Life Insurance

[JMacSr]

Because trying to explain to a non smoker the difference between smoking cigars and cigarettes is like trying to teach algebra to my dog! I need to purchase life insurance and was wondering if you guys know how long I should abstain from the leaf in order for the nicotine to get out of me so I can get rated as a non smoker? I average 5-7 cigars a week. Thanks

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[FrankJerseyCigars]

I don't really want to give advice on the specific question ask, and don't hate for me what I'm about to say... Be careful doing stuff like that. If your plan is to not smoke, get a life insurance policy, and then smoke you're setting yourself up for disaster. Lets face it, the most likely reason a cigar smoker will die is from some kind of smoke related cause (not always, don't want to get into the health risks of smoking since I too smoke cigars ). Which means if you do end up like that, when it comes time for your family to collect the insurance, you will either end up with a substantially reduced policy benefit, or depending on your state they could consider it material misrepresentation and outright deny the claim. Basically you're not protecting your loved ones from the biggest risk you will face. 

[Shrody234]

I was told (by an insurance agent) not to smoke for a week. It worked with no issues. 

[JR Kipling]

I don't really want to give advice on the specific question ask, and don't hate for me what I'm about to say... Be careful doing stuff like that. If your plan is to not smoke, get a life insurance policy, and then smoke you're setting yourself up for disaster. Lets face it, the most likely reason a cigar smoker will die is from some kind of smoke related cause (not always, don't want to get into the health risks of smoking since I too smoke cigars ). Which means if you do end up like that, when it comes time for your family to collect the insurance, you will either end up with a substantially reduced policy benefit, or depending on your state they could consider it material misrepresentation and outright deny the claim. Basically you're not protecting your loved ones from the biggest risk you will face. 

I have no advice for the OP.

But many people make statements based on absolutely nothing, even cigar smokers. Where do they come up with such notions? Cigar & pipe smoking isn't the same as cigarette smoking. None of that may make any difference when it comes to insurance, - that's all about money. But, please don't repeat what you heard or read somewhere. Eventually, something will get every one of us. Its highly unlikely that it'll be cigar smoking.

(Note how in the following report, they attempt doubletalk & contradict the actual results of the study.)

http://www.rstreet.org/op-ed/fda-study-cancer-risks-nearly-nil-for-1-2-cigars-per-day/

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[FrankJerseyCigars]

1 minute ago, JR Kipling said:

 

I have no advice for the OP.

But many people make statements based on absolutely nothing, even cigar smokers. Where do they come up with such notions? Cigar & pipe smoking isn't the same as cigarette smoking. None of that may make any difference when it comes to insurance, - that's all about money. But, please don't repeat what you heard or read somewhere. (Note how in the following report, how doubletalk is used to contradict the actual results of the study.)

http://www.rstreet.org/op-ed/fda-study-cancer-risks-nearly-nil-for-1-2-cigars-per-day/




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I said I didn't want to get into the health risk topic, but I'll address it. I in no way shape or form said cigar smoking = cigarette smoking. An insurance company views them the same and for the purposes of a life insurance policy/benefit payout if you die from a smoke related cause it will be hurting the people you bought the policy to protect in the first place. My point was specifically related to that. Now, that said, I am firmly on the cigar smoking does not elevate risks much when evaluating overall reasons for a human to die. BUT, if you really don't believe that smoking cigars every day for a lifetime does not at least statistically make it your most likely cause of death vs literally any other reason than it's probably not worth getting into an argument over it. Just one person's assessment on things that can be read on the internet or elsewhere. 

[JR Kipling]

Frank - you obviously didn't read the article. Your personal 'beliefs' about what's likely to cause a cigar smoker's demise don't matter.

As some wise man said - " Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Not all opinions are equally valid, however."


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[JMacSr]

I accept the fact that there are risks associated. My problem is that according to insurance companies you are either a smoker or a non smoker. I'm trying to purchase a simple term policy that will run from approx age 41-61. I totally hope it's a waste of money as I would love nothing more than to outlive this policy. However, simply having nicotine in your blood test will result in a massive increase in premium.


