Manchester Terrorists attack

[Ken Gargett]

1 minute ago, Ken Gargett said:

i know it might not be politically correct but as a part solution -

1. the perpetrator does not face the death penalty - too easy. rather, life in prison, no prospect of parole. it is spent in a solitary cell, large enough for a camp bed and bugger all else. no internet, visitors, books, tv, radio, exercise. nothing. a dim light half the day. darkness the other half. a couple of very very average meals a day. the first bleeding heart to complain about the conditions gets the cell next to him.

2. the extended family faces action as well. i don't care if they are "innocent". you can argue that they have clearly not done enough to prevent a family member taking this action or you can argue that the scumbag perpetrator has destroyed innocent families and in doing so, also then inflicted pain on his own. if he knows these actions will be taken against his own family and still commits the act, no sympathy.

the extended family (parents, children, siblings, nephews, nieces, cousins) would have all possessions immediately seized. everything. bank accounts, property, cars, toothbrushes. everything. don't care if they have been model citizens. if the grub who did this knows he will hurt his own family then it might just stop one or two.

they would then be given a week to leave the country. all of them. forever. i don't care if they had only arrived in the last few months or been there ten generations. they have lost all rights to citizenship. they would be shipped off to wherever. and if no one takes them, they are confined until somewhere is found.

yes, harsh, but tell that to the families who children were torn to shreds.

i should add that this is not to be limited to ISIS or fanatical islamists but anyone who commits an act like this, whether they claim a religious basis or not. no exceptions. i don't care if you are related to churchill - such an act gets such a response.

[Winchester21]

12 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

i know it might not be politically correct but as a part solution -

1. the perpetrator does not face the death penalty - too easy. rather, life in prison, no prospect of parole. it is spent in a solitary cell, large enough for a camp bed and bugger all else. no internet, visitors, books, tv, radio, exercise. nothing. a dim light half the day. darkness the other half. a couple of very very average meals a day. the first bleeding heart to complain about the conditions gets the cell next to him.

2. the extended family faces action as well. i don't care if they are "innocent". you can argue that they have clearly not done enough to prevent a family member taking this action or you can argue that the scumbag perpetrator has destroyed innocent families and in doing so, also then inflicted pain on his own. if he knows these actions will be taken against his own family and still commits the act, no sympathy.

the extended family (parents, children, siblings, nephews, nieces, cousins) would have all possessions immediately seized. everything. bank accounts, property, cars, toothbrushes. everything. don't care if they have been model citizens. if the grub who did this knows he will hurt his own family then it might just stop one or two.

they would then be given a week to leave the country. all of them. forever. i don't care if they had only arrived in the last few months or been there ten generations. they have lost all rights to citizenship. they would be shipped off to wherever. and if no one takes them, they are confined until somewhere is found.

yes, harsh, but tell that to the families who children were torn to shreds.

Works 4 me

[LordAnubis]

and then the good men become the villains....

[MIKA27]

39 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

i know it might not be politically correct but as a part solution -

1. the perpetrator does not face the death penalty - too easy. rather, life in prison, no prospect of parole. it is spent in a solitary cell, large enough for a camp bed and bugger all else. no internet, visitors, books, tv, radio, exercise. nothing. a dim light half the day. darkness the other half. a couple of very very average meals a day. the first bleeding heart to complain about the conditions gets the cell next to him.

Is my ex wife cooking?

[JohnS]

6 hours ago, MIKA27 said:

On another note... 

Whilst this has been an absolute tragedy that has reached every corner of the globe as far as commiserations and tributes from all over, I am surprised at how fast the UK anti terrorism and law enforcement agencies have acted and now have arrested 6 people in connection to this abhorrent act, still searching for the bomb maker and I have no doubt he/they will be caught. The father and brother of the Manchester bomber have been arrested in Libia. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Ken Gargett said:

i know it might not be politically correct but as a part solution -

2. the extended family faces action as well. i don't care if they are "innocent". you can argue that they have clearly not done enough to prevent a family member taking this action or you can argue that the scumbag perpetrator has destroyed innocent families and in doing so, also then inflicted pain on his own. if he knows these actions will be taken against his own family and still commits the act, no sympathy.

the extended family (parents, children, siblings, nephews, nieces, cousins) would have all possessions immediately seized. everything. bank accounts, property, cars, toothbrushes. everything. don't care if they have been model citizens. if the grub who did this knows he will hurt his own family then it might just stop one or two.

they would then be given a week to leave the country. all of them. forever. i don't care if they had only arrived in the last few months or been there ten generations. they have lost all rights to citizenship. they would be shipped off to wherever. and if no one takes them, they are confined until somewhere is found.

yes, harsh, but tell that to the families who children were torn to shreds.

