreast of any attention the system may need. You DEFINITELY need some sort of constant temp to produce reliable outcomes. If not, you're going to have to anticipate your system's water replenishment requirements wrt seasonal changes in ambient temp.

My setup that I'd never change: a 70something qt cooler with "65%" humidification beads that are specifically marketed for the cigar community. I doubled the amount of beads they suggest and probably add water once or twice per year (climate controlled house 75% of the year, low 70s avg temp). That is my aging stash. I have 3 (soon to be 2) desktop humis for smoke now stash. They are restocked from the cooler when they look empty and any aging boxes are old enough for my tastes (varies by marca).

Best of luck! It takes a few years to figure out the idiosyncrasies of your system.

[PigFish]

On 7/1/2017 at 11:54 AM, Geaux said:

Great - now more questions....  Ha!

 

So if my amateur eyes read this data with rightability (that was for the bloke complaining about Americanese) - it looks like the green box is the area where cigars absorb water vapor....  Am I doing it righly?

Sorry mate, been in a shit mood over my back and crashing my CNC...

Whoever blended machine tools with a computer and electronics was a genius, and simultaneously insane...! Enough of that!

The green area was simply a demonstration but it does have some relevance.

Anywhere on the chart that temperature lines have vertical 'overhead,' there is room for further adsorption. This is just part of the original chart, the only part that I had interest in. So frankly, yes and no... The green box certainly represents an area where the cigars adsorb water, however so is the rest of the chart...! Anywhere the temperature lines move vertically, there is room for adsorption.

The proof in the pudding for our conversation here, is the vertical distance between any two or more temperature lines. This is the proof that a temperature has an effect on Percent Moisture Content just like the rH does.

One aspect of the green box that has significant value is the bottom line. If we traverse across it you will notice that if storing at 9% PMC was your goal, there is more than one way of getting it... Since storing cigars ultimately is about achieving a desired PMC, then it matters not what the specific rH or temperature is (within a given range), but what combination of rH and temperature gets you there. There are limitations of course... but the concept provides a "range of setting" rather than what is postulated as "the only setting..." 

With a fully controlled humidor this is of lesser importance. However as I often advice people with passive humidors, the concept of keeping their PMC without such control is liberating. You simply have to understand the relevance of both temperature and rH and you are at least on your way...

Furthermore, there is a specific part of the chart that I also find fascinating and quite useful. Where the green line passes over both the 65F and 80F line is just about 5rH (the midpoint between two rH numbered lines). Well, if we use this as simply a representative example of a concept, we can see that in this case (with this tobacco) the 15 degree temperature difference is roughly equivalent 5rH. This gives us an approximate ratio of 3 to 1, temperature to rH.

Ultimately this is not Cuban cigar tobacco and there are hygroscopic differences. This is not the end all.... but it proves the falsehood, regardless of who claims to write it and his ostensible credentials to the myth that rH is all that matters. It gives you some numbers to tinker with and knowledge you might not have had. It gives you ideas about finding your potential 'sweet spot' within a mix of temperatures and rH values. It gives you a rough estimation, 3 to 1 to work with. When you consider the world of hearsay cigar keeping on the internet, and the garbage above that gets moved from one forum to another without any proof or foundation of proof... this is heady, myth-busting stuff!

Remember you read it here on FoH first... -LOL

I may just have to do a little video on this for YouBoob...!

Cheers! -Ray

[ballophun]

Fark...

I left it for a few days expecting to see a comment that said "we've discussed this before! Find it!" Seems like we're all struggling. (Not you PigFish). 

My tupperdor would never have been up to 38 degrees celsius. I'm saying in Sydney, temperatures reach that, but I've got the tupperdor in the bottom of a cupboard where temperatures would rarely go outside, say, 18-25 degrees celsius. I've never had a dry Boveda pack, and when I've checked the RH on even the most aggressive days (say 35 degrees plus), the rh in the tupperdor has still been between about 63 and 65.

From reading all the info on this thread though, including that given by the Professor, it would seem that the temperature will affect how the cigar stores water despite the rh in the box. Is that correct? What I mean is, the hotter gets, the harder it is for the cigar to store moisture even when the box is at 65rh. The colder it gets, the more moisture the cigar will collect despite the humidity in the box being at 65rh. Is this completely wrong? That's how my pea brain is comprehending all this science talk. 