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[JR Kipling]

The very relevant point on which I do agree with Frank, regards how the insurance company will treat the claim. Shop around and/or adjust your smoking patterns as you find personally appropriate.

Here's an article from a few years back. It's likely a good idea to see what the current conditions are.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2014/04/can-cigar-smokers-get-life-insurance/index.htm

I found this article with a quick websearch 'life insurance for cigar smokers'



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[PapaDisco]

49 minutes ago, FrankJerseyCigars said:

I said I didn't want to get into the health risk topic, but I'll address it. I in no way shape or form said cigar smoking = cigarette smoking. An insurance company views them the same and for the purposes of a life insurance policy/benefit payout if you die from a smoke related cause it will be hurting the people you bought the policy to protect in the first place. My point was specifically related to that. Now, that said, I am firmly on the cigar smoking does not elevate risks much when evaluating overall reasons for a human to die. BUT, if you really don't believe that smoking cigars every day for a lifetime does not at least statistically make it your most likely cause of death vs literally any other reason than it's probably not worth getting into an argument over it. Just one person's assessment on things that can be read on the internet or elsewhere. 

Ah ha . . . Frankie baby . . . quite the statistical opposite!

According to the largest direct study ever done (Surgeon General's '68 study), moderate cigar smokers actually live slightly longer than non-smokers.  You do have increased risks of oral cancers (but the base rate is so small as to make this insignificant), but in terms of mortality from all causes, cigar smokers do very well.  And, by the way, "moderate" is defined as "5 or fewer cigars per day"    

So a cigar smoker is, like anyone else in society, more likely to die from old age or an auto accident.  Or a jealous spouse in Rob's case.  

As to the original post, you have to test negative for both nicotine (clears in about 72 hours) and cotine which takes 2-3 weeks to clear.  I concur that just taking a break and planning to go back is a risky proposition.  In my experience, insurance companies don't bother to investigate when you sign up (too expensive to do that) only when it comes time to pay out.  And if they can discover a smoking history prior to your policy initiation they will likely challenge the payout.  Best is to find coverage that allows 'occasional' cigar use and live with that.

I agree with the others here that almost no one distinguishes between the effects of cigarette smoking and cigar smoking, even though there's a world of difference.  Sad but true.

[Colt45]

Getting out of bed and facing the world everyday is a health risk. That said, I fall into the camp of being against subterfuge if the goal is to protect one's loved ones.

[FrankJerseyCigars]

Just FYI, I never said it was more likely you'd die from cigar smoking compared to everything else combined. Just that statistically, as in lets say you have 1 in a million chance of dying due to being hit by a bus, you'd have a 1 in 100,000 chance of dying due to cigar smoking. Statistically more likely compared to everything else individually. That said, if you want to tell me that smoking a cigar increases your life expectancy in and of itself, that is hog wash. If you want to make a case that cigar smokers, due to their willingness to take a break from their day and de-stress via smoking a cigar or other reason x out of a million that denotes a positive health habit due to the activity, have a higher life expectancy, then it will be due to indirect but correlated reasons. Not directly because you smoked a cigar you get to live longer. 

Why oh why did I decide to delve into this with such a wonderful community. No good can come from it. Won't keep posting in this thread.

[PigFish]

Is this about cigar smoking as a health risk (asked rhetorically) or about committing fraud against an insurance company?

I do believe a capable agent should help you with these questions. There are questions about tobacco use and then about 'cigarette smoking.'

I would suggest that one not wishing to imperil their family as a beneficiary of an insurance policy be truthful about it... That is all that I have to offer.

Regardless of how some member might phrase the response, if you commit fraud via your insurance application, there will be no doubt, a clause about fraud and not allowing the company to underwrite accurately. There will be consequences for it...

I would ask myself this. If I am willing to commit fraud against a company to save a few dollars, how would I expect the company to view my claim, if it represented hundreds of thousands of dollars? Do people who act fraudulently 'deserve' to be treated fairly? Why should one view their side of a bilateral agreement as one that can be skated on, while the other's is carved in stone? 

