Liebherr ZKes 453 temp & humidity controlled Humidor

[einzelgaenger]

I did a quick search on the model number and it did not bring up much, so I thought I'd ask: Anyone using (or know of anyone using), one of these: Liebherr ZKes 453 temp & humidity controlled Humidor?

(link: https://home.liebherr.com/en/alb/household-appliances/floor-mounted-appliances-for-households/compact-devices/humidor/humidor/details/zkes-453.html )

Concept seems sound (and in-line with @PigFish concepts [I wonder who holds the component patents...], sans the data logging capability. It would be interesting, if one were so inclined to mess with a ~$3k appliance, to hack into the controller and rig some data output capability). 

But anyways, input from anyone who has first or secondhand experience with this unit would be much appreciated. 

[Lefteris]

I have two of those.

They work very well in terms of maintaining humidity and temperature (I have a wireless Netatmo in one of them) and the build quality is very good. They are not as quiet as I would like and most people would find them overpriced.

Regards,

Lefteris 

[einzelgaenger]

32 minutes ago, Lefteris said:

I have two of those.

They work very well in terms of maintaining humidity and temperature (I have a wireless Netatmo in one of them) and the build quality is very good. They are not as quiet as I would like and most people would find them overpriced.

Regards,

Lefteris 

Thanks for the reply. It appears the unit has a lower limit of 68% RH. Do you run at that? If you attempt to push it lower does it "trip out" or just push an error code and try to work itself back up to 68%? Ideally, I'd like to use the thing for my "smoke soon" stock and run it at 60-62% RH. 

[einzelgaenger]

FYI - interesting "airflow" video using false sides/backs:

 

 

[Lefteris]

You can not set the humidity lower than 68% - it won't let you. I usually have them at 69%, depending on the type of cigars in them. It seems to maintain very consistent humidity and temperature throughout and does indeed circulate air which apparently is filtered (you are supposed to change the air filter every year or so).

Its cool and carefree but it is probably overpriced and does not fit too many cigars, especially with the shelves in place. 

I hadnt seen the video - that's pretty cool!

L.

[einzelgaenger]

Great. Thanks for the info. If I could get the thing to run at my desired RH, I'd pick up a couple. But inability to do so is a deal breaker for me. Too bad, because it is a quite attractive item and I like many of the other features. Time to start delving into environmental chambers, haha. 

[PigFish]

I found the video very interesting... Thanks for sharing that. I am amazed to find a humidor maker (other than myself) that entertains the idea that a humidor should actually work... -LOL

There are many concepts in humidor theory... and these guys have used a few! I must give them kudos.

I tirelessly test humidors. It really is the only way to know that they work. With all the animated fun stuff in the video, I have to wonder why produces never sit down with the guy that designed it and prove it works with data logs.

Granted, you can cheat with data loggers like anything else. But when one advertises that the thing works up to 89F, why can't we see just how it does??

59 minutes ago, einzelgaenger said:

Thanks for the reply. It appears the unit has a lower limit of 68% RH. Do you run at that? If you attempt to push it lower does it "trip out" or just push an error code and try to work itself back up to 68%? Ideally, I'd like to use the thing for my "smoke soon" stock and run it at 60-62% RH. 

I think I can answer that for you...

They have tested it, and likely cannot pull it off! Let me tell you mate, it 'ain't' easy!

These folks have chosen a very sound approach to keep temperature. Yet there is still the ugly specter of what happens to sealed solid surface humidors when there is free water present. They too have discovered that a sealed surface humidor requires a dehydration cycle, and they cannot likely deal with the overshoot.

Precision controlled humidor making is in three parts. Engineering and interior design. Again... kudos to these folks. They have put a lot of work into that... yet, maybe not enough! Control power and logic... This stuff costs money, and if you are already bumping the overhead on what the market will bear, you might have to skimp here. Then there is testing and dealing with overshoot. What you will accept as stable and what you won't. These folks might have made a design decision based on the desire for stability... Again, not what I want, but kudos to them!