It's no coincidence that the close relations to this fellow who carried out the bombing were apprehended, but what surprised me is that they were detained in Libya.

It hasn't been the usual method for bringing terrorists to justice in the last few years, but the fact that a Western Government has done so is extremely serious. I have no hesitation in stating that such an action can only come about as a deterrent for the next act of terror in the United Kingdom, which I have no doubt is imminent.

The same cannot be said for Russia, where ever since the Chechen Moscow Theater hostage crisis in October 2002, the detaining of close family members of terrorists is routine. Hence why there have been minimal acts of terror in Russia since. I'm not condoning such a response, merely stating what has happened. The Roman Empire and Nazis did similar to maintain control over their citizens. Did not the perpetrator who assassinated the Russian Ambassador to Turkey in December 2016 have his next of kin arrested soon after? (The answer is yes)

This is all so sad, for the victims and the innocent family members of the people who commit these crimes, there are no winners.

But what makes me sad most of all is innocent Muslims like @LordAnubis who have to face unfair discrimination and contempt for the actions of others. 

Mus is one of the most kindest Australians I know, and I hope he can continue to be proud of his beliefs and who he is. Mus, because of you I was able to share a glorious Ramon Allones Hunter & Frankau Anniversario 225 cigar with our dear friend Trevor last month. You made that split possible and I'm proud to be associated with a forum such as this one, a forum that values people like yourself so highly. I will miss you very much at Havanathon this year!

I do extend my deepest sympathies for people who lost their lives in Manchester, and for the injured and the city itself. It's a very, very difficult time for many right now in the UK.

 

[Ken Gargett]

1 hour ago, LordAnubis said:

and then the good men become the villains....

mus, i might be a little less angry in time but there seems no sensible solution to this. i'm sure something like that will not be implemented but no one seems to have a workable plan. and as i said, this is not just in relation to ISIS or any other similar fanatics but to anyone, whatever religion/or no religion at all. timothy mcveigh and his ilk included. make them know that if they hurt innocents then they are hurting their families as well. it, or something like it, might also result in more people being prepared to step up and advise authorities on what might be coming.

but tougher and tougher measures are coming. there is no way around that while these acts keep happening.

anyway, i just enjoyed a glorious partagas LE 2004 so i am feeling a little bit more kindly towards the world.

[gweilgi]

2 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

i know it might not be politically correct but as a part solution -

1. the perpetrator does not face the death penalty - too easy. rather, life in prison, no prospect of parole. it is spent in a solitary cell, large enough for a camp bed and bugger all else. no internet, visitors, books, tv, radio, exercise. nothing. a dim light half the day. darkness the other half. a couple of very very average meals a day. the first bleeding heart to complain about the conditions gets the cell next to him.

2. the extended family faces action as well. i don't care if they are "innocent". you can argue that they have clearly not done enough to prevent a family member taking this action or you can argue that the scumbag perpetrator has destroyed innocent families and in doing so, also then inflicted pain on his own. if he knows these actions will be taken against his own family and still commits the act, no sympathy.

the extended family (parents, children, siblings, nephews, nieces, cousins) would have all possessions immediately seized. everything. bank accounts, property, cars, toothbrushes. everything. don't care if they have been model citizens. if the grub who did this knows he will hurt his own family then it might just stop one or two.

they would then be given a week to leave the country. all of them. forever. i don't care if they had only arrived in the last few months or been there ten generations. they have lost all rights to citizenship. they would be shipped off to wherever. and if no one takes them, they are confined until somewhere is found.

yes, harsh, but tell that to the families who children were torn to shreds.

