What am I doing wrong storage wise?

[ballophun]

I've had some cigars stored in a tupperdor for about 24 months. They started off beautifully but since smoking this HDM De Luxe on the Amalfi coast a couple of weeks ago (where I was drunk and had a cold, but could still taste the incredible flavour coming through), everything in the tupperdor tastes like crap. 

I live in Sydney, so the temperature is anywhere from 8 to 38 degrees celsius. I've kept the cigars in a cupboard for most of that time, where the temperature hasn't effected them too badly (at least I think). The humidity, according to my 2 hygrometers which I calibrated correctly, sits between 63-65. I have a few 65% boveda packs in there. 

A mate of mine gave me some damaged Cohiba Robustos that he never kept particularly well, and I added them to the tupperdor about a year ago. 

It turned out an incredible amount of mould had grown on the cigars in the tupperdor, despite it being sealed tightly.

I brushed the mould off and have smoked a few Bolivar PCs which I usually love. They taste ordinary until about the last 2 inches, where it seems they start to hit their peak, which is still pretty ordinary. They also smoke very quickly. I can down a Bolivar PC in 20 minutes, whereas it used to take me about 40. 

I reckon the Cohibas messed with what was a fairly stable environment in the box. 

I'm pretty disappointed because I don't have the money to just buy them willy nilly. 

Any suggestions? Can I revive what I have? Should I buy a desktop humidor and keep it in the closet? I usually smoke 1 a week, but didn't for a long time cause I was stuck on cigarettes. I only checked the tupperdor every couple of months because the humidity was stable. 

Cheers

 

[99call]

Work clean! if your ever concerned about anything being susceptible to mould, before the cigars go anywhere near it, give (the chosen storage) a pure alcohol rub, then allow it to off gas, before adding your cigars.  Also I would switch to a timber storage if it were me

 I would let your cigars breath every month or so, and get a bit of air circulation

[Santiago]

Tupperdor should be opened and aired out every so often. They're much more airtight than a humidor which restricts airflow. Leaving it untouched for a couple months sounds like the culprit. 

[wabashcr]

I would check your ambient temperatures.  If it actually gets up to 38C in the cupboard where you store your cigars, that's a problem.  It takes a lot more moisture to maintain RH 63-65 at 38C than it does at 20C.  So at higher temperatures, you'll be more susceptible to mold and overhumidified cigars, even though you're holding steady at RH 65.  If possible, try to find a cooler place for them.  Barring that, drop down to a lower RH.  Boveda makes a 58RH humidity pack.

[BrightonCorgi]

I don't believe you want storage to really "air tight" some circulation helps.

[stogieluver]

If you're smoking a petite corona in 40 minutes or less, you are smoking it way too quickly, imo.  Smoking too quickly will make it taste like crap. PC's should take at least 50-60 minutes, minimum. Try slowing down between draws on those sticks. 

Also, if you're smoking in a high ambient rH environment, it will adversely affect the draw & taste, especially toward the end. 

 

[PigFish]

... a lot of speculation on this thread, some close to accurate and some lesser so.

The Boveda pack is 'based' on an aqueous salt solution for function. I say 'based' because there are only one or two of them that will actually perform as pure aqueous salts, as only one or two of them actually contain pure aqueous salts. This caveat is for the sake of accuracy and not really the point.

@wabashcr is closest to the mark here. The problem is that you are using (basically) a 'constant delivery' product where there is no constant temperature. He is right, the varying temperature is what is killing you. Where I differ with him is in the continued recommendation of the Boveda as a product of choice.

Varying temperatures, to this extreme are going to raise hell with your storage. Water is going to migrate 'en masse' to and from the cigars and to and from a water source with such variations. When using mixed media, the aqueous salt and the tobacco as hygroscopic substances, the hysteresis of such materials not being the same, you will find times where the rH in the container may well be 100rH and the cigars are saturated and the Boveda is dry... This is a problem with the hysteresis of the Boveda, the range of temperature and the ease at which the cigar will adsorb water vapor.

Even if you remove the Boveda, you will find that heating the cigar hoard, and then cooling it beyond the hysteresis of the tobacco will cause water to condense inside the container. The rH will move to 100rH, the wrappers and binders will take up 100rH EMC and you will get capillary water an mold.

Frankly, you are likely better with no water source here, or with a heap of desiccant that will fight the tobacco for possession of the free water. But the plan is still iffy with the temperature range. The temperature range will still cook water out of the desiccant and cigars, and a rapid cooling will still result in it 'raining' in the box.

You simply must find a more temperature stable environment for your cigars or the same thing will happen to them. In this case, as stated, a desiccant product for a buffer will serve you better than the Boveda, they are not meant for this... but the desiccant product will not be a panacea by any stretch. A high quality engineered, high density desiccant may, and I emphasize 'may' solve this, but I would not bet on it.

Best of luck on your storage! -the Pig

 

[Geaux]

Hello Mr the Pig -

 

I always find your content rich and thought-provoking, but I must admit to always coming away from reading your posts with more questions than I started with. Ha! That may well be the intent of your posts, and if so, well done Sir.