This data log shows a series of dehydration cycles along with a couple of cooling cycles. This is a log out of the back of the humidor (one of my kits), and I have to admit that data loggers placed about the system are never exact overlays. You can move them around for better or worse results, but when you do that, you only cheat your own data collection. There is no perfect humidor... Mine are not perfect either!

What you can get is 60rH.... And what it takes is an almost endless life of the product making dehumidification cycles.

Experience tells me that these humidors love to rest near 70rH. When I shut one down, or the power goes out and I just let it sit there for several hours, they typically climb up to about 70rH and just sit there. Ultimately, given days of sitting, they will climb higher. There is free water in the system and that means that eventually physics will want to saturate the entire environment to equilibrium... When free water is present, that is 100rH!

I hope that answers some of your humidor design questions. -Piggy

[einzelgaenger]

@PigFish

Thanks for the detailed reply. I also found their little video fascinating in the realm of "cigars," as it shows that one of the real big (high end) appliance guys out there is thinking about it ... and if they are thinking about it, then hopefully the idea will start to permeate down through the more moderately priced people. 

Heretofore, I've only seen thoughtful consideration for fine temperature and humidity control in the world of laboratory research (aside from your work). Attached is a fine example. To say these units are expensive is an understatement.

I have a question (s), however: Since your medium of interest (cigars) have a relatively long hysteresis (rather than, say, a cell culture for which the attached unit is designed whose rate of change to the environment can be very, very fast [functionally instantaneous]), why do you maintain such a high sample solution and cycle rate? Going by the RH waveform inflections, I see roughly 10 minute cycle periods? (eyeballing) Is this a function of your sampling resolution or a desired performance based on a return-to-setpoint time target? Obviously bounce exists in all measureable parameters as a function of the resolution of the data and performance of the "closed" system, but why not stretch out the resolution as a function of the hysteresis of the medium? I know you mentioned in your videos that your rate of mechanical failure has been zero, so I suppose it is a moot point, but I am curious. 

LIT-HeatedHumidifiedIncubator70027003.pdf

[PigFish]

12 minutes ago, einzelgaenger said:

@PigFish

Thanks for the detailed reply. I also found their little video fascinating in the realm of "cigars," as it shows that one of the real big (high end) appliance guys out there is thinking about it ... and if they are thinking about it, then hopefully the idea will start to permeate down through the more moderately priced people. 

Heretofore, I've only seen thoughtful consideration for fine temperature and humidity control in the world of laboratory research (aside from your work). Attached is a fine example. To say these units are expensive is an understatement.

I have a question (s), however: Since your medium of interest (cigars) have a relatively long hysteresis (rather than, say, a cell culture for which the attached unit is designed whose rate of change to the environment can be very, very fast [functionally instantaneous]), why do you maintain such a high sample solution and cycle rate? Going by the RH waveform inflections, I see roughly 10 minute cycle periods? (eyeballing) Is this a function of your sampling resolution or a desired performance based on a return-to-setpoint time target? Obviously bounce exists in all measureable parameters as a function of the resolution of the data and performance of the "closed" system, but why not stretch out the resolution as a function of the hysteresis of the medium? I know you mentioned in your videos that your rate of mechanical failure has been zero, so I suppose it is a moot point, but I am curious. 

LIT-HeatedHumidifiedIncubator70027003.pdf

... these are great question!

I have some parts to make today and I was hoping to do a video review for the review request this week. As the cigar will be longer than I usually smoke, I am hoping that I have some time to devote to your thoughtful questions (as well as make my parts)...

In a nutshell, so you don't have to wait, a lot of it boils down to personal preference. Each administrator of a humidor must decide for him/herself at what point "stability" affects their smoking experience and to what ends they will venture to get what they want. I look to satisfy those that are more critical than others, as I am one such person. I have the ability to make a "better" humidor than many other people who attempt it. Why not attempt to make the best 'affordable' (non-scientific test enclosure) that one can make or own? Why not be known for making the best one (humidor or anything else) in the world?

Cheers! -Ray