Cuban Maduros

[rhcolbert]

Really want to drill down on the price to quality ratio here.  Easily can find reviews, but want to drill in on just the math.

Before Cubans, I almost exclusively smoked maduros.  Pardons, LGC (non-Cuban), couple others were mainstays for me.

When the cohiba came out I was beyond excited, but saw the prices and just walked away.  No way could I imagine it being worth that much.

the Wednesday 24:24 gor me thininking about it more.  Bigger fan of partigas over cohiba, but even at the clearance price it's still way too much for me.  I really feel like this is extortion from Cuba. While a Maduro should cost more due to the time and labor involved in the wrapper, the jump  just seems to steep.

Am I wrong? Are they really 2X+ better than a similar marca/vitola? Why such a jump when it's minimal price jump to get a maduro of the same vitola in a non-Cuban? 

[Jimmy_jack]

If you are really wanting to know...you simply have to try it. No one can tell you if you will enjoy them. Go to the regular website and put together some singles for over $100 to get the shipping covered. I like the Cohiba maduros..I think they are worth it. Not an everyday smoke though .

[busdriver]

I am a fan.  Def worth trying.  The cohibas are great.  The secretos are in my rotation.  I have only smoked one of the Partagas but a box is now on my wish list.  Yeah they are spendy which is prob why I just havent bought a box.  

[Jimmy_jack]

FWIW...my box of Cohiba Secretos may be the best smelling box I have ever opened. I mean just knock you over goodness. Hard to explain. They smoke great too.

[Jimmy_jack]

1 minute ago, SenorPerfecto said:

I tried a Party maduro in Havana. It was good. Not great.

I have one resting that inneed to try. I've heard the same.

 

my Secretos.

[gusto616]

I will be interested to hear about the Genios just offered at the 24:24


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[gusto616]

I will be interested to hear about the Genios just offered at the 24:24


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[rhcolbert]

Agreed they all look stellar and get rave reviews, but fakkkk that PRICE for em.  

Issue with sampler is I know I can spend A lil more than $100 and get a whole box of something really delecious. But I'll prob just have to do it to put the issue to bed 

[Mattb82]

Definitely the sweeter chocolate side. I think they need a few years even though they are the "maduro five" with the cohiba. Doesn't taste like a cohiba at all to me in any way 

[messa]

If you are really wanting to know...you simply have to try it. No one can tell you if you will enjoy them. Go to the regular website and put together some singles for over $100 to get the shipping covered. I like the Cohiba maduros..I think they are worth it. Not an everyday smoke though .

Love the Genios and Secretos. Worth the price to me.

I have a box of Partagas resting and hoping to have a similar experience.

I agree with the others: Buy some singles/sampler and try.

[NSXCIGAR]

20 hours ago, rhcolbert said:

Am I wrong? Are they really 2X+ better than a similar marca/vitola? Why such a jump when it's minimal price jump to get a maduro of the same vitola in a non-Cuban? 

The Cuban maduro wrapper is deemed so based on leaf selection and the special processing it undergoes unlike many NC cigars that claim a maduro wrapper based solely on color. I have actually seen some Cuban LEs with darker wrappers than some of the Partagas Maduro No 1s. I will say the Cohiba Maduro 5 has pretty dark wrappers though--often bordering on oscuro. 

Cuban maduro wrappers are very different from most NC maduro wrappers. Sure, all tobacco in a Padron 1926 is aged for 5 years including the wrapper. But a Cuban maduro wrapper is selected from a shade-grown plant's upper tapado section and undergoes an additional fermentation--not the single fermentation at higher temperatures which is common with NC maduro wrappers. In the case of the Cohiba Maduro 5 line, the additionally fermented upper tapado wrapper leaf is then aged for 5 years prior to rolling. 

So, the Cuban maduro price premium comes from the fact that their two maduro lines use tobacco leaf that is more scarce (upper tapado) and that it undergoes an additional fermentation, and in the case of the CM5, 5 years of aging. NC maduro wrappers typically have none of these characteristics and are classified "maduro" based on color alone which is generally achieved by a single fermentation at higher temperatures and often uses sun-grown leaf.

I'll also add that I am in no way suggesting that a Cuban maduro wrapper is superior or worth the price premium--just that this is the basis for the price premium. I will say that of the limited number of Cohiba Maduro 5s I've sampled over the years, I've been generally impressed, FWIW. Worth the premium, I'm not sure. But they seem to be a very good product.

[rhcolbert]

1 hour ago, NSXCIGAR said:

The Cuban maduro wrapper is deemed so based on leaf selection and the special processing it undergoes unlike many NC cigars that claim a maduro wrapper based solely on color. I have actually seen some Cuban LEs with darker wrappers than some of the Partagas Maduro No 1s. I will say the Cohiba Maduro 5 has pretty dark wrappers though--often bordering on oscuro. 

Cuban maduro wrappers are very different from most NC maduro wrappers. Sure, all tobacco in a Padron 1926 is aged for 5 years including the wrapper. But a Cuban maduro wrapper is selected from a shade-grown plant's upper tapado section and undergoes an additional fermentation--not the single fermentation at higher temperatures which is common with NC maduro wrappers. In the case of the Cohiba Maduro 5 line, the additionally fermented upper tapado wrapper leaf is then aged for 5 years prior to rolling. 

So, the Cuban maduro price premium comes from the fact that their two maduro lines use tobacco leaf that is more scarce (upper tapado) and that it undergoes an additional fermentation, and in the case of the CM5, 5 years of aging. NC maduro wrappers typically have none of these characteristics and are classified "maduro" based on color alone which is generally achieved by a single fermentation at higher temperatures and often uses sun-grown leaf.