 

Question from this post is pretty simple - Are the silicagel desiccants found in electronic's packaging worthy of "high quality, high density" status? Do they vary at all from the silica cat litter?

 

Follow up:  Which vessel wins the battle for free water in a humidor-like environment: Cigar vs. equal massed silicagel desiccant? Or is this dependant on the temp variable as well? Maybe at one temp, the cigar pulls more moisture and at another temp the desiccant does....? 

[Hayden]

3 hours ago, Geaux said:

Hello Mr the Pig -

 

I always find your content rich and thought-provoking, but I must admit to always coming away from reading your posts with more questions than I started with. Ha! That may well be the intent of your posts, and if so, well done Sir.

 

Question from this post is pretty simple - Are the silicagel desiccants found in electronic's packaging worthy of "high quality, high density" status? Do they vary at all from the silica cat litter?

 

Follow up:  Which vessel wins the battle for free water in a humidor-like environment: Cigar vs. equal massed silicagel desiccant? Or is this dependant on the temp variable as well? Maybe at one temp, the cigar pulls more moisture and at another temp the desiccant does....? 

An interesting comment from Steve Saka on another forum about this topic: 

Fwiw, this question of temperature and its impact on relative humidity levels and what that actually means in regards to absolute humidity use to drive me crazy. I read a ton of stuff by a lot of scientifically minded folks explaining to me how it has a definite impact. And when I read it all, it made sense...

BUT, my own personal experience never beared this out. It seemed like about 70% RH was right regardless of temperature.

So I decided to do a large scale test.

First, let me say that the RH is the not the actual goal when it comes to cigar storage moisture wise. What you really want to have happen is for the absolute moisture content of a handmade cigar to fall between 10% to 12% (or if you are like me, 9% for heavy bodied cigars.)

The problem for the average joe is you need a very sophisticated moisture meter that has been specifically calibrated for air cured, leaf tobaccos. The cheapest I have ever found that was trustworthy costs about $1900 USD and is sold by ATM in Holland.

Anyhow, I own two...

So I got the fancy meter, I got 300 identical cigars, I got three humidors loaded with 100 cigars each and each with an RH Standard - one with 65%, one with 67% and the third with 70%, and as it would so happen I actually had access to a temperature controlled insulated storage room where I could vary the temp from 45 degrees to 90 degrees.

I tested the cigars from all three humidors at 5 different temp levels with a fixed RH and the in the end the moisture content actually contained in the cigars varied by less than .25% all the way from 45 degrees to 90 degrees.

So personally I had come to the conclusion that I could ignore the temp, go for the desired RH and the resulting storage environment moisture wise would be A-OK. In short, ignore everything I read about temp vs rh and the fancy graphs and just try to establish a 70% RH.

However, it still drove me crazy not understanding why my own tests seemed so contradictory to what others were so adamant about and had plenty of scientific writings to confirm their viewpoint.

 

So I asked a cigar smoking acquaintance of mine who happen to be a Doctor of Chemistry from UC Berkeley, Dr. Robert Chasteler, if he could shed any light on this. In my opinion, this guy is 100 times smarter than me so I figured maybe he could explain me why the Science vs. My Own Realword Expeiences were jibing.

And here is his reply to me from October 17, 2000:

 

Steve,

This ended up being harder than I thought. Being a scientist by education I guess I just grasp the concept so easily. But while smoking my evening stogie last nite it came to me how to do it. I have included the easy description for the non-scientific minded and then delve a little into the scientific concepts. Any questions regarding this just ask. If you decide to use it just remember to give credit where cigars (I mean credit) is due.

Absolute vs. Relative (the final solution)

The key premise we must all agree upon is that the goal we wish to achieve is to keep a constant amount of moisture in our cigars.

The definition of relative humidity is the vapor pressure of water in the atmosphere relative to maximum vapor pressure of water that the atmosphere can sustain. The maximum amount of vapor pressure of water that can be sustained in the atmosphere is temperature dependent. This is due to the fact that as the temperature rises, more water will evaporate due to the increased temperature. This argument holds true whether the water is coming from a dish of water or any object that contains water, like a cigar.

A cigar is in a closed system when the temperature is raised will cause water from the cigar to evaporate increasing the vapor pressure of water in the atmosphere. If something in the system is keeping the vapor pressure of water in the atmosphere constant, the cigar will keep drying out until a new equilibrium inside the cigar is reached and the cellular structure won't give off any more water at that temperature. But the net effect is the moisture content is decreased and a dry stogie results.

The reverse situation also will cause problems. Again a cigar is a closed system when the temperature is lowered. It will absorb some of the water vapor since the temperature can only maintain so much water in the vapor phase. If something in the system is keeping the vapor pressure of water in the atmosphere constant, the cigar will keep absorbing water again until the cellular structure is overloaded with water. The net effect here is the moisture content in the cigar increased and now you have a wet stogie.

