Over aging is there such a thing??

[joeypots]

2 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Outside of the Davidoff Mille series, I don't recall MRN stating any other cigars have "expired". Can you tell me where else he notes this?

Nope, I no longer own a copy of the book. 

[Dimmers]

It will be very very interesting to see how recent smokes fare in 5-10-15+ years time...

[UpInSmoak]

I'm optimistic that recent production will age well.  But as said before it is anyone's guess.  I smoked a 2011 RASS last week.   Last one from a 25ct box and for the most part been stored in my everyday humidor so consistently exposed to fresh air.  Damn thing had me green and ended my night early.......had not lost a bit of strength IMO.  

[Ethernut]

@Canoli the answer is a simple one (fortunately).. ..and it is... Absofrigginlutley. It is possible that certain flavors degrade and others may emerge. As far as the physical tobacco, as long as it's kept in the right conditions it will hold up fine. It's the flavor that they were purchased for that _will_ change. You can bet on it -

See my Noob Thread in my signature where I cover that very thing in detail. It'll make it make much more sense -

 

Cheers!

[mygar]

Its also possible to set aside a bunch of boxes ... and 5 to 7 yrs later find that their profile does not fit your taste preferences anymore... im sure others have had this experience as well

[polarbear]

Hunt down some Drew Estate Liga Privada #9s that are more than 5 years old and you'll know that cigars can "age out"
I've got some OR Liga 9's that are just for display purposes now
At best you're left with but a hint of the greatness they once had, at worst, they taste like newspaper

In relation to your question, if I was going to hunt down some boxes to lay down for my (currently non existent) children's 18th birthday, I'd be looking at the Cohiba Linea Classica line. Think Esplindidos, Lanceros or Robustos. I smoked a early 2000 CoLa a little while back and it still had plenty of legs like wise the many 10+ year old CoRos I've had over the years.
Partigas 898s or Lusis may also be a good option. Cant know for sure due to the oldest post 2000 Lusi I've smoked only had 7 years on it
Avoid LEs at all costs. While I'm sure people will disagree with me when it comes to certain releases, I'd be hesitant to lay a box of LEs down for anything longer than 7-10 years for the most part

A polite email to Rob asking him to pick you a nice box for you is a good idea. Just be sure to ask nicely

[99call]

On 4/5/2017 at 6:24 AM, Canoli said:

makes sense. the reason i ask is I have 2 young sons one 3.5 yrs and the other 5 days old and i wanted to get them a box each of cigars stamped on their birth month/year and hold them until they are old enough to enjoy them with me so 18-20+ years not sure if that is something that was doable or not.

-Canoli

If it were me, I would invest in a very good box of tubos. Having tasted a lot of aged stuff including stuff from the 70's and 80's it's pretty evident that when considering hit and miss ratio's, you get a lot more success out of tubos. Also when considering the cost to you in baby sitting them for 20yrs or so, if you bought non-tubos, it would probably double your costs

[Dave001]

in my experience I will say no 90% of my stock is over 10 years old and every box I own just gets more amazing as the years pass, my oldest boxes are from the late 70s and to me they are just amazing some will enjoy stronger cigars so then they will probably not enjoy vintage as much for me personally I love the mellowed out flavors that develop over the years. I have many boxes from the 2003-2008 period and ive had no problems at all in fact my box of bolivar tubos no 2 from 2007 and a box of PC's from 2005 and they are still strong!!! same with a few partagas so I like that the stronger brands have ways to go and even the milder brands ( Gloria, qdo as an example) I tend to enjoy at the 15 year level +

[cigcars]

       Well, considering that some cigar museums like Gotham, and auction marts like Christie's have Cuban offerings from the 1930's it's hard to say if there is an "over aging" point.  I have heard some smokers of cigars really old like that who've said that the flavor was practically nil, but then I've also read reviews of some Havana smokes from even older than that which were observed at "great", "wonderful", etc. And I presume these smokes were kept in their proper temperature and storage conditions. Polar Bear spoke of one of Drew Estate's offerings for aging, but I truly don't look at Non-Habanos as really worth the effort IMHO, and sorry if I'm offending anybody's preferred tastes. I have had some Non-CC's in my humi that I didn't enjoy, and have had some observers say, "Well, just leave 'em in there long enough and they'll be on par with your best Habanas!" Ooooo-kaaaaay... 

[99call]

12 hours ago, cigcars said:

       Well, considering that some cigar museums like Gotham, and auction marts like Christie's have Cuban offerings from the 1930's it's hard to say if there is an "over aging" point.  I have heard some smokers of cigars really old like that who've said that the flavor was practically nil, but then I've also read reviews of some Havana smokes from even older than that which were observed at "great", "wonderful", etc. And I presume these smokes were kept in their proper temperature and storage conditions. Polar Bear spoke of one of Drew Estate's offerings for aging, but I truly don't look at Non-Habanos as really worth the effort IMHO, and sorry if I'm offending anybody's preferred tastes. I have had some Non-CC's in my humi that I didn't enjoy, and have had some observers say, "Well, just leave 'em in there long enough and they'll be on par with your best Habanas!" Ooooo-kaaaaay... 

I think if you've got someone saying a 1930's cigar has not suffered from ageing, they're guilty of simply being excited by the opportunity, and are mentally giving the cigar 'a pass' because psychologically they simply want it to be good, therefore it is.

