I may have aged them to death.....

[Ethernut]

23 minutes ago, cfc1016 said:

Welp. I’m getting my hands on a 30yo monte especiale no 1 soon. As much as I subscribe to the notion that 15-20 years is generally peak, I certainly hope this one still has legs?

I'm more in the 3-8 year peak crowd. If it isn't dancing in 3-5 years, it aint gonna dance.

[cfc1016]

35 minutes ago, Ethernut said:

I'm more in the 3-8 year peak crowd. If it isn't dancing in 3-5 years, it aint gonna dance.

I’m particularly interested in your opinion then. 

I started smoking habanos in 96, with ridiculously fortunate access to really high quality stock, much of it aged (as far back as the early 1980s). Those were the days when I developed my personal (*very general*) rule of thumb - first sweet spot is 3-5 years; then 10-15; after 15... ‘vinegar’ as the wineos would say. 

I slowly destroyed my palate with a religious cigarette habit amd was no longer able to appreciate the flavors. I fell out of the hobby around 2007, only smoking the occasional NC from them until last summer. 

I’m still playing a lot of catch up on what happened in my ‘lost decade’ but it’s clear there were big, paradigmatic changes. 

Has the major changes to overall production fundamentally changed the way the newer production runs age, do you think?

edit: black prince was one of my alltime faves. Is jt safe to say that I’m SOL if i ever want to enjoy one again???

Edited April 26, 2018 by cfc1016

[Ethernut]

1 minute ago, cfc1016 said:

I’m particularly interested in your opinion then. 

I started smoking habanos in 96, with ridiculously fortunate access to really high quality stock, much of it aged (as far back as the early 1980s). Those were the days when I developed my personal (*very general*) rule of thumb - first sweet spot is 3-5 years; then 10-15; after 15... ‘vinegar’ as the wineos would say. 

I slowly destroyed my palate with a religious cigarette habit amd was no longer able to appreciate the flavors. I fell out of the hobby around 2007, only smoking the occasional NC from them until last summer. 

I’m still playing a lot of catch up on what happened in my ‘lost decade’ but it’s clear there were big, paradigmatic changes. 

Has the major changes to overall production fundamentally changed the way the newer production runs age, do you think?

Awesome question and premise! Let’s have a Legendary chat over the phone. PM me, perhaps we’ll have a cigar whilst batting this one back and forth!

Very long Uber subjective story short.. year to year Cuban production quality has changed. There are “seams” of years where quality has been high and low. Of late the 2015-2017 tobacco has been some of the best out of Cuba (consistently) in a decade... I remember when folks accepted a 50% yield of decent vs stinker cigars in the mid 2000’s. Now? Last few years we’ve been crazy spoiled.

As far as what you taste vs me, that’s a very tough one! I find old cigars, stored properly tend to lean toward a “smooth” non-complex profile. If that’s what one likes, aging helps with that. A lot! In the beginning most everyone is chasing that smooth profile. As I’ve matured I find I’ve begun to shy away from that and desire that complexity that age tends to dilute.

offer is open!

[joeypots]

I smoked a 30 year old Sir Winston once. That cigar had expired. Kind of a mellow non descriptive waste. I’m like many here. Once one of my boxes hits its stride I generally smoke the whole thing in a year or two. If I want to keep a few at the end of the box for posterity I either tube them of put them in plastic bags in the humidor. I hope that’ll slow down the process while the sticks are in their prime. 

[NSXCIGAR]

3 hours ago, cfc1016 said:

Has the major changes to overall production fundamentally changed the way the newer production runs age, do you think?

The issue here is that we don't know how post-2000 cigars perform long term yet. The general opinion, including mine, is that post-2000 CCs have generally been more smokeable earlier than prior. The ammonia or "green" characteristics are virtually non-existant these days. 

Of the limited information we have, it seems that post-2000 production seems to hit a dead spot around 8-12 years. We don't yet know if these cigars will recover coming up on 16-20 years now.

MRN talks about the second vacuum period being in that 18-22 year window. And we know that many pre-2000 cigars have gone strong for 25+ years. Many Cohibas from the early 80s, Dunhill Estupendos and Cabinettas, the 1492, Cubatabaco 25th and 1994 are right now just smoking the house down. So we know pre-2000 CCs can have serious legs. We don't know about post-2000 CCs yet. 

As I mentioned, we do know that post-2000 cigars lack the youth issues that pre-2000 CCs did, and that tobacco processing techniques were altered around 2000. But we just don't know what effect this will have--if any--on post-2000 CCs long-term. 