I know where you're coming from, and I can sympathise with your POV, but...

going after the extended family is what the Soviets did.  It is what the Nazis did.  Not just kinda and sorta, but precisely how you advocate it.  To punish or use the threat of punishment against the families of enemies is a core characteristic of state terror.   Are we a terroristic nation?  Do we sink as low as that?  Reprisals against a group for the transgressions of the individual are barbaric.  We spent a lot of time growing out of such mediaeval attitudes.  Do you really want to go back to the Old Testament, to the bad old days?

Beyond that: it doesn't work.  The Soviets tried it, and it did not work.  The Nazis tried it, and they failed.  More recently, the Israelis tried the same ... and it did not deter a single terrorist.  If anything, it hardens attitudes.  Instead of one dead "martyr", the extremists are handed prime propaganda material, free of charge.  

I would also offer a different opinion as to punishment of the individual.  Personally, I do not fancy paying tens of thousands every year for decades to warehouse convicted terrorists.  Human is as human does.  If they behave like animals, put them down like an animal.  We do not catch mad dogs and care for them until they die a natural death.  We shoot mad dogs.  No fuss.  

 

 

 

[Ken Gargett]

1 hour ago, gweilgi said:

I know where you're coming from, and I can sympathise with your POV, but...

going after the extended family is what the Soviets did.  It is what the Nazis did.  Not just kinda and sorta, but precisely how you advocate it.  To punish or use the threat of punishment against the families of enemies is a core characteristic of state terror.   Are we a terroristic nation?  Do we sink as low as that?  Reprisals against a group for the transgressions of the individual are barbaric.  We spent a lot of time growing out of such mediaeval attitudes.  Do you really want to go back to the Old Testament, to the bad old days?

Beyond that: it doesn't work.  The Soviets tried it, and it did not work.  The Nazis tried it, and they failed.  More recently, the Israelis tried the same ... and it did not deter a single terrorist.  If anything, it hardens attitudes.  Instead of one dead "martyr", the extremists are handed prime propaganda material, free of charge.  

I would also offer a different opinion as to punishment of the individual.  Personally, I do not fancy paying tens of thousands every year for decades to warehouse convicted terrorists.  Human is as human does.  If they behave like animals, put them down like an animal.  We do not catch mad dogs and care for them until they die a natural death.  We shoot mad dogs.  No fuss.  

 

 

 

you are, of course, largely right (one could argue we would be doing it for different reasons but end/means hardly helps) and it is more of a kneejerk reaction born of frustration. i really do not know what else to do.

i have no real problem with putting them down either. i just thought it would be a far longer and more miserable punishment than a quick bullet. i should have added that they are then dumped in an unmarked grave with no information given to the family. what the US did by burying bin laden at sea was a very clever thing. no site to attract worshippers etc.

[Ryan]

It was a terrible thing. Horrific.

Targeting children, it doesn't get any worse.

If any good might come of it, nothing erodes more support for a "cause" than killing children.

I can remember when the IRA killed two children in Warrington in 1993, the backlash was enormous. There were marches and protests in the UK and Ireland against the IRA, bigger then had been seen before. The IRA lost a huge amount of support from whatever groups of people had supported them previously and probably led to the beginning of the peace process in this part of the world.

Even if it means that someone might be more willing to inform about a neighbour involved in suspicious activity, that kind of thing.

It would be something.

[LordAnubis]

3 hours ago, JohnS said:

But what makes me sad most of all is innocent Muslims like @LordAnubis who have to face unfair discrimination and contempt for the actions of others.

Cheers mate. Unfortunately we live in a world where a 62 year old mum wearing hijab can go to woollies (Woolworths.. .a common supermarket in aus... like Tesco) to buy bread with her 5 and 3 year old grandchildren, and get king hit (punched in the back of the head from behind... "blindsiding" i think americans call it) by a person who yells "go home you terrorist". Nothing reported anywhere ofcourse. And ofcourse the police will "investigate" the CCTV footage in the shopping centre.

The world is not a good place right now. On any side. Sometimes i think kim jong finishing the planet off is a mercy to us all.