I'm not suggesting cigars from the 1930's wont be enjoyable, but in line with the thread topic, will they be better than when they were 4yrs old? I very much doubt it.   I think someone like Alex Wong he's fantastic for this, He has stock that others cant even dream of, but if you look at his instagram, his comments on heavily aged stock, are always pretty honest.  i.e if something still shows something pleasant after 100yrs in a box, then he's happily suprised, as opposed to expecting them to be great. 

It will be very interesting to revisit heavily aged stock in another 50yrs as people in general are caring for stock in a much more informed manner, and I think the state of preservation will be far superior. 

 

[ErikB]

Comments about well-aged or expired cigars might also be influenced by the wish to attach greater value to one's stock , or lesser value to others'


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[NSXCIGAR]

23 hours ago, 99call said:

I think if you've got someone saying a 1930's cigar has not suffered from ageing, they're guilty of simply being excited by the opportunity, and are mentally giving the cigar 'a pass' because psychologically they simply want it to be good, therefore it is.

I'm not suggesting cigars from the 1930's wont be enjoyable, but in line with the thread topic, will they be better than when they were 4yrs old? I very much doubt it.   I think someone like Alex Wong he's fantastic for this, He has stock that others cant even dream of, but if you look at his instagram, his comments on heavily aged stock, are always pretty honest.  i.e if something still shows something pleasant after 100yrs in a box, then he's happily suprised, as opposed to expecting them to be great. 

It will be very interesting to revisit heavily aged stock in another 50yrs as people in general are caring for stock in a much more informed manner, and I think the state of preservation will be far superior. 

There have been plenty of positive results from cigars with 50+ years of age. The Don Candidos and Don Alfredos were consistently getting rave reviews in the 90s and into the 2000s when many of these cigars were well over 50 years old and some 60 or 70. Full disclosure, however--the one Don Alfredo ( a No. 52 Piramide) I've had from the 1960s was not very good, but provenance and storage conditions, particularly in the 5 years prior to my smoking it were questionable.

I also recall a recent article that I can't seem to find where a reputable person in the cigar universe smoked a 1950s BCG with very positive results. Someone else reputable that I'm aware of that smokes a lot of very expensive vintage CCs finds RA Coronas from the 1950s to be 100-point cigars. That would be a 60+ year old cigar that is, in his opinion, finer than anything made today. Much of the vintage cigars he smokes he rates much lower.

IMO, I really don't think 70 years is much different than 40-50 years. If a cigar holds up for that long, it could hold up virtually forever under ideal storage conditions. Clearly, if a cigar is still performing at a high level after 55 years (and they do) I doubt another 20 or 30 is going to hurt it much.

[99call]

2 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

There have been plenty of positive results from cigars with 50+ years of age. The Don Candidos and Don Alfredos were consistently getting rave reviews in the 90s and into the 2000s when many of these cigars were well over 50 years old and some 60 or 70. Full disclosure, however--the one Don Alfredo ( a No. 52 Piramide) I've had from the 1960s was not very good, but provenance and storage conditions, particularly in the 5 years prior to my smoking it were questionable.

I also recall a recent article that I can't seem to find where a reputable person in the cigar universe smoked a 1950s BCG with very positive results. Someone else reputable that I'm aware of that smokes a lot of very expensive vintage CCs finds RA Coronas from the 1950s to be 100-point cigars. That would be a 60+ year old cigar that is, in his opinion, finer than anything made today. Much of the vintage cigars he smokes he rates much lower.

IMO, I really don't think 70 years is much different than 40-50 years. If a cigar holds up for that long, it could hold up virtually forever under ideal storage conditions. Clearly, if a cigar is still performing at a high level after 55 years (and they do) I doubt another 20 or 30 is going to hurt it much.

I'm in agreement with you on most points in here. however all the positive factors we associate with the well preserved ageing of a 15yr old cigar, that process of 'off gasing' as we refer to in, in my trade as a fine arts conservator, doesn't stop regardless of whatever the quality of conditions you store them in.

All I'm saying is that, if you have charted a massive discernible difference between a cigar that was strong and overpowering, to one that is mellow and sweet in a 40 year time frame, I think to suggest nothing else happens in the following 30yrs is slightly confusing. 

What I was getting at is, what measure can we put on the placebo effect of tasting something that is massively rare and special. Is it quite simply expectation versus reality. 

It's only my opinion, but i would classify age groups of cigars i've smoked in four different brackets

1, Fresh,  A pleasurable but slightly confused array of flavours in a level of power that is over and above the blenders intention for smoking at optimum enjoyment

2, Mature,  I realisation of what to cigar was meant to be from the blenders perspective, and a cohesive and well balanced profile of flavour and body

3. Aged/vintage,     I mellowed version of the blenders intension that, may or may not have improved aspects such as floral or sweeter notes, and a lower body

4, Collectors item,   I cigar that may still have a bag of tricks to display, but has more likely than not, mellowed to the point that all it has to display is a very clean tobacco taste, where you can get a faint picture of the class it used to possess.

Again it's just my opinion, if people do have boxes from the 1930's and are thinking of cracking them open, I've got my fingers crossed for you, and hope you unearth a monster!   

[Philc2001]

Personally, I've had Cuban cigars from the 60s, bought at auction, and they made me green. Cigars made in that era were quite different, the tobacco strains and blends were much bolder and stronger. I'm not surprised they were still harsh 50 years later.

Cigars made in the last 10-20 years may not have the elemental body to keep for as long. But we won't know for certain until we get to that stage. Who knows, maybe at some point in aging a cigar begins to get bolder rather than fading.


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[jwr0201]

Get each a really nice 10 box of something like Lusitanias and put away.  Then do same at their  10th b'day,  that way, they have a potential box and an awesome box!    Great idea, btw!