 

[Puros Y Vino]

I've got cigars going back to the late 1920's that smoke great.  And while I believe that over-aging is possible, I haven't experienced it all that much. Of the vintage cigars I've smoked,the only ones I would proclaim to be "dead" are a 1985 Davidoff Dom Perignon and a 1980 Davidoff Chateau Lafite.  I only started smoking cigars in 2009, so I have not had the experience of smoking my vintage stock when fresh for comparison then to now. But it has become clear to my palate what has life in it and what doesn't.  My personal post 2009 stock has yielded a few interesting results.  For instance MAG50's from 2009, smoked great fresh.  I've sampled from my two cabs quite frequently.  Oddly enough, my last handful over the past year or so have tasted bolder/stronger.  2009 RACF's have shown a steady decline in "power", though the complexity of the cigar may have seen an upswing due to the dissipation of that strong, nicotine buzz associated with these upon release.  2011 La Escepcion Selectos Finos share the same progression.  Overall, I think storage plays a huge role.  Those among us either Saran wrapping or Ziploc bagging boxes may delay the "over-aging" effect vs those who don't.  But then again, there are so many factors.  Box codes, wrapper hues, tobacco vintage, etc. 

[clutch5150]

Darn, what is going to happen when I finally smoke that 1957 Monte #2 or the 56 Dunhill Cuban I have?  Sure hope it ain't tasteless.

[WABOOM]

Tomorrow morning... smoke one of them. Why not?

[cfc1016]

3 hours ago, bundwallah said:

I've got cigars going back to the late 1920's that smoke great.  And while I believe that over-aging is possible, I haven't experienced it all that much. Of the vintage cigars I've smoked,the only ones I would proclaim to be "dead" are a 1985 Davidoff Dom Perignon and a 1980 Davidoff Chateau Lafite.  I only started smoking cigars in 2009, so I have not had the experience of smoking my vintage stock when fresh for comparison then to now. But it has become clear to my palate what has life in it and what doesn't.  My personal post 2009 stock has yielded a few interesting results.  For instance MAG50's from 2009, smoked great fresh.  I've sampled from my two cabs quite frequently.  Oddly enough, my last handful over the past year or so have tasted bolder/stronger.  2009 RACF's have shown a steady decline in "power", though the complexity of the cigar may have seen an upswing due to the dissipation of that strong, nicotine buzz associated with these upon release.  2011 La Escepcion Selectos Finos share the same progression.  Overall, I think storage plays a huge role.  Those among us either Saran wrapping or Ziploc bagging boxes may delay the "over-aging" effect vs those who don't.  But then again, there are so many factors.  Box codes, wrapper hues, tobacco vintage, etc. 

I seem to recall smoking a few 1984 dom perignons in 1999. They definitely weren’t full-bodied, but were cream bombs. Lots going on at that 15 year mark. 

[Fugu]

On 27.4.2018 at 3:06 AM, NSXCIGAR said:

The issue here is that we don't know how post-2000 cigars perform long term yet. The general opinion, including mine, is that post-2000 CCs have generally been more smokeable earlier than prior. The ammonia or "green" characteristics are virtually non-existant these days.

 

On 27.4.2018 at 5:35 PM, bundwallah said:

I've got cigars going back to the late 1920's that smoke great.  And while I believe that over-aging is possible, I haven't experienced it all that much. Of the vintage cigars I've smoked,the only ones I would proclaim to be "dead" are a 1985 Davidoff Dom Perignon and a 1980 Davidoff Chateau Lafite.  I only started smoking cigars in 2009, so I have not had the experience of smoking my vintage stock when fresh for comparison then to now. But it has become clear to my palate what has life in it and what doesn't.  My personal post 2009 stock has yielded a few interesting results.  For instance MAG50's from 2009, smoked great fresh.  I've sampled from my two cabs quite frequently.  Oddly enough, my last handful over the past year or so have tasted bolder/stronger.  2009 RACF's have shown a steady decline in "power", though the complexity of the cigar may have seen an upswing due to the dissipation of that strong, nicotine buzz associated with these upon release.  2011 La Escepcion Selectos Finos share the same progression.  Overall, I think storage plays a huge role.  Those among us either Saran wrapping or Ziploc bagging boxes may delay the "over-aging" effect vs those who don't.  But then again, there are so many factors.  Box codes, wrapper hues, tobacco vintage, etc. 