In hindsight, I think it might have a lot to do with my tupperdor going unchecked for such long periods, and no circulation being allowed. That can't be good. I wanted a set and forget system but I obviously haven't got one. 

Since I'm pretty low on cigars, most of which are these cracked CoRos my mate gave me, I'm gonna try something else out. 

 

I'd assume a proper wooden humidor, placed somewhere that the temperature is relatively stable, is more likely to hold a steady temp than a plastic box. I'll never have more than about 40 at a time, because my wife will kick my ass. I just want a simple system I can go to once or twice a week for a nice cigar.

What would you suggest PigFish? In terms of beads and humidor? If rules prevent us from recommending stuff on here can you maybe PM me? I know you've done more than enough but I'd really appreciate it. I'd send you a few sticks but they'll be awful. Hehe... 

Cheers for joining in lads!

 

[PigFish]

21 hours ago, ballophun said:

Fark...

I left it for a few days expecting to see a comment that said "we've discussed this before! Find it!" Seems like we're all struggling. (Not you PigFish). 

My tupperdor would never have been up to 38 degrees celsius. I'm saying in Sydney, temperatures reach that, but I've got the tupperdor in the bottom of a cupboard where temperatures would rarely go outside, say, 18-25 degrees celsius. I've never had a dry Boveda pack, and when I've checked the RH on even the most aggressive days (say 35 degrees plus), the rh in the tupperdor has still been between about 63 and 65.

From reading all the info on this thread though, including that given by the Professor, it would seem that the temperature will affect how the cigar stores water despite the rh in the box. Is that correct? What I mean is, the hotter gets, the harder it is for the cigar to store moisture even when the box is at 65rh. The colder it gets, the more moisture the cigar will collect despite the humidity in the box being at 65rh. Is this completely wrong? That's how my pea brain is comprehending all this science talk. 

In hindsight, I think it might have a lot to do with my tupperdor going unchecked for such long periods, and no circulation being allowed. That can't be good. I wanted a set and forget system but I obviously haven't got one. 

Since I'm pretty low on cigars, most of which are these cracked CoRos my mate gave me, I'm gonna try something else out. 

 

I'd assume a proper wooden humidor, placed somewhere that the temperature is relatively stable, is more likely to hold a steady temp than a plastic box. I'll never have more than about 40 at a time, because my wife will kick my ass. I just want a simple system I can go to once or twice a week for a nice cigar.

What would you suggest PigFish? In terms of beads and humidor? If rules prevent us from recommending stuff on here can you maybe PM me? I know you've done more than enough but I'd really appreciate it. I'd send you a few sticks but they'll be awful. Hehe... 

Cheers for joining in lads!

 

I need to come back to this when I have a moment...

I have explained the chart via a video, and remember, Mr. Piggy is not much of a videographer... -LOL

I posted it in a new thread in the humidor tutor forum but for your convenience here is the link.

 

-the Pig

[Hayden]

1 hour ago, PigFish said:

I need to come back to this when I have a moment...

I have explained the chart via a video, and remember, Mr. Piggy is not much of a videographer... -LOL

I posted it in a new thread in the humidor tutor forum but for your convenience here is the link.

 

-the Pig

Really good video. I'm still not convinced it is solely adsorption. While it may be modelled as such plant matter is made of membranous cells and since the water molecules should permeate the tobacco material it should be absorption not adsorption which is a surface phenomenon. I don't think it necessarily changes your conclusions though Pig. 

[JR Kipling]

Helpful video @PigFish thank you. I've raised temps some for my cigars, based on your chart. (An added benefit should be reduced electricity costs for the room where I keep them.)

 

[vladdraq]

@ballophun when you roll and squeeze a bit your cigars do you hear a crackling noise? Do they burn evenly?

[Winchester21]

I think that the temp problem is the culprit. Once that issue is addressed I would bet that you would be able to deal with the humidity factor. I agree that it is necessary to air out your container every 30-60 days. I fight the temp battle myself from mid June until October. I have considered putting a small free standing a/c unit from Home Depot in my cigar room which is unfortunately the warmest room in my house

[RijkdeGooier]

content was already posted by Ray - here's a random pic to apologize

[JR Kipling]

I'm trying to figure out how Boveda packs might affect the system. Like the OP, I have 65RH Boveda packs. I had been maintaining a temp of ~ 65-66F, but after reading PigFish I've bumped that up to around 69-70F. The 65RH packs are used with my NCs, I use 62RH Bovedas for my Cubans. I'm trying to logically figure out how the 62 and 65 packs might impact things overall. Hmmmm . . any insights from others would be much appreciated !