I'll also add that I am in no way suggesting that a Cuban maduro wrapper is superior or worth the price premium--just that this is the basis for the price premium. I will say that of the limited number of Cohiba Maduro 5s I've sampled over the years, I've been generally impressed, FWIW. Worth the premium, I'm not sure. But they seem to be a very good product.

Spot on details. Thanks!

true, most NC maduros are a b.s. Sham.  They use super high heat in the process and ruin 'em. Just "dark" ain't no maduro. 

Sadly, it's why I had limited brands I would purchase maduros from

[BMWBen]

hmm is the high heat fermentation why so many NC maduros have an almost "crunchy" wrapper? Specifically Liga Privadas?

[Westside Threat]

Interesting.  So what NC's make "true" maduros?

[NSXCIGAR]

54 minutes ago, Westside Threat said:

Interesting.  So what NC's make "true" maduros?

Maduro is a subjective classification and there is no "true" maduro. Cuba has officially stated their criteria which is shade-grown upper tapado and additional fermentation. Without a stated criteria, it's safe to assume the most inexpensive and efficient method to produce maduro wrapper is used which is a single fermentation at higher heat. 

1 hour ago, BMWBen said:

hmm is the high heat fermentation why so many NC maduros have an almost "crunchy" wrapper? Specifically Liga Privadas?

Possibly, but many NC maduro wrappers are sun-grown as opposed to shade-grown which may affect the wrapper's appearance, thickness and brittleness. 

[Fugu]

"True" maduro in the making....

(courtesy of RobustoJoe)

[Guest Nekhyludov]

22 minutes ago, Fugu said:

"True" maduro in the making....

(courtesy of RobustoJoe)

Ugh, that's revolting. What factory is that? I would very much like to avoid everything they've touched. 

[Jimmy_jack]

1 hour ago, Fugu said:

"True" maduro in the making....

(courtesy of RobustoJoe)

I don't know the factory. However, it seems that every time I see Liga Privada being made, the roller and bun her have wet dark hands.

[rhcolbert]

 

4 hours ago, Westside Threat said:

Interesting.  So what NC's make "true" maduros?

Been out of the NC game a while but always loved the Pasron 64 series maduro.  

Given their rep, I would venture to bet fuente isn't pulling a ruse, but they sure do pump out a good bit of em

[NSXCIGAR]

Amazing they're not even wearing gloves...ugh.

Dyeing of wrapper leaf has somewhat gone out of fashion for premium/semi premium NC cigars. I'm sure it still occurs, but the practice has pretty much disappeared from the landscape. 

2 hours ago, rhcolbert said:

Given their rep, I would venture to bet fuente isn't pulling a ruse, but they sure do pump out a good bit of em

It's hard to find any information about the processing of most NC cigars. However, as I mentioned earlier, without any stated criteria for a maduro wrapper it's possible even a reputable house like Fuente uses alternative methods. It's even acceptable to just simply select ultra-dark wrapper leaf and call it maduro. Sun-grown tends to be darker anyway, and the darkest natural shades of that wrapper can be pretty dark. 

Good, comprehensive CA article from 2004 about maduros in general, and the acknowledgement that maduro has gone from it's original meaning of "mature" (essentially tapado leaf) to simply "dark color":

http://www.cigaraficionado.com/webfeatures/show/id/That-Old-Black-Magic_8470

 

[GrouchoMarx]

7 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Good, comprehensive CA article from 2004 about maduros in general, and the acknowledgement that maduro has gone from it's original meaning of "mature" (essentially tapado leaf) to simply "dark color":

http://www.cigaraficionado.com/webfeatures/show/id/That-Old-Black-Magic_8470

 

From that article "The Cuban cigar industry, while it does release very dark cigars, no longer sells any as maduros. "

So, this makes me wonder where I got my "cohiba maduro genios" and "secretos" from? I also noted that very little was said about the Cubans on the article. Leads me to believe that CA is primarily addressing the NC market?

Of course, I managed to lay my sticky hands on some genios and secretos - one of each I smoked ROTT. YUM.

 

 

[Fugu]

31 minutes ago, GrouchoMarx said:

From that article "The Cuban cigar industry, while it does release very dark cigars, no longer sells any as maduros. "

So, this makes me wonder where I got my "cohiba maduro genios" and "secretos" from?

Article from 2004! When "maduro" in Cuba had only been used for qualifying a wrapper shade, not the process.

[GrouchoMarx]

1 hour ago, Fugu said:

Article from 2004! When "maduro" in Cuba had only been used for qualifying a wrapper shade, not the process.

AHH..... didn't know that - thanks!   I was under the impression that "maduro" stick in cuba meant a 5 year old wrapper, and 3 year old binder?

[NSXCIGAR]

27 minutes ago, GrouchoMarx said:

AHH..... didn't know that - thanks!   I was under the impression that "maduro" stick in cuba meant a 5 year old wrapper, and 3 year old binder?

I'm not aware of any statement regarding minimum age for a Cuban maduro leaf or cigar, only that it undergoes an additional fermentation and that it is upper tapado leaf. The Cohiba Maduro 5 happens to feature upper tapado, additionally fermented with 5 years of age, but the 5 years of age is simply an additional feature to the CM5 and not necessary for the maduro classification.

The LEs are frequently misunderstood to have maduro wrappers when in reality they are simply various levels of tapado leaf that before 2000 were considered unsuitable for export quality and given 2 years of age. As they are tapado they can be very dark, however they are not fermented more than once as the PM1 and CM5 wrappers are and are therefore not maduro as HSA classifies it, although as I've noted I've seen LEs over the years with darker wrappers than the PM1s.

[GrouchoMarx]

This is great - thanks for all the info!

(now if I can just fit all this stuff into my tiny brain.....)