Concur. And there certainly is more complexity and detail to the topic than the simple claim that current tobacco were approachable earlier so cigars won't age that well...

 

On 27.4.2018 at 3:06 AM, NSXCIGAR said:

Of the limited information we have, it seems that post-2000 production seems to hit a dead spot around 8-12 years. We don't yet know if these cigars will recover coming up on 16-20 years now.

As I mentioned, we do know that post-2000 cigars lack the youth issues that pre-2000 CCs did, and that tobacco processing techniques were altered around 2000. But we just don't know what effect this will have--if any--on post-2000 CCs long-term.

Sure, over-aging is possible, and certain tobacco just isn't meant for the long run. But in my experience, and as has been mentioned, this over-aging, i.e. a cigar going flat, has a lot to do with the particular storage conditions. Then, there comes into play the particular vintage of course, i.e. those harvests that went into a cigar and its respective blending. In my humble opinion this is a way larger determinant of a cigar's longevity than it is the major switching of tobacco strains following 1997.

Why do I believe that? Well, there are some sound examples of cigars aging pretty well and even not having lost a bit of their oomph from production following after 1998. Those vintages are now steadily nearing the two-decades mark, and I think this is a temporal stretch already that should yet allow us to draw some first conclusions. To mention just a few - others may perhaps evaluate it differently - but among those that are still going strong today are: 1998 Punch Coronas, 1999 Punch DC, 1998 SdC3, 1998/2002 MdO2, 2000 Upmann Lonsdales, 2001 MdO1, 2001 Party SS1, 2002 Party SC1, 2003 LE Party SD2, 2003 desD, 2003 RyJ TPC, 2003 Swinnie (ok, only 15 years in by now, but those still got long legs if you ask me). And even rather "simple" cigars such as 2005 ERDM Lunch Club are doing pretty well today. Finally - though not holding them myself - there seem to be people on this board who are particularly fond of El Morro of 2001... haha (cheers @JayHabanos ). And, if you trust MRN, then the 2000/01 SLR DC seems also to be found among such potent cigars. If you ask me, there hasn't been that certain single "switch" at some point in time. Instead, Cuban production is a constant flow of - citing JohnS from a neighbouring thread - the good, the bad and the ugly. But also at times, the potentially great down the road.

In my opinion, a cigar proving to vividly survive the 15-20 year mark will potentially do so also much longer. It's then finally a matter of proper storage.

[RijkdeGooier]

@Fugu I concur and would add

Tainos 2001

HdM DC 98

HdM Churchill 98

Monte 2 98

Lusi 2003

[dowjr1]

I had a box of Liga Privada No 9s that I waited too long to smoke and they went blah.  I still kick myself...

[Duxnutz]

I’ve also found some of my once biblical Punch have come to be on the way down. My last Punch Super Selection #2 was pretty ordinary and even the #1’s seem to be retreating. I’ll have a go of the Black Prince but these may still be in Australia. Contrarily, The Monarcas in the tube are going strong and are an amazing smoke. 

I had a Partagas SdC no. 2 a couple days ago that previous ones were quite tight. Amazingly nice cigar and full of flavour. My other wins in the Partagas camp are Partagas de Partagas No.1 (1999s) that are about the best smoking cigars I own. Lonsdales by comparison are like cardboard but that may more be to do with the previous retailer (not you Prez) that had questionable storage methods. 

My old reliables are any older ERDM, LGC, QDO, HDM Churchill’s, Sancho Panza CGs and of course Cohiba. May need to get cracking on my remaining brown band Cohiba’s as I would truly cry if they turned to crap.  

[alloy]

The box of 01 SLR lonsdales that I received from El Presidente ( In the Carol St. Martin raffle) I received the last week in April have been sitting in my wineador. I said WTH and took one out to smoke. It was tight, so I perfecdrawed it and man, what a great stick! 1.5 hours and I was left with stone fruit and citrus on my tongue, A 17 year old smoke was just simply unbelievably great. I thank you Rob for these are smoking just great. Especially a 2001.

[Ethernut]

Re-awakening this thread for the benefit of newer members. Huge hat-tip to Rob for creating it so long ago. Damn honest bloke that @El Presidente. I must say I've experienced the over-aging quite a bit during the lockdowns after reaching far back into my humi for some legendary white elephant cigar I was saving like a 40 year old virgin. I always think of this thread and smile, then raise a mental glass to Rob and this thread while my brain disappointingly says... "Whoomp There It Is!"

Smoke'em in their prime good Gents! Carpe Diem!