I just don't get it

[Projectal]

1 hour ago, BellevilleMXZ said:

That said, it sure sounds like they are too damp

Agreed.

 

1 hour ago, BellevilleMXZ said:

THATS why I buy based on what Rob says is smoking well with little downtime.

 I have started making purchases based on Rob's smoke now suggestions paired with the many reviews here that share the types of flavors I prefer. So far, I haven't gone wrong since I started that approach.

[PigFish]

19 hours ago, Projectal said:

I admit, I have smoked a cigar ROTT from every box I received to date and have been very encouraged about my decision to give CCs a try. Most have been really good. It's really exciting to think they will get even better. In a couple months it will be easier to keep my hands off the new arrivals due to having a supply of properly acclimatized cigars.

I would imagine this has to do with ring gauge? Most of the NCs I smoke are huge by Cuban standards, so much so that I find I am starting to prefer the relatively smaller size of CCs. That said, I'm really liking the 48 - 50 ring gauge cigars.

 

The cigars feel solid with very little give, and have a firm, but not unpleasant draw. However, they tunnel something fierce. So if I am understanding you correctly, this point more towards moisture content?

Al

Water does not have to be evenly distributed uniformly in a cigar. It should be... but depending on shipping/storage conditions it might not be.

The cigars certainly need a break, time to acclimatize but here is the problem. If the cigars have high water, they should be pretty hard to draw. If not, then something is missing and that might just be core seco and ligero tobacco. If the cigars tunnel, there is a problem and it is likely beyond water. Sure, the wrappers and binders could be higher in water than the core, but as the cigar can burn at 1000F at the ash, I don't see this as a cause for tunneling.

Ultimately, without all the necessary questions asked it is easy to skip over what I consider the root cause of your problems here.

YOU HAVE SMOKED THOUGH A FEW POORLY CONSTRUCTED CIGARS!

Cigars properly constructed DON'T tunnel. With core richer tasting and slower burning tobaccos in the core of a properly made cigar you should be left with a convex, not a concave ash structure. While the shape of the ash is not an indicator for all cigar clues it does help to diagnose some problems, some times.

There are no hard and fast rules for your Cuban cigars. While the ones you smoked may in fact have too much water (for my taste at least) your answers indicate that this is not bothersome to you, and that these cigars, a few, or perhaps the whole box are simply poorly made.

The good news is that the whole box did not likely come from one roller's table. This means that many in the box may be wonderful cigars. I will imagine that when you find one that does not tunnel, you will actually enjoy the cigar.

Coming from large ring NC cigars, while I could be wrong, I will peg your response to draw as one far to light for me. While the thread here has nothing to do with my tastes, I have to rank you based on your smoking experience and what I know about NC verses CC smokers to analyze your answers in order to give you the best information back. Therefore, if these cigars were really properly made and filled, and wet, a typical crossover smoker (as I would describe you) would be 'pissing' (forgive the term) about the draw and likely call them plugged. Coming from your position, if you are not going down that alley, I estimate once more that some of these cigars are simply garbage made by Tabacuba, a company that does not appear to give a damn if their cigars have the proper contents or not...

In your writing I have seen more than enough clues to satisfy me. This has noting to do with your taste for this cigar. It has to do with the garbage that Tabacuba will put into a box and call a finished cigar.

I hope that helps! Best of luck on your journey!

Cheers! -Piggy

[Cep]

Interesting.

I have major tunneling issues about half the time.   I suspect you are correct about quality being the culprit.

[mygar]

3 hours ago, Cep said:

Interesting.

I have major tunneling issues about half the time.   I suspect you are correct about quality being the culprit.

Frequently i have tunneling issues as well. Assumed it was too high of mositure content. But have been questioning that... as some of the same cigars... tunneling is not an issue... but then a good portion it is... and they all have been exposed to the same conditions for a good while. Those that tunnel are a dissapointment on every level

[Cep]

ya me too.    mine start out ok, but as soon as i have to ash it you can see whats happening.

depressing.

 

[PigFish]

These are construction issues my friends and one of the reasons I bag on Tabacuba all the time. The wrapper quality is meaningless when core tobacco products are removed from the products due to neglect in manufacturing. If you punish a roller for running out of ligero, guess what, he/she will roll what is left in cigars without it, rather than get in trouble!!!

Cigars do often start mild, but you should be well on your way to identifying a tunneling cigar via the taste long before you see it as ash.

It is one thing not to trust your judgment when you are a neophyte but sooner or later you will have to bite the bullet, understand some of what you have bought is just garbage passed along by a company that takes your money and does not care otherwise what they sell you... You just have to live with it... You have to understand it and not blame yourself or the vendor for it.

I bought some Punch tubes last year and having smoked through about a box, have found a lot of them trash... It is a damn shame, take my money, waste the tobacco and human capital that was used, just to ship out a substandard product.

I will be very happy the day that someone other than the Cuban government makes a cigar that I enjoy smoking. Here is to that day!

Welcome to Cuban cigars and caveat emptor...

-the Pig

[Projectal]

1 hour ago, PigFish said:

 

These are construction issues my friends and one of the reasons I bag on Tabacuba all the time. The wrapper quality is meaningless when core tobacco products are removed from the products due to neglect in manufacturing. If you punish a roller for running out of ligero, guess what, he/she will roll what is left in cigars without it, rather than get in trouble!!!

Cigars do often start mild, but you should be well on your way to identifying a tunneling cigar via the taste long before you see it as ash.

It is one thing not to trust your judgment when you are a neophyte but sooner or later you will have to bite the bullet, understand some of what you have bought is just garbage passed along by a company that takes your money and does not care otherwise what they sell you... You just have to live with it... You have to understand it and not blame yourself or the vendor for it.

I bought some Punch tubes last year and having smoked through about a box, have found a lot of them trash... It is a damn shame, take my money, waste the tobacco and human capital that was used, just to ship out a substandard product.

I will be very happy the day that someone other than the Cuban government makes a cigar that I enjoy smoking. Here is to that day!

Welcome to Cuban cigars and caveat emptor...

-the Pig

 

My initial instinct seems to agree with you PigFish, but Im really hoping you're wrong. If the cigars dry out and smoke well, I'm not out a couple hundred dollars.

This being said, I'm smoking an El Principe right now that is absolutely delicious, with a razor sharp burn. It's been sitting in the same winador. Maybe a better comparison due to the size are the PSD4s that are also smoking great. Also stored in the same conditions.

As I said, I would love for you to be wrong, but that would mean that my RASS aren't acclimating as well as the rest of my cigars, which, the more I think about it, doesn't make much sense. None the less, I will keep them isolated in my Tupperware for the next half year before I smoke another one and see what happens. If it doesn't work out, I'll entertain myself by bringing a few to a future poker night, give them away, and watch the reactions whilst laughing on the inside. I've got to get my money's worth somehow. Does this make me a bad person?

[Projectal]

Guy, this has been fun, and I feel kind of bad, but I'll be checking out of my own discussion topic. Im heading to Costa Rica tomorrow morning with my kids for the next couple weeks, and if there is a god, there won't be any internet.

Thanks for all the help, I really do appreciate it.

Al

[SCgarman]

3 hours ago, PigFish said:

These are construction issues my friends and one of the reasons I bag on Tabacuba all the time. The wrapper quality is meaningless when core tobacco products are removed from the products due to neglect in manufacturing. If you punish a roller for running out of ligero, guess what, he/she will roll what is left in cigars without it, rather than get in trouble!!!

Cigars do often start mild, but you should be well on your way to identifying a tunneling cigar via the taste long before you see it as ash.

It is one thing not to trust your judgment when you are a neophyte but sooner or later you will have to bite the bullet, understand some of what you have bought is just garbage passed along by a company that takes your money and does not care otherwise what they sell you... You just have to live with it... You have to understand it and not blame yourself or the vendor for it.

I bought some Punch tubes last year and having smoked through about a box, have found a lot of them trash... It is a damn shame, take my money, waste the tobacco and human capital that was used, just to ship out a substandard product.

I will be very happy the day that someone other than the Cuban government makes a cigar that I enjoy smoking. Here is to that day!

Welcome to Cuban cigars and caveat emptor...

-the Pig

We may not live long enough to see that day unfortunately! I'm in my 50's and not getting younger.

[PigFish]

4 hours ago, Projectal said:

My initial instinct seems to agree with you PigFish, but Im really hoping you're wrong. If the cigars dry out and smoke well, I'm not out a couple hundred dollars.

This being said, I'm smoking an El Principe right now that is absolutely delicious, with a razor sharp burn. It's been sitting in the same winador. Maybe a better comparison due to the size are the PSD4s that are also smoking great. Also stored in the same conditions.

As I said, I would love for you to be wrong, but that would mean that my RASS aren't acclimating as well as the rest of my cigars, which, the more I think about it, doesn't make much sense. None the less, I will keep them isolated in my Tupperware for the next half year before I smoke another one and see what happens. If it doesn't work out, I'll entertain myself by bringing a few to a future poker night, give them away, and watch the reactions whilst laughing on the inside. I've got to get my money's worth somehow. Does this make me a bad person?

Here is to what you have not yet smoked! The saving grace is that every cigar is different. Sometimes you eat the bear, sometimes he eats you! Enjoy your trip...

-Piggy

[PigFish]

2 hours ago, NYgarman said:

We may not live long enough to see that day unfortunately! I'm in my 50's and not getting younger.

Yeah mate, not holding my breath either. I still buy a box here and their, but not like I did 10 to 15 years ago. Glad I got what I got, when I got it...!

Cheers! -tP

[NSXCIGAR]

5 hours ago, Projectal said:

My initial instinct seems to agree with you PigFish, but Im really hoping you're wrong. If the cigars dry out and smoke well, I'm not out a couple hundred dollars.

This being said, I'm smoking an El Principe right now that is absolutely delicious, with a razor sharp burn. It's been sitting in the same winador. Maybe a better comparison due to the size are the PSD4s that are also smoking great. Also stored in the same conditions.

As I said, I would love for you to be wrong, but that would mean that my RASS aren't acclimating as well as the rest of my cigars, which, the more I think about it, doesn't make much sense. None the less, I will keep them isolated in my Tupperware for the next half year before I smoke another one and see what happens. If it doesn't work out, I'll entertain myself by bringing a few to a future poker night, give them away, and watch the reactions whilst laughing on the inside. I've got to get my money's worth somehow. Does this make me a bad person?

I just think RASS are a real fickle cigar and has been since 2000. Really hit or miss and mostly miss, especially for me. I've heard too many stories of RASS that just never come around no matter how long you sit on them. You're going to have much better luck with a cigar like the El Principe (as you've found) or even RASCC. I'd really avoid any cigars that are famous for needing age like the PLPC or recent Cohiba. Recent Punch Punch seem to be much more ready to go fresh and are very reliable lately, although like Piggy I did get a box of TOS NOV 15 Punch Punch tubos 10s early this year that were ho-hum. 

If you have the funds, the Connie A is about as reliable as it gets these days ans are performing very well fresh. Boli Tubos are another reliable choice fresh. 

[PigFish]

7 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

I just think RASS are a real fickle cigar and has been since 2000. Really hit or miss and mostly miss, especially for me. I've heard too many stories of RASS that just never come around no matter how long you sit on them. You're going to have much better luck with a cigar like the El Principe (as you've found) or even RASCC. I'd really avoid any cigars that are famous for needing age like the PLPC or recent Cohiba. Recent Punch Punch seem to be much more ready to go fresh and are very reliable lately, although like Piggy I did get a box of TOS NOV 15 Punch Punch tubos 10s early this year that were ho-hum. 

If you have the funds, the Connie A is about as reliable as it gets these days ans are performing very well fresh. Boli Tubos are another reliable choice fresh. 

Funny that you say 2000! It pretty much appears to me that once it came out in MRN's book as one of his favorites, or a recommended cigar (however he put it) it has been over produced and generally a lousy cigar. I tried a box again '06-'07 and I still think they are below average cigars...!

-P

[wabashcr]

Sometimes you just get a bad box of cigars.  It happens.  I have a box of RASCC I got here more than 2 years ago.  Every one I've had has been bitter, sour, harsh, and pretty much unsmokable.  They look fine, and construction seems fine.  But the tobacco was either bad to begin with, or was somehow exposed to something that made it bad.  Having a vendor inspect cigars before they ship is the only way to go, but even that isn't 100% foolproof with an organic product like cigars.  Just part of the game.  

That said, I haven't given up on that box of RASCC.  Maybe I'm naive, but I'm still holding out hope they'll turn into something decent after a few more years under good storage conditions.  Probably not, but worth a shot.

[vladdraq]

On 6/26/2017 at 11:54 AM, PigFish said:

YOU HAVE SMOKED THOUGH A FEW POORLY CONSTRUCTED CIGARS!

Cheers! -Piggy

Hey Piggy, just picked up my curiosity with this. Do you mean here chemical reasons ( missing ligero in the middle, etc) or mainly construction issues (bad draw) ?

 

[PigFish]

2 hours ago, vladdraq said:

Hey Piggy, just picked up my curiosity with this. Do you mean here chemical reasons ( missing ligero in the middle, etc) or mainly construction issues (bad draw) ?

 

So you are a roller of Cuban cigars. (We are roll playing...! Forgive the pun!) I am your boss. I give you a piles of types of tobacco and tell you what I want. Close to the end of your shift you run out of one of the stacks... Oooops!

Now know I will yell at you and threaten you when and if I find out about it. Are you going to tell me?

This means that you (may have) rolled every cigar that you made that day outside of recipe! Not that I believe in flavor profiles but lets pretend... Some of your cigars are too strong, but probably pretty good as they have more of the flavorful core tobaccos. The others are weak and insipid, depending on the aggregate of what you put in there instead... 

Now that we are done with that, a bad draw is not necessarily a construction issue. It could be a storage issue as well as a preference issue (unless the cigar is completely plugged...). Missing core tobacco products or the lack of the proper ratios as is defined by the blend is a construction problem. The cigar may smoke perfectly, but I doubt it will. If it is missing core 'high density' tobaccos it will taste foul, tunnel and not represent itself well.

I therefore broadly define 'construction issues.' Missing' the correct blend of tobacco is a construction issue... (MHO)

Cheers! -Piggy

[vladdraq]

I think you're right and i like how you think too.  Probably tunnelling is due to a volado leaf in the middle, or a really bad draw. Or of course, humidity issues!

But... not all big ring gage cigars have ligero, if what i read here and there is true.  And the way cubans are rolled, the tubing method, not sure the ligero leaf is getting always centered.

It happened to me too to have serious burning issues, even with a good draw, that's why i keep my lighter very close. 

take care!

 

 

 

[jay8354]

Hi and Welcome to the Forum,

Firstly, as have been mentioned by numerous and more knowledgeable ppl than me, you have 2 issues:

- One, you need to rest them when they arrive and make sure the humidity is correct in the storage place. At least 60 days before testing.

- Two, RASS is a love or hate it cigar. Everyone preference is different. I don't mind them, since I did smoke them as a go-to-cigar for a whole year.

As a new learner to CCs, a sample pack is the way to go. It allows you to try a large range of them, without having to invest in a whole box, not knowing if you are going to love them or not.

 

[NSXCIGAR]

9 hours ago, wabashcr said:

Sometimes you just get a bad box of cigars.  It happens.  I have a box of RASCC I got here more than 2 years ago.  Every one I've had has been bitter, sour, harsh, and pretty much unsmokable.  They look fine, and construction seems fine.  But the tobacco was either bad to begin with, or was somehow exposed to something that made it bad.  Having a vendor inspect cigars before they ship is the only way to go, but even that isn't 100% foolproof with an organic product like cigars.  Just part of the game.  

That said, I haven't given up on that box of RASCC.  Maybe I'm naive, but I'm still holding out hope they'll turn into something decent after a few more years under good storage conditions.  Probably not, but worth a shot.

Bought two boxes of RASCC around then: one ULA DIC 13 and one EML NOV 13 and both were quite possibly the worst boxes of RASCC I've ever had on the whole. Your description of bitter, sour and harsh was exactly my experience also.

 Always been a fan of RASCC and there was a long period from about 05-10 that RASCC were just about bulletproof. Quality was still there as whole from 11-12 but then 13 took a serious nosedive. As 14 and 15 stock had been fairly hard to come by and I've also been moving away from Minutos and Perlas and even Marevas in the last couple years I actually haven't sampled any post-2013, and I've been waiting for some positive reviews of 15 or 16 before taking the plunge again. Haven't really seen any.

RASS and RASCC could not be more different IMO. Had many, many great RASCC over a long period of time and pretty much never had a great RASS. 

12 hours ago, PigFish said:

Funny that you say 2000! It pretty much appears to me that once it came out in MRN's book as one of his favorites, or a recommended cigar (however he put it) it has been over produced and generally a lousy cigar. I tried a box again '06-'07 and I still think they are below average cigars...!

-P

I actually don't have any personal experience with pre-2000 RASS. Prior to 2000 I was pretty much relegated to what I could find at the local B & Ms and RA as a marca was actually poorly represented at that time aside for the cello Belvederes. RASS, PC and Coronas (which I don't think were really available anywhere much past the early-to-mid-90s) were never in stock. I believe I did see some 898 kicking around very early and they were gone before I had the chance to try any. 

I have heard good things about 90s RASS from a few close friends but I really believe they weren't as prevalent until around 2000 and on. I think these were very low production along with the Coronas and PCs. I'm not even sure when the pre-2000 RASS my friends smoked were from. Could have been early 90s. Another cigar that was virtually nonexistent at that time was Mag 46. Good luck finding any from the 90s. I think possibly some appeared in 1999 but before that, they are a very rare bird indeed.

As for the RASS, I purchased a few boxes during the golden period of 07-09 and they were not great. Same as always for me--somewhat bland and no character. And this was at a high water point for CC quality and a time when RASCC were just killer. Not the case with RASS, at least for me. It's probably the number one "just don't get it" cigar for me in the entire HSA catalog. 

[wabashcr]

8 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Bought two boxes of RASCC around then: one ULA DIC 13 and one EML NOV 13 and both were quite possibly the worst boxes of RASCC I've ever had on the whole. Your description of bitter, sour and harsh was exactly my experience also.

 Always been a fan of RASCC and there was a long period from about 05-10 that RASCC were just about bulletproof. Quality was still there as whole from 11-12 but then 13 took a serious nosedive. As 14 and 15 stock had been fairly hard to come by and I've also been moving away from Minutos and Perlas and even Marevas in the last couple years I actually haven't sampled any post-2013, and I've been waiting for some positive reviews of 15 or 16 before taking the plunge again. Haven't really seen any.

RASS and RASCC could not be more different IMO. Had many, many great RASCC over a long period of time and pretty much never had a great RASS. 

 

I don't have the box code handy, but I know they are from the latter half of 13.  I haven't really heard of anyone else having this issue, so I just assumed it was a one-off.  Sounds like they had some trouble with RASCC in that time period.  I've had a couple of examples from 15 that were much better.  Definitely not enough to make any kind of authoritative statement about their quality, but good enough that if I were in the market for minutos or perlas, I'd buy a 15 or 16 box.  They don't pop up on sales here often, which leads me to believe they're still heavily lacking in either quantity or quality (both?).

[Riverstyx]

I'm new to this whole CC thing, and don't want to mess up the large haul I brought back from Havana.  I've been smoking some of the sticks now, just to see how they taste.  Most have been good, but I had an HDM Epicure no. 2 last night that was having some serious problems (mainly, it wouldn't stay lit and lacked flavor).  I've had the HDM box in a plastic bag with Boveda 62 packs since bringing it home one week ago.  My wineador has 70 rh beads, and is finally seasoned and ready to add the sticks (both of my unadjustable xikar digital hygrometers read 66, but they're BOTH off by 4-5%!).  My question is this: WILL I RUIN MY ~200 RECENTLY PURCHASED CCs AT 70RH??  If so, which heartfelt beads should I replace them with (is the rh a couple % below what the beads are?).  I've been so afraid of drying out the cigars and ruining them.  

Most of what I read suggests the humidity is too high, but like I said they've been sitting with Boveda 62 packs.  Over the past week I've had a Partagas no. 4 that was awesome, and a Partagas Lusitania that was amazing for first 2/3rd, and the last 1/3rd was the worst tasting thing I've ever smoked.

[Hayden]

On 12/07/2017 at 9:47 AM, Riverstyx said:

I'm new to this whole CC thing, and don't want to mess up the large haul I brought back from Havana.  I've been smoking some of the sticks now, just to see how they taste.  Most have been good, but I had an HDM Epicure no. 2 last night that was having some serious problems (mainly, it wouldn't stay lit and lacked flavor).  I've had the HDM box in a plastic bag with Boveda 62 packs since bringing it home one week ago.  My wineador has 70 rh beads, and is finally seasoned and ready to add the sticks (both of my unadjustable xikar digital hygrometers read 66, but they're BOTH off by 4-5%!).  My question is this: WILL I RUIN MY ~200 RECENTLY PURCHASED CCs AT 70RH??  If so, which heartfelt beads should I replace them with (is the rh a couple % below what the beads are?).  I've been so afraid of drying out the cigars and ruining them.  

Most of what I read suggests the humidity is too high, but like I said they've been sitting with Boveda 62 packs.  Over the past week I've had a Partagas no. 4 that was awesome, and a Partagas Lusitania that was amazing for first 2/3rd, and the last 1/3rd was the worst tasting thing I've ever smoked.

In a near perfectly sealed environment like a wineador you use beads with the rh you wan't. You only use higher rh beads than you want with something like a wooden humidor that won't have as perfect of a seal. 

[Randy956]

Let them rest for at least 60 days


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[MaxG]

@Riverstyx You definitely will not ruin your cigars storing at 70% Rh. 

 

[PigFish]

53 minutes ago, MaxG said:

@Riverstyx You definitely will not ruin your cigars storing at 70% Rh. 

 

... yet, since you brought up a wine cooler humidor, it all depends on your overall settings, both rH and temperature. Now I am not going to step up and say you are going to ruin your cigars, but cigars kept a say 60 or 65F (a lot of folks are hung up on these numbers) and 70rH is going to net a very wet cigar. Furthermore, if you have less control over you humidor than you think you do, meaning that varying temperature and rH levels my push your Percent Moisture Content even further wet, you can potentially find that mold threshold...

Oh, plume... I am sorry...!

The point is, PMC is the key to fine smoking and tasting cigars. Push that envelope too far wet or dry and suffer fines!

Talking rH without a discussion of heat has got those giving advice guessing. Mold happens in poorly engineered wine cooler humidors all the time, just ask some of the people who have had problems with them.

-Piggy