[99call]

1 hour ago, Ken Gargett said:

you are, of course, largely right (one could argue we would be doing it for different reasons but end/means hardly helps) and it is more of a kneejerk reaction born of frustration. i really do not know what else to do.

i have no real problem with putting them down either. i just thought it would be a far longer and more miserable punishment than a quick bullet. i should have added that they are then dumped in an unmarked grave with no information given to the family. what the US did by burying bin laden at sea was a very clever thing. no site to attract worshippers etc.

I think think the real way to understand how we've got to this point, is to realise the reason's why Wahhabism has formed, and what we can do in the West to stop it.

Now, I think we all know that Mesopotamia and the surrounding areas, was the birthplace of civilisation, and I have worked on Islamic artefacts that really communicate how advanced the Islamic world was back then. They were at the forefront of both the arts and scientific/mathematic thinking. 

I don't know enough to pin point when it happened, but currently the middle east is nearly 100% reliant on western labour and skill for that which is as complicated as a toilet flush mechanisim and up. If you combined this with a massive desire for pride and respect, you suddenly see the problem, The whole religious thing aside, they want to be part of the modern world and have their say, but they have sold their sense of pride along with their oil.

I have worked in the middle east many times, and I can honestly say the people I met were fantastic, but in looking around you realise, the skills of the west provide pretty much everything. Again nothing to do with the Islamic religion, but the Islamic culture has completely lost its way, and without us, it in the dark ages. I think its as simple as the have's and the have nots. I think we need to withdraw all support, and infrastructure, and stop watching over them like big brother. Basically say ok then, you want respect, get on your own two feet. Build the Islamic world back into one, that offers more than oil. one that you they can be proud off. 

This notion might strike fear into the West, but it cant go on, we can't go on holding them at distance and rigging the came by putting "our man' in office in their new 'fare elections'. 

I think a trade embargo and a removal of all western business workers and skill, will force the Islamic world to go "F**k Ermm I've run out of toilet paper, can you pass a new roll under the door? I regret to inform you Sir that the toilet paper is all gone...................S**T!"

[PigFish]

On 5/22/2017 at 9:54 PM, Ken Gargett said:

the act of utter scum. sometimes i really wish that there was heaven/hell etc, because i know where these grubs are headed. any wonder govts are turning more and more right wing. who can blame people wanting this wiped from the face of the earth?

best wishes to all involved for speedy recoveries and deepest commiserations to those who have lost someone.

... heaven or hell Ken? Are those tenets of religion or did you just invent the terms today? You brought 'gods' into this barrister, or don't you remember?

Kenny, I have no intention on fighting with you either. I don't really care about what you feel about God or other peoples' religions. In my purview, it is your loss.

However, here as in many threads, you stir the pot, assume that people have zero reading comprehension, take the opportunity give a backhanded slap in the face of those that believe differently from you and claim that you are an innocent bystander. So for the record mate... You brought God into this!!! My post followed yours!

Have a blessed day, your friend. -Ray

[clutch5150]

In my line of work and that includes NV training with a host of Special Operators, they all know to just shoot the terrorist in the face when the opportunity arises. It worked well for Bin Laden and continues today with so many hits you never hear about. We are winning this war on radical Islamic terrorists and will continue to weed them out. 

My heartfelt prayers out to the families and victims, I know our UK brothers and sisters in harms way will continue to knock back the radicals.

[Colt45]

hang tough Manchester

[Winchester21]

Just a thought and a question

Does this topic have a positive or negative effect on this type of forum? or does it get into the guns and religion type of category ?  

Meanwhile back at the ranch

This Cohiba siglo 1 is tasting mighty fine

[Colt45]

1 hour ago, Winchester21 said:

Just a thought and a question

Does this topic have a positive or negative effect on this type of forum?

I suppose it depends on how one views the forum. If we were all sitting around at the lounge having a few cigars, I imagine the Manchester murders might be one of the topics of conversation. I suppose that how we conduct ourselves during these conversations determines the type of impact.

 

[Ken Gargett]

5 hours ago, PigFish said:

... heaven or hell Ken? Are those tenets of religion or did you just invent the terms today? You brought 'gods' into this barrister, or don't you remember?

Kenny, I have no intention on fighting with you either. I don't really care about what you feel about God or other peoples' religions. In my purview, it is your loss.