If some device is in the system, which will keep the relative humidity constant (that is as the temperature rises it will increase the water vapor pressure proportionately and as the temperature lowers will decrease the water vapor pressure proportionately) the problem is solved. In the increase temperature situation the cigar will try to evaporate more moisture but the vapor pressure of water in the atmosphere is already great enough not to evaporate any. And in the decreased temperature situation the cigar will want to absorb more water but the vapor pressure has already been lowered.

Now the above argument only truly holds true for a cigar with a substantial amount of contained water. A very dry cigar (< 1% water) will skew this logic since now the cellular structure's affinity for water will over power the evaporation due to the increase in temperature. One has to have cigar that have equilibrated to some reasonable moisture content (keep them in a humidor at 70 degrees F and 70% relative humidity until the system stabilizes).

A more scientific derivation is below:

The physical laws that are governing this situation is the process of evaporation and absorption. The formula for evaporation from a dish of water is:

Rate of evaporation = Constant1 * Temperature * Temperature/Vapor Pressure of Water

The formula for absorption into a dish of water is:

Rate of absorption = Constant2 * Vapor Pressure of Water

Equilibrium is when the two rates equal each other.

Rearranging yields: Vapor Pressure of Water = Temperature * Constant3

Where Constant3 is a mathematical expression of Constant1 and Constant2 and is insignificant since the net result is that the Vapor Pressure of Water is directly proportional to the Temperature. This is exact behavior of the maximum vapor pressure of water in the atmosphere.

The same equations for a cigar are only slightly different since now one must include the Water Content in the cigar as a variable. Here are the new equations:

Evaporation = Constant1TemperatureTemperature*Water Content/Vapor Pressure of Water

Absorption = Constant2 * Vapor Pressure of Water/Water Content

In a system with constant temperature and water vapor pressure (in an ideal humidor 70/70), if the Water Content is too high the Evaporation rate will larger than the Absorption rate and the cigar will dry out until equilibrium is reached. And the inverse works for a too dry cigar. This is how our humidors do their job.

For a cigar at equilibrium (70/70 system), the Water Content can now be moved into the Constants since it is now a constant also. In this system we are going to keep the relative humidity constant. If the Temperature is raised 5%, the Vapor Pressure of Water will increase proportionately, 5%, from the first set of equations. For the cigar equations the rate of evaporation will go only go up 5% since the increase in Vapor Pressure of Water cancels one of the Temperature increase. But the rate of absorption will go up 5% also and no change in the cigar.

Bottom line, Relative Humidity is the way to go.

Dr. Bob Chasteler

 

So there you go. Do with it what you will, but for me RH is RH is RH when it comes to cigar storage in closed environment.

Steve Saka

'told ya' I was a cigar geek'

 

[einzelgaenger]

12 hours ago, ballophun said:

I've had some cigars stored in a tupperdor for about 24 months. They started off beautifully but since smoking this HDM De Luxe on the Amalfi coast a couple of weeks ago (where I was drunk and had a cold, but could still taste the incredible flavour coming through), everything in the tupperdor tastes like crap. 

I live in Sydney, so the temperature is anywhere from 8 to 38 degrees celsius. I've kept the cigars in a cupboard for most of that time, where the temperature hasn't effected them too badly (at least I think). The humidity, according to my 2 hygrometers which I calibrated correctly, sits between 63-65. I have a few 65% boveda packs in there. 

A mate of mine gave me some damaged Cohiba Robustos that he never kept particularly well, and I added them to the tupperdor about a year ago. 

It turned out an incredible amount of mould had grown on the cigars in the tupperdor, despite it being sealed tightly.

I brushed the mould off and have smoked a few Bolivar PCs which I usually love. They taste ordinary until about the last 2 inches, where it seems they start to hit their peak, which is still pretty ordinary. They also smoke very quickly. I can down a Bolivar PC in 20 minutes, whereas it used to take me about 40. 

I reckon the Cohibas messed with what was a fairly stable environment in the box. 

I'm pretty disappointed because I don't have the money to just buy them willy nilly. 

Any suggestions? Can I revive what I have? Should I buy a desktop humidor and keep it in the closet? I usually smoke 1 a week, but didn't for a long time cause I was stuck on cigarettes. I only checked the tupperdor every couple of months because the humidity was stable. 

Cheers

 

How many cigars are you keeping in your tupperdor? How many Boveda packs?

[luvdunhill]

I can provide some data points here. I have six tupperdores with 190, 155, 165, 160, 175 and 170 cigars. I use one mega-sized Boveda in each.

[einzelgaenger]

9 minutes ago, luvdunhill said:

I can provide some data points here. I have six tupperdores with 190, 155, 165, 160, 175 and 170 cigars. I use one mega-sized Boveda in each.

By mega-sized you mean the 320g pack?

[luvdunhill]

By mega-sized you mean the 320g pack?

Yes indeed.

[soutso]

1 hour ago, Hayden said:

An interesting comment from Steve Saka on another forum about this topic: 

Fwiw, this question of temperature and its impact on relative humidity levels and what that actually means in regards to absolute humidity use to drive me crazy. I read a ton of stuff by a lot of scientifically minded folks explaining to me how it has a definite impact. And when I read it all, it made sense...

BUT, my own personal experience never beared this out. It seemed like about 70% RH was right regardless of temperature.

So I decided to do a large scale test.

First, let me say that the RH is the not the actual goal when it comes to cigar storage moisture wise. What you really want to have happen is for the absolute moisture content of a handmade cigar to fall between 10% to 12% (or if you are like me, 9% for heavy bodied cigars.)

The problem for the average joe is you need a very sophisticated moisture meter that has been specifically calibrated for air cured, leaf tobaccos. The cheapest I have ever found that was trustworthy costs about $1900 USD and is sold by ATM in Holland.

Anyhow, I own two...

So I got the fancy meter, I got 300 identical cigars, I got three humidors loaded with 100 cigars each and each with an RH Standard - one with 65%, one with 67% and the third with 70%, and as it would so happen I actually had access to a temperature controlled insulated storage room where I could vary the temp from 45 degrees to 90 degrees.

I tested the cigars from all three humidors at 5 different temp levels with a fixed RH and the in the end the moisture content actually contained in the cigars varied by less than .25% all the way from 45 degrees to 90 degrees.

So personally I had come to the conclusion that I could ignore the temp, go for the desired RH and the resulting storage environment moisture wise would be A-OK. In short, ignore everything I read about temp vs rh and the fancy graphs and just try to establish a 70% RH.

However, it still drove me crazy not understanding why my own tests seemed so contradictory to what others were so adamant about and had plenty of scientific writings to confirm their viewpoint.

 

So I asked a cigar smoking acquaintance of mine who happen to be a Doctor of Chemistry from UC Berkeley, Dr. Robert Chasteler, if he could shed any light on this. In my opinion, this guy is 100 times smarter than me so I figured maybe he could explain me why the Science vs. My Own Realword Expeiences were jibing.

And here is his reply to me from October 17, 2000:

 

Steve,

This ended up being harder than I thought. Being a scientist by education I guess I just grasp the concept so easily. But while smoking my evening stogie last nite it came to me how to do it. I have included the easy description for the non-scientific minded and then delve a little into the scientific concepts. Any questions regarding this just ask. If you decide to use it just remember to give credit where cigars (I mean credit) is due.

Absolute vs. Relative (the final solution)

The key premise we must all agree upon is that the goal we wish to achieve is to keep a constant amount of moisture in our cigars.

The definition of relative humidity is the vapor pressure of water in the atmosphere relative to maximum vapor pressure of water that the atmosphere can sustain. The maximum amount of vapor pressure of water that can be sustained in the atmosphere is temperature dependent. This is due to the fact that as the temperature rises, more water will evaporate due to the increased temperature. This argument holds true whether the water is coming from a dish of water or any object that contains water, like a cigar.

A cigar is in a closed system when the temperature is raised will cause water from the cigar to evaporate increasing the vapor pressure of water in the atmosphere. If something in the system is keeping the vapor pressure of water in the atmosphere constant, the cigar will keep drying out until a new equilibrium inside the cigar is reached and the cellular structure won't give off any more water at that temperature. But the net effect is the moisture content is decreased and a dry stogie results.

The reverse situation also will cause problems. Again a cigar is a closed system when the temperature is lowered. It will absorb some of the water vapor since the temperature can only maintain so much water in the vapor phase. If something in the system is keeping the vapor pressure of water in the atmosphere constant, the cigar will keep absorbing water again until the cellular structure is overloaded with water. The net effect here is the moisture content in the cigar increased and now you have a wet stogie.

If some device is in the system, which will keep the relative humidity constant (that is as the temperature rises it will increase the water vapor pressure proportionately and as the temperature lowers will decrease the water vapor pressure proportionately) the problem is solved. In the increase temperature situation the cigar will try to evaporate more moisture but the vapor pressure of water in the atmosphere is already great enough not to evaporate any. And in the decreased temperature situation the cigar will want to absorb more water but the vapor pressure has already been lowered.

Now the above argument only truly holds true for a cigar with a substantial amount of contained water. A very dry cigar (< 1% water) will skew this logic since now the cellular structure's affinity for water will over power the evaporation due to the increase in temperature. One has to have cigar that have equilibrated to some reasonable moisture content (keep them in a humidor at 70 degrees F and 70% relative humidity until the system stabilizes).

A more scientific derivation is below:

The physical laws that are governing this situation is the process of evaporation and absorption. The formula for evaporation from a dish of water is:

Rate of evaporation = Constant1 * Temperature * Temperature/Vapor Pressure of Water

The formula for absorption into a dish of water is:

Rate of absorption = Constant2 * Vapor Pressure of Water

Equilibrium is when the two rates equal each other.

Rearranging yields: Vapor Pressure of Water = Temperature * Constant3

Where Constant3 is a mathematical expression of Constant1 and Constant2 and is insignificant since the net result is that the Vapor Pressure of Water is directly proportional to the Temperature. This is exact behavior of the maximum vapor pressure of water in the atmosphere.

The same equations for a cigar are only slightly different since now one must include the Water Content in the cigar as a variable. Here are the new equations:

Evaporation = Constant1TemperatureTemperature*Water Content/Vapor Pressure of Water

Absorption = Constant2 * Vapor Pressure of Water/Water Content

In a system with constant temperature and water vapor pressure (in an ideal humidor 70/70), if the Water Content is too high the Evaporation rate will larger than the Absorption rate and the cigar will dry out until equilibrium is reached. And the inverse works for a too dry cigar. This is how our humidors do their job.

For a cigar at equilibrium (70/70 system), the Water Content can now be moved into the Constants since it is now a constant also. In this system we are going to keep the relative humidity constant. If the Temperature is raised 5%, the Vapor Pressure of Water will increase proportionately, 5%, from the first set of equations. For the cigar equations the rate of evaporation will go only go up 5% since the increase in Vapor Pressure of Water cancels one of the Temperature increase. But the rate of absorption will go up 5% also and no change in the cigar.

Bottom line, Relative Humidity is the way to go.

Dr. Bob Chasteler

 

So there you go. Do with it what you will, but for me RH is RH is RH when it comes to cigar storage in closed environment.

Steve Saka

'told ya' I was a cigar geek'

 

Hi Hayden,

Wether I agree or disagree with someone's storage techniques and beliefs I am always interested to hear about them. It's the best way to learn.

I will assume that you aim for a RH level of 70 and I also assume that you like the taste of your cigars. I'd like to ask you about some of the characteristics of what you consider to be your 'ready for smoking cigars'. For simplicity's sake let's call them 'smoking' cigars.

1. What length of time do you wait for before breaking into a box? Do you believe that the longer you wait the better the box seems to get?

2. Are your 'smoking' cigars (assuming good construction) solid to touch? Stiff as opposed to spongey feeling? Do they crackle slightly if you squeeze them gently?

3. Do the bands move freely up and down the body of the cigar in your cigars that you've had long term? 

4. When you smoke a cigar do you ever notice that the ash is slightly smaller than the unsmoked part of the cigar?

I ask the above because that is what I look for when choosing a cigar to smoke. These cigars give me the best flavour and experience.

Like you, I've experimented over the years and whilst I am the biggest meathead compared to an educated scientist, (hell, I'm confident that I'm a meathead compared to you! Lol) I firmly believe that temperature control gets my cigars to the characteristics described above, more than anything else. I'm not saying that it's the only factor, just that it gets me there quickest. 

Thanks for your post, please don't take 17 years to share such valuable opinion/information Lol

[einzelgaenger]

29 minutes ago, luvdunhill said:

 

Yes indeed.

 

I also use them and the rip-off mounting plates. Really simplifies things. Toss in as many of those suckers as one can fit and forget about it. (as long as one is within a temp controlled space, anyway)

[einzelgaenger]

1 hour ago, Hayden said:

An interesting comment from Steve Saka on another forum about this topic:  ......................

 

 

Not to start an age-old fight, and I hope no offense taken, but this long-in-the-tooth Saka post that temp is irrelevant when it comes to cigar quality is hogwash  Temp is very relevant. Just as relevant as RH. 

[Hayden]

17 minutes ago, soutso said:

Hi Hayden,

Wether I agree or disagree with someone's storage techniques and beliefs I am always interested to hear about them. It's the best way to learn.

I will assume that you aim for a RH level of 70 and I also assume that you like the taste of your cigars. I'd like to ask you about some of the characteristics of what you consider to be your 'ready for smoking cigars'. For simplicity's sake let's call them 'smoking' cigars.

1. What length of time do you wait for before breaking into a box? Do you believe that the longer you wait the better the box seems to get?

2. Are your 'smoking' cigars (assuming good construction) solid to touch? Stiff as opposed to spongey feeling? Do they crackle slightly if you squeeze them gently?

3. Do the bands move freely up and down the body of the cigar in your cigars that you've had long term? 

4. When you smoke a cigar do you ever notice that the ash is slightly smaller than the unsmoked part of the cigar?

I ask the above because that is what I look for when choosing a cigar to smoke. These cigars give me the best flavour and experience.

Like you, I've experimented over the years and whilst I am the biggest meathead compared to an educated scientist, (hell, I'm confident that I'm a meathead compared to you! Lol) I firmly believe that temperature control gets my cigars to the characteristics described above, more than anything else. I'm not saying that it's the only factor, just that it gets me there quickest. 

Thanks for your post, please don't take 17 years to share such valuable opinion/information Lol

First this wasn't me who did this I just found it an interesting perspective from someone in the industry. It was posted by Steve Saka (former master blender for Drew Estate and current CEO of Dunbarton Tobacco & Trust). I'm pretty new to the hobby but store my own cigars at 65%. I don't have much experience ageing cigars. 

[Hayden]

5 minutes ago, einzelgaenger said:

Not to start an age-old fight, and I hope no offense taken, but this long-in-the-tooth Saka post that temp is irrelevant when it comes to cigar quality is hogwash  Temp is very relevant. Just as relevant as RH. 

I don't have enough experience to argue for either side. In terms of the total water content in the cigar the science makes sense to me but I am sure there are other factor's to consider especially when considering ageing. 

[PigFish]

1 hour ago, Geaux said:

Hello Mr the Pig -

 

I always find your content rich and thought-provoking, but I must admit to always coming away from reading your posts with more questions than I started with. Ha! That may well be the intent of your posts, and if so, well done Sir.

 

Question from this post is pretty simple - Are the silicagel desiccants found in electronic's packaging worthy of "high quality, high density" status? Do they vary at all from the silica cat litter?

 

Follow up:  Which vessel wins the battle for free water in a humidor-like environment: Cigar vs. equal massed silicagel desiccant? Or is this dependant on the temp variable as well? Maybe at one temp, the cigar pulls more moisture and at another temp the desiccant does....? 

... well, I would like to think that my posts on cigar climatology are perfectly clear! -LOL Now, political and philosophical posts... those are a different story!!!

I would think that chipped silica for single use desiccation use would be an engineered desiccant, but like all things from different suppliers you will find different grades, densities and qualities. I often add a desiccant silo in my projects and for that I procure, mix and blend water resistant desiccants, high density (non pure silica substrate) desiccants that I combine for specific characteristics for my projects. My particular point is that I am looking for high rates of adsorption and adsorption to 100rH where the slope of the isotherm is more vertical than horizontal in the areas that most smokers wish to store cigars (from 60 to 70 rH).

Since most of the packaged products are considered disposable, I think that you will generally find 'lower quality' adsorbents than what would be used in refining. The refinery will buy desiccants by the ton and they need to be robust and cost effective, they must also have a lengthy regeneration-cycle lifespan. The cost of the desiccant and its usage will ultimately reflect on the profitability of the end product. These are not really considered 'single use' disposable desiccants. For the record this is what I buy...

Cat litter is a single use desiccant, and frankly it is not really designed for water storage. Its use is to absorb, not adsorb but desorb water. Let me explain. Cat litter is for cats to piss in!!! The idea is absorb the odorous elements of cat urine, urea and the like, and desorb the water back into the atmosphere promoting the service life of the product. Cat litter is not about water storage, but the opposite. Yes, it does come to an ERH that matches your home like any other desiccant would, but the whole point of it is to collect the odor agents and not the water.

Engineered refining desiccants are engineered for different purposes, cleaning water, natural gas, refining hydrogen etc... These desiccants are purpose built for tasks and the collection water from natural gas is one such task...

The next question is a bit more technical and frankly I will tell you that I honestly don't know the answer, but I will hazard a logical guess. This is a question about the differential hysteresis of two hygroscopic materials. Tobacco is hygroscopic, lets say coincidentally. Some may argue, but biological function is in my mind God given! Off the topic, yes but that is part of the answer. There are natural desiccants, more suited to desiccant purposes than tobacco. Desiccants are hygroscopic materials. Tobacco is hygroscopic but not what I would refer to as desiccant. Charcoal is a natural desiccant for example. In comparison to tobacco, if you were comparing items from nature not engineered for a task, then I would choose the charcoal over the tobacco as a desiccant if those were my only choices. The fact is then, that water bonds better and more readily and predictably to some substances than to all substances. The density or pathways in the substance, the 'holes' or pores in the substance all play a role in surface area and therefore the hydroscopicity and affinity for water.

So if I am guessing, I would say that your engineered desiccant will be more attractive than its non-engineered counter part, tobacco for instance. However, each part is going to go to equilibrium rH based on the net free water in the ambient space eventually. What will determine the rate and attractiveness of each component will the hysteresis of each product. The wider the hysteresis, the greater the lag time, the less likely it will up-take first. Either way, over time both products will take their fill based on the isothermal behavior of the individual substances and the free water. That will never change as it defines equilibrium...

We have therefore come full circle. This is a hysteresis question and the wider hysteresis is likely found in the complete cigar. One leaf all by itself may be quite different. The wrapper may saturate very quickly as it is planer material in a cylinder. The inner of the cigar is bunch and bound by near tobacco. There are a lot of potential factors here!

Your wrapper leaf may very well be the first to take water, then the desiccant, then the whole cigar.

Hope that helps...

-Piggy

[PigFish]

3 hours ago, Hayden said:

An interesting comment from Steve Saka on another forum about this topic: 

Fwiw, this question of temperature and its impact on relative humidity levels and what that actually means in regards to absolute humidity use to drive me crazy. I read a ton of stuff by a lot of scientifically minded folks explaining to me how it has a definite impact. And when I read it all, it made sense...

BUT, my own personal experience never beared this out. It seemed like about 70% RH was right regardless of temperature.

So I decided to do a large scale test.

First, let me say that the RH is the not the actual goal when it comes to cigar storage moisture wise. What you really want to have happen is for the absolute moisture content of a handmade cigar to fall between 10% to 12% (or if you are like me, 9% for heavy bodied cigars.)

The problem for the average joe is you need a very sophisticated moisture meter that has been specifically calibrated for air cured, leaf tobaccos. The cheapest I have ever found that was trustworthy costs about $1900 USD and is sold by ATM in Holland.

Anyhow, I own two...

So I got the fancy meter, I got 300 identical cigars, I got three humidors loaded with 100 cigars each and each with an RH Standard - one with 65%, one with 67% and the third with 70%, and as it would so happen I actually had access to a temperature controlled insulated storage room where I could vary the temp from 45 degrees to 90 degrees.

I tested the cigars from all three humidors at 5 different temp levels with a fixed RH and the in the end the moisture content actually contained in the cigars varied by less than .25% all the way from 45 degrees to 90 degrees.

So personally I had come to the conclusion that I could ignore the temp, go for the desired RH and the resulting storage environment moisture wise would be A-OK. In short, ignore everything I read about temp vs rh and the fancy graphs and just try to establish a 70% RH.

However, it still drove me crazy not understanding why my own tests seemed so contradictory to what others were so adamant about and had plenty of scientific writings to confirm their viewpoint.

 

So I asked a cigar smoking acquaintance of mine who happen to be a Doctor of Chemistry from UC Berkeley, Dr. Robert Chasteler, if he could shed any light on this. In my opinion, this guy is 100 times smarter than me so I figured maybe he could explain me why the Science vs. My Own Realword Expeiences were jibing.

And here is his reply to me from October 17, 2000:

 

Steve,

This ended up being harder than I thought. Being a scientist by education I guess I just grasp the concept so easily. But while smoking my evening stogie last nite it came to me how to do it. I have included the easy description for the non-scientific minded and then delve a little into the scientific concepts. Any questions regarding this just ask. If you decide to use it just remember to give credit where cigars (I mean credit) is due.

Absolute vs. Relative (the final solution)

The key premise we must all agree upon is that the goal we wish to achieve is to keep a constant amount of moisture in our cigars.

The definition of relative humidity is the vapor pressure of water in the atmosphere relative to maximum vapor pressure of water that the atmosphere can sustain. The maximum amount of vapor pressure of water that can be sustained in the atmosphere is temperature dependent. This is due to the fact that as the temperature rises, more water will evaporate due to the increased temperature. This argument holds true whether the water is coming from a dish of water or any object that contains water, like a cigar.

A cigar is in a closed system when the temperature is raised will cause water from the cigar to evaporate increasing the vapor pressure of water in the atmosphere. If something in the system is keeping the vapor pressure of water in the atmosphere constant, the cigar will keep drying out until a new equilibrium inside the cigar is reached and the cellular structure won't give off any more water at that temperature. But the net effect is the moisture content is decreased and a dry stogie results.

The reverse situation also will cause problems. Again a cigar is a closed system when the temperature is lowered. It will absorb some of the water vapor since the temperature can only maintain so much water in the vapor phase. If something in the system is keeping the vapor pressure of water in the atmosphere constant, the cigar will keep absorbing water again until the cellular structure is overloaded with water. The net effect here is the moisture content in the cigar increased and now you have a wet stogie.

If some device is in the system, which will keep the relative humidity constant (that is as the temperature rises it will increase the water vapor pressure proportionately and as the temperature lowers will decrease the water vapor pressure proportionately) the problem is solved. In the increase temperature situation the cigar will try to evaporate more moisture but the vapor pressure of water in the atmosphere is already great enough not to evaporate any. And in the decreased temperature situation the cigar will want to absorb more water but the vapor pressure has already been lowered.

Now the above argument only truly holds true for a cigar with a substantial amount of contained water. A very dry cigar (< 1% water) will skew this logic since now the cellular structure's affinity for water will over power the evaporation due to the increase in temperature. One has to have cigar that have equilibrated to some reasonable moisture content (keep them in a humidor at 70 degrees F and 70% relative humidity until the system stabilizes).

A more scientific derivation is below:

The physical laws that are governing this situation is the process of evaporation and absorption. The formula for evaporation from a dish of water is:

Rate of evaporation = Constant1 * Temperature * Temperature/Vapor Pressure of Water

The formula for absorption into a dish of water is:

Rate of absorption = Constant2 * Vapor Pressure of Water

Equilibrium is when the two rates equal each other.

Rearranging yields: Vapor Pressure of Water = Temperature * Constant3

Where Constant3 is a mathematical expression of Constant1 and Constant2 and is insignificant since the net result is that the Vapor Pressure of Water is directly proportional to the Temperature. This is exact behavior of the maximum vapor pressure of water in the atmosphere.

The same equations for a cigar are only slightly different since now one must include the Water Content in the cigar as a variable. Here are the new equations:

Evaporation = Constant1TemperatureTemperature*Water Content/Vapor Pressure of Water

Absorption = Constant2 * Vapor Pressure of Water/Water Content

In a system with constant temperature and water vapor pressure (in an ideal humidor 70/70), if the Water Content is too high the Evaporation rate will larger than the Absorption rate and the cigar will dry out until equilibrium is reached. And the inverse works for a too dry cigar. This is how our humidors do their job.

For a cigar at equilibrium (70/70 system), the Water Content can now be moved into the Constants since it is now a constant also. In this system we are going to keep the relative humidity constant. If the Temperature is raised 5%, the Vapor Pressure of Water will increase proportionately, 5%, from the first set of equations. For the cigar equations the rate of evaporation will go only go up 5% since the increase in Vapor Pressure of Water cancels one of the Temperature increase. But the rate of absorption will go up 5% also and no change in the cigar.

Bottom line, Relative Humidity is the way to go.

Dr. Bob Chasteler

 

So there you go. Do with it what you will, but for me RH is RH is RH when it comes to cigar storage in closed environment.

Steve Saka

'told ya' I was a cigar geek'

 

This is hocus pocus!

There is real data on the adsorption of water in tobacco and I have it... somewhere!!! -LOL The point is, it is not theoretically derived and anyone who knows anything about hygroscopic substances knows this.

Furthermore, the transfer of gaseous water, water vapor into and out of a substance is known as sorption. NOT absorption but adsorption/desorption. Anyone not offering the correct words for the phenomenon is not worth taking seriously... MHO! A two second scan of this document leaves me with serous doubts about it...

There is real isosteric data for tobacco at various heats and saturation levels and I have had it for years. There is no need to speculate about it if you research it. The facts are there, you just need look for them. It is however easier to find a line of bullshit, as opposed to the facts, on the internet... 

I have recreated a chart from some 60 years ago on burley tobacco if anyone is interested. I have posted it, this recreation of another's original work many times here. I will post it again if parties are interested. It represents empirically derived 'factual' data, not hocus pocus!

Reading this crap, it is no wonder my inbox is full of "why are my cigars moldy" inquiries...

Prof. Piggy!

[JR Kipling]

I find this topic fascinating . . . but confusing. In general, I tend to keep my NCs at about 65% RH, CCs at around 62% RH. Temp is from 65-70F. This seems to work fairly well for me. I've read various (and contradictory) arguments for what are the best conditions to store cigars. I still don't know what's 'best' from the scientific standpoint. I look forward to going back and reading the detailed explanations given earlier in the thread.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[Hayden]

39 minutes ago, PigFish said:

This is hocus pocus!

There is real data on the adsorption of water in tobacco and I have it... somewhere!!! -LOL The point is, it is not theoretically derived and anyone who knows anything about hygroscopic substances knows this.

Furthermore, the transfer of gaseous water, water vapor into and out of a substance is known as sorption. NOT absorption but adsorption/desorption. Anyone not offering the correct words for the phenomenon is not worth taking seriously... MHO! A two second scan of this document leaves me with serous doubts about it...

There is real isosteric data for tobacco at various heats and saturation levels and I have had it for years. There is no need to speculate about it if you research it. The facts are there, you just need look for them. It is however easier to find a line of bullshit, as opposed to the facts, on the internet... 

I have recreated a chart from some 60 years ago on burley tobacco if anyone is interested. I have posted it, this recreation of another's original work many times here. I will post it again if parties are interested. It represents empirically derived 'factual' data, not hocus pocus!

Reading this crap, it is no wonder my inbox is full of "why are my cigars moldy" inquiries...

Prof. Piggy!

Interesting! I would love to see it so I can have a deeper look into it. Like I said I don't know too much just thought it was interesting. It was my understanding that adsorption only refers to adherence of water to a surface. And sorption refers to the combination of adsorption and absorption. 

[PigFish]

Most of my study in this particular area comes under the topic of gas separation via adsorption. This defines the context of this process as long as we are not discussing the 'wetting' or dowsing of leaf with liquid water prior to rolling. Conditioning cigars in a humidor where no direct liquid water contact is considered wise or customary, is considered equilibrium adsorption... No hocus pocus required. It is plain and not necessarily simple equilibrium adsorption... This is a well defined topic and one of the three mechanisms (as I remember it) adsorbents use (or are used) for gas separation. There is plenty of good reading available on this topic for those who wish to research it.

In this case water (vapor) is the gas and tobacco is the adsorbent. If there are multiple adsorbents (as indicated by the OP) then there will competition for free water (gas).

@Geaux asked a direct question about what 'vessel' might be affected, filled first, or more attractive. There is certainly an answer but I won't pretend to have that data at hand, so I hazard only a guess.

The attached is not my original work but taken from a study on tobacco adsorption. The chart originally was drafted 50 or 60 years ago as my memory serves me. Since it lacked the detail I wanted I redrew it in CAD so that I could scale and study the data more closely.

The precision and accuracy of the data can certainly be questioned. However as I see it, the concept regarding the affects of both temperature and rH on the adsorption of water vapor by tobacco are clearly illustrated.

I hope this helps... -Piggy

[Geaux]

Great - now more questions....  Ha!

 

So if my amateur eyes read this data with rightability (that was for the bloke complaining about Americanese) - it looks like the green box is the area where cigars absorb water vapor....  Am I doing it righly?

[PigFish]

1 hour ago, Geaux said:

Great - now more questions....  Ha!

 

So if my amateur eyes read this data with rightability (that was for the bloke complaining about Americanese) - it looks like the green box is the area where cigars absorb water vapor....  Am I doing it righly?

I will spend some time explaining what I feel is pertinent about the chart, just not right at the moment. I have a few things on the plate today...

Cheers! -Piggy