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[soutso]

7 hours ago, JR Kipling said:

I'm trying to figure out how Boveda packs might affect the system. Like the OP, I have 65RH Boveda packs. I had been maintaining a temp of ~ 65-66F, but after reading PigFish I've bumped that up to around 69-70F. The 65RH packs are used with my NCs, I use 62RH Bovedas for my Cubans. I'm trying to logically figure out how the 62 and 65 packs might impact things overall. Hmmmm . . any insights from others would be much appreciated !


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

I would suggest for you to just stick to the principal that the chart proves.

When you warm (or increase) the temp, the percentage moisture content of the sticks goes down.

When the temp decreases, the percentage moisture content of the cigars rise. 

 

[PigFish]

3 minutes ago, soutso said:

I would suggest for you to just stick to the principal that the chart proves.

When you warm (or increase) the temp, the percentage moisture content of the sticks goes down.

When the temp decreases, the percentage moisture content of the cigars rise. 

 

... glad to see you here...! I did not use my brain and brought you up on a thread in the humidor tutorial forum without attaching your handle. There are some questions there that I think you can address better than I can.

Cheers mate! -Ray

 

[soutso]

Just now, PigFish said:

... glad to see you here...! I did not use my brain and brought you up on a thread in the humidor tutorial forum without attaching your handle. There are some questions there that I think you can address better than I can.

Cheers mate! -Ray

 

Hey Ray, I'll check it out. I have some goofing off time!

Hope all is well, let's catch up soon. Loved the video, I was relieved to know that I read it right when I first saw it but the 3 to 1 ratio passed me by. I'm glad to have watched the video now. Pretty cool.

[PigFish]

Just now, soutso said:

Hey Ray, I'll check it out. I have some goofing off time!

Hope all is well, let's catch up soon. Loved the video, I was relieved to know that I read it right when I first saw it but the 3 to 1 ratio passed me by. I'm glad to have watched the video now. Pretty cool.

Yeah mate we have to talk. I am currently working on a modification to a humidifier specifically for you. It is turning from a simple 'glue it on and thread it,' to a machine it, O-ring seal it and mount it problem.

Since I use those polypropylene enclosures, nothing sticks to them, so my simple fix has turned in a 'fixture and fastening issue.' I think you will like the idea if I can get it to work...

Cheers! -Ray

[JR Kipling]

1 hour ago, soutso said:

I would suggest for you to just stick to the principal that the chart proves.

When you warm (or increase) the temp, the percentage moisture content of the sticks goes down.

When the temp decreases, the percentage moisture content of the cigars rise. 

 

 

Yes, of course. Actually I'm really thinking in terms of the 65% Bovedas I have, instead of more 62s. Will have to do a little experimenting to see how slightly higher temp and lower RH work for me. 

Next question I'll do a forum search on:  What is the 'optimum' moisture content level in a cigar ?  

[soutso]

1 hour ago, JR Kipling said:

 

Yes, of course. Actually I'm really thinking in terms of the 65% Bovedas I have, instead of more 62s. Will have to do a little experimenting to see how slightly higher temp and lower RH work for me. 

Next question I'll do a forum search on:  What is the 'optimum' moisture content level in a cigar ?  

The problem with this is, how can the average person know the actual figure? How does one work it out without access to expensive equipment. 

I think consistent storage conditions and time are the only way for the average person to deal with this.

[JR Kipling]

True about knowing the existing actual content; that would likely take expensive equipment.
With the caveats mentioned in the video, we can use the chart as a rough guide. But the range of temperatures we may shoot for is relatively narrow - say 65-75F. Ultimately, it comes down to personal experience and preference.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[Geaux]

On 7/5/2017 at 6:17 PM, PigFish said:

I need to come back to this when I have a moment...

I have explained the chart via a video, and remember, Mr. Piggy is not much of a videographer... -LOL

I posted it in a new thread in the humidor tutor forum but for your convenience here is the link.

 

-the Pig

 

Thanks for the video - really helpful.

[PigFish]

22 hours ago, Geaux said:

Thanks for the video - really helpful.

... I do ramble, but I do get to the point eventually! -Piggy

[Randy956]

@pigfish,
you are such a patient guy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro