Great quality tobacco taste vs flavour nuance!?

[PigFish]

3 minutes ago, backbone said:

I love a Monte #4 with an ice cold Budweiser....mmmm

... you are smoking and drinking the best of the best mate... Life gets no better than the popular choices!!! -LOL

Now I gotta' get into the shop!

[Ken Gargett]

On 29/06/2017 at 3:00 AM, PigFish said:

Ahh Ken. Read with some levity okay... 

 

... gotta question for you Ken. If top rollers select their own tobacco, and each top roller is doing his own thing, how would you account for blending? Is this done in committee??? (That's commie humor... -LOL) I have to ask, when two equal rollers meet in a blind alley, do they argue over it leaf by leaf...?

Does the top roller do it all then? I mean does he travel to the tobacco storeroom, all of them, and then select the best tobacco for the year, the month, the day or what? Does the best tobacco in the gallery that day qualify, or does he spend a week researching the tobacco he will roll in one day??? How does he know what is best unless he sees it all?

This sounds lovely mate but I don't believe it. I am sure there are exceptions. This is Cuba. While I am often criticized for my beliefs on this forum (not whining about, I deal with it as I am quite outspoken about them) I don't believe in these 'only the best' fantasies and fairy tails. Some of us love to think that they get only the best of everything but after all we are all dependent on a supply chain somewhere and frankly some of the 'best' goes to more than one party... There is actually a damn lot of 'equivalent best' to go around to many places.

So lets say a top roller get to pick his own tobacco for the day out of the gallery's hoard. I guess if they told you so, they do! I just want to know how you guys know that you are always smoking the cigar rolled in a gallery by Hamlet or the guy that got the best tobacco that day? I mean if all the top rollers get the best tobacco, then all the tobacco in the gallery that day is only the best right? It would have to be so... In that case then, it would be impossible to get a mediocre Cohiba or any top line cigar that the Cubans consider the best right?

You say "best tobacco for the top cigars." Which cigar are those exactly...?

So this brings me to the next question. Who then ranks them, the cigars I mean? Is this not a practical question? Were you consulted, or was Rob? So what is the top Cuban cigar? The best one. The one that is always rolled by the top roller, with the best tobacco and is never and I mean never bad... Are you going to say Sir Winnie? What if the head of Tabacuba disagrees with you. Or, what about the head of HSA? 

If the rollers don't know what they are rolling, this is common knowledge for Cuban cigar company policy, how does he know if he/she is supposed to be rolling a substandard RyJ Churchill that day or the 'King' of cigars, whatever that is? I mean, is it printed on the 'big board?' "You are not rolling the Sir Winnie today, so don't bother..." Is there some secret code or something that only the 'top rollers' know? Or, the day they roll the Sir Winnie, a clarion call comes form the air raid system rallying only the 'best rollers today' to roll the Sir Winnie...? This is bringing to sound more far fetched than 'my' religion...!

I wish I knew that you knew what the one cigar that is always spectacular is... Hell I would have asked you long ago and that is the only cigar that I would bother to buy... I mean, it would be worth it, would it not? I have to wonder though with all that we have been though, why you have kept it a secret from me...? -LOL How come this valuable knowledge has not been known to the world before, I mean that the Sir Winnie is the best cigar in the world and there are none above it...?

So it is the Sir Winnie then, did you pick it or did you just find out about it? I mean there is more than one opinion here. How about this. Lets say, that like any typical thread here we ask what Churchill is best? Given the time everyone will be mentioned. Since we all think our tastes are superior, that means that every cigar that makes the list is rolled by the top roller with the best tobacco, right? Or were you and Smalls the only two queried?

This brings up another question then. So who ranks the cigars officially? I want to see 'the list' that is all that I can tell you. Did Hamlet ever show you the list? I mean the one with the one cigar at the top, the one that is never 'F'd' up! Just the ones that he rolls personally... or are only rolled by the best rollers on the nicest days with the 'best tobacco.' Please tell me!!! Please share it with us all, what are these 'top cigars' that you are talking about? Lets get the list on paper and on the record so we all know... if you buy these you are getting only the best and there will never be a bad one. I mean this is valuable stuff here!

I will continue to believe evidence as I see it over the hearsay here my friend and I know what the best tobacco goes into mate... It goes into the best cigar...! The best cigar is the cigar that you, me and Smalls agree to disagree on, because it is impossible to control. It goes randomly, because no one can tell you what a leaf will taste like by its looks alone and we have boiled it back down to personal taste yet again. The fact is not one of us can prove it any different...

Lastly. You show me a guy that can pick the best tasting leaf out of a bale and I will call the guy a liar if you don't have the courage to. I am simply not as gullible as most I suppose (or blindly stubborn... the choice is yours).

I think we all agree on the fact that Cuban tobacco is our preferred tobacco. But lets not talk about diminished reputations okay. I mean some of these roller flee the country any chance they get, best tobacco or no. No one in Cuba is signing a box. I cannot imagine that any of them would have the guts to put their name many of cigars that come out of that country today... If someones reputation was on the line they would sign boxes and we could trace the errors back to the responsible parties. Until then, there is only one 'Party' at fault. That 'Party' owns the company and everything else on the island... (More commie humor, sorry Smalls!!!) As I see it that 'Party' takes no responsibility for anything...  I mean if all the top rollers get the best tobacco, then all the tobacco in the gallery that day is only the best right? It would have to be so... In that case then, it would be impossible to get a mediocre Cohiba or any top line cigar that the Cubans consider the best right?

You have picked a bad partner if you wish to make an example of Cuba and accountability... You found one of the most infamous places on earth where they anything but accountable for anything that they do...

Cheers mate! -Ray

hi ray,

with as much levity as i could muster but first, apols for the delay. was on another small idiosyncratic island (for wine and rugby).

ray, i'm staggered you actually smoke cubans - glad you do or otherwise we'd never have any fun with each other. you seem to hate everything about them, the country, the people. or am i reading too much into it?

i did say, not that i would ever accuse anyone on this forum of putting words into someone's else's mouth (mainly because no one would care), rollers or "those who make the selections". so no, i don't think it is only the rollers wandering the halls of the storerooms. there are people who are presumably experts doing that.

now you say, "I mean if all the top rollers get the best tobacco, then all the tobacco in the gallery that day is only the best right? It would have to be so... In that case then, it would be impossible to get a mediocre Cohiba or any top line cigar that the Cubans consider the best right?" - am i missing something? they are not all "top rollers". the vast majority are not - i'm sure rob could give you the details (i seem to remember that there are 9 levels??). impossible to get a mediocre cohiba? why? these are handmade products so of course it is possible. and the tobacco they may have available at the time might be ordinary but it might still be the best available. with respect, there are so many statements in what you have written that make ridiculous claims as to what i have said or intended that i really do not have the time to go through them all. but it is what i get from you on an all-too-regular basis.

but seriously? "Lastly. You show me a guy that can pick the best tasting leaf out of a bale and I will call the guy a liar if you don't have the courage to. I am simply not as gullible as most I suppose (or blindly stubborn... the choice is yours)." (i could point out just how dripping with 'levity' your statement seems to be). so they have no idea? if that was so, how the hell do we end up with cigars from houses/marques/brands/producers/call them what you want, which have an identifiable DNA? luck? why do people go back to their favourites time and again? there'd be no point if the rollers/blenders et al had the complete absence of any skill as you seem to believe?

but more concerning than the regular re-writing of history, you've used this thread to attack one member with whom you have political differences but, with respect, you use the forum as a soapbox for your views when it suits you - i have no issue with you doing that but it is a bit rich to attack others for doing the same, and yes, there might have been some provocation but it seems to be a recurring theme. you've done it to me in respect of some issues with which we have fundamental differences of opinion (i'm more than happy to debate them with you, where permitted, but you can't have it both ways), though i suspect we have far closer views on many other things than you realise.

you then attacked another member for suggesting we ask someone who might actually know the answer to this (i've told you my thoughts, based on what i was told once by hamlet - perhaps this doesn't apply to others and if so, i'd be interested to know). the only reason i can think of that anyone would do this is because they prefer their own thoughts and do not want to know the truth. if i may say so, in the most levity-like manner i can manage.

 

 

Edited July 4, 2017 by Ken Gargett

[...]

I would tend to agree with Ken here, open mindedness has to go both ways in order to have an even playing field conversation.

Absence of evidence can't be conflated into evidence of absence...

[Doctorossi]

On 6/27/2017 at 0:01 PM, 99call said:

what are your Rolls Royce smokes?......one's that don't scream anything in particular apart from "I am made of 'THE' best tobacco available"

For me, the Hoyo DC comes immediately to mind. It's not on my short list because I do like a blend with more pronounced things to say, but if you want a premium example of the heights that can be achieved by a cigar that tastes like capital-T Tobacco, look no further. In my mind, that blend is the standard or origin point of *cigar* and everything else is an interesting detour.

[Ken Gargett]

5 minutes ago, Doctorossi said:

For me, the Hoyo DC comes immediately to mind. It's not on my short list because I do like a blend with more pronounced things to say, but if you want a premium example of the heights that can be achieved by a cigar that tastes like capital-T Tobacco, look no further. In my mind, that blend is the standard or origin point of *cigar* and everything else is an interesting detour.

i love the size of DCs but of all them, the box of hoyo i got, granted from a while back, was so utterly flavourless - and i tried them over a long period and they really got no better, that i can't imagine ever spending money on them again. SLR, Lusi's, Bol etc. all good.

[Doctorossi]

8 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

i love the size of DCs but of all them, the box of hoyo i got, granted from a while back, was so utterly flavourless - and i tried them over a long period and they really got no better, that i can't imagine ever spending money on them again. SLR, Lusi's, Bol etc. all good.

Yes. I've been fortunate enough to have never had any that I would describe as flavorless, but I've certainly had many that were lacking in nuance, lacking in complexity and lacking in oomph. For me, the best of Hoyo DCs are great examples of high-end, but middle-of-the-road... I could say, not mediocre, but plain. I'd never turn one down, but I'd buy any other DC first (the Punch DC being my soulmate).

[dominattorney]

I'll sell arms to the isle of man. Those of you who talk about a marca that has a typical dna...how well did you fare in the blind tasting? I'm not calling anyone out, since I thought I would fare better myself, but it was a humbling experience. Based on flavor alone (no size, or box press vs non box press to go by), if probably strike out on all 5. I only got the first one guessing because Rob was talking his head off about how good the punch punch was. Guessed the second by process of elimination and could have sworn the damn thing smelled a little like rice paper. The third and fourth, my luck ran out. The upmann tasted nothing like the last 50 I smoked. The Cohiba went right over my head. This last one was another complete shot in the dark, but at least you can narrow it down based on size. If there was some way to take size and appearance out of the equation, I bet no one could guess one out of 20. 

[Sean3]

JLS#2...Great core of tobacco in these.