However, here as in many threads, you stir the pot, assume that people have zero reading comprehension, take the opportunity give a backhanded slap in the face of those that believe differently from you and claim that you are an innocent bystander. So for the record mate... You brought God into this!!! My post followed yours!

Have a blessed day, your friend. -Ray

fair enough ray, i did make that mention. i would have thought most would have seen it as simply an offhand albeit clumsy way of expressing frustration with the act that should remain the focus of this thread, much like the youth of today might do when texting OMG - i really doubt that the vast majority of them are intending to invoke a discussion on the existence of gods, divinities and other fantasies, as applied to that remark (clearly, i should have been more careful) . indeed, had you not turned it into giant coloured letters, i would never have recalled making it. but i fully concede i did open the door, however inadvertently.

it is worth noting though, that you state you don't care what i feel (again, fair enough) but then tell me it is my loss and accuse me of taking backhanded slaps. pot kettle? or perhaps something about casting the first stone?

i do take strong issue with your penultimate paragraph. i stir the pot? you mean i have different opinions to yours or others and put them forward? assume people have zero reading comprehension? you can make it as personal as you like but that is a load of crap and you know it. backhanded slaps in the face of those who believe differently? again, a load of crap. there was nothing backhanded about my thoughts, even if you chose to deliberately mis-characterise them. i am and always have been more than happy to discuss gods/religion/fantasies/divinities/imaginary beings/you name it on this forum and elsewhere. it is just a smidge arrogant to assume that a different opinion to yours is automatically a backhanded slap. i am more than happy for you, in case of any confusion, to consider my follow up remarks as front and centre.

and i most certainly have never claimed to be an innocent bystander, at least not in any serious way. but i understand it might not fit the narrative. i would never claim that as i enjoy our discussions/debates far too much to ever think i could claim that and get away with it. have a great day, yourself and hopefully one day we can continue this over a couple of cigars.

 

[gweilgi]

12 hours ago, LordAnubis said:

Cheers mate. Unfortunately we live in a world where a 62 year old mum wearing hijab can go to woollies (Woolworths.. .a common supermarket in aus... like Tesco) to buy bread with her 5 and 3 year old grandchildren, and get king hit (punched in the back of the head from behind... "blindsiding" i think americans call it) by a person who yells "go home you terrorist". Nothing reported anywhere ofcourse. And ofcourse the police will "investigate" the CCTV footage in the shopping centre.

On the same day as Manchester, aerial bombing by our anti-ISIS forces killed more than a dozen refugees, including children, in a village in Syria.  That was not reported, either -- it wasn't just drowned out by the news coming out of the UK, it simply did not feature.

Our media also give a lot of airtime to shows of solidarity, as well as -- thankfully -- to politicians and pundits advising that a backlash and anti-Muslim sentiment is exactly what the terrorists want to achieve.  BUT ... the same media do not pay nearly as much attention as they should to the voices of the Muslim community leaders condemning those attack, to the muftis who preach against violence, to the ordinary community members who come together and publicly demonstrate their disgust and utter repudiation of terrorism.  They are all out there, every time, and they give clear signals that the vast majority of Muslims in our nations have no truck with extremism and that they stand by us.  They need to be heard, loud and clear.  Their message is important.  

As to the mum at Woolies, I do hope the police will come down on the perpetrator like a ton of bricks.  Some call it "King Hit", but I much prefer "Coward's Punch".  

 

12 hours ago, LordAnubis said:

The world is not a good place right now. On any side. Sometimes i think kim jong finishing the planet off is a mercy to us all.

And THAT is precisely what drives me to distraction: the world IS a far better place now than it has ever been.  More people live safer, happier, healthier, longer lives than ever before.  More people have access to food, water, healthcare and education than ever before.  In sheer terms of numbers, there have never been fewer wars or victims of wars.  In short, humanity has never had it so good since the first day we fell out of the trees.  That, too, is a message that is failing to arrive.  Our media just love stories of death and chaos ("if it bleeds, it leads"), and spare no thought as to the consequences.  We watch the news and live in fear when we should be celebrating our achievements and finding means and ways to tackle the last problem areas.