The rest is up to you! -Piggy

[joeypots]

If you smoke cigars, you smoke. I smoke two or three a week and before  I gave blood as part of my life insurance application I abstained for three weeks. I was classified as a smoker. That was more than fifteen years ago and I bet the test is more accurate now. 

[wade1979]

Many carriers will accept a certain monthly amount of cigars and will rate you as tobacco user, but not a cigeratte smoker. Went through this about two years ago. 

[dominattorney]

Defrauding a large soulless corporation is a noble idea, but one best left for wishful thinking. If you don't think they can hit you back, then you're not using your head. 

[cpmurrin]

1 hour ago, wade1979 said:

Many carriers will accept a certain monthly amount of cigars and will rate you as tobacco user, but not a cigeratte smoker. Went through this about two years ago. 

This is my experience as well.  I would not want my family to be in a position where the insurance company is denying the claim due to fraud

[sharks]

2 hours ago, PigFish said:

Is this about cigar smoking as a health risk (asked rhetorically) or about committing fraud against an insurance company?

I do believe a capable agent should help you with these questions. There are questions about tobacco use and then about 'cigarette smoking.'

I would suggest that one not wishing to imperil their family as a beneficiary of an insurance policy be truthful about it... That is all that I have to offer.

Regardless of how some member might phrase the response, if you commit fraud via your insurance application, there will be no doubt, a clause about fraud and not allowing the company to underwrite accurately. There will be consequences for it...

I would ask myself this. If I am willing to commit fraud against a company to save a few dollars, how would I expect the company to view my claim, if it represented hundreds of thousands of dollars? Do people who act fraudulently 'deserve' to be treated fairly? Why should one view their side of a bilateral agreement as one that can be skated on, while the other's is carved in stone? 

The rest is up to you! -Piggy

The man said it all

[Frozen North]

My wife and I own an Insurance Borkerage company, 25 years now. Our major carrier says: 2-3 cigars per week= non smoker. Don't lie to save a few $$$. Cause it usually won't work out for you. Tell the truth,and sleep well at night.

[subport]

Anyway which one is more expensive? The $ difference in the insurance policy between smoker and non-smoker or smoking 5-7 cigars a week? I would estimate the second. Then why not stop smoking cigars to save a few bucks if that is the whole point? And then you can lower your insurance fees too cuz you are no longer a smoker...

 

seriously though. It does not worth it. 

[JMacSr]

Thanks. I appreciate the feed back. I will continue to shop around and maybe find a company that understands the difference. I guess in my head I wasn't looking to "defraud" anyone just get fed up with, "Oh you're a smoker" as if I'm a freak and getting treated as if I'm a 2 pack a day chain cigarette smoker (not that there's anything wrong with that if that's your thing). Anyway I'm glad to hear that there are company's that will rate the difference. Maybe the issue was trying to scoop up insurance with the same company that had my car and auto policies, or possibly just an inexperienced agent that doesn't quite know these things.

Now I'm just rambling.


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[foursite12]

This subject has been raised at least once in the past couple years.  Much the same feedback, including IIRC some pointed comments from Rob.

[Fosgate]

I'll cash in my opinion from the side of the big bad insurance company as a former agent and current multi-line adjuster. It takes 23-27 days for the chemical we look for to fully dissipate depending on amount you smoke and everyone's physiology for metabolism is different. With this said, Lets say if you die and your policy is written with my company and I have reason to suspect you lied? Hmmm. Say you die of an illness which is often linked to tobacco usage or carcinogens exposure, resiratory, circulatory illnesses or someone is just got a grudge against you and tells on you (happens a lot). For investigations I can pull your cell phone records, social media, track your IP to see where your frequent, hobbies, interests or just simply interview your family and friends. I have found threads like this and It would be my obligation to all those other people who pay for their life insurance and pay my salary, to help manage that pool of money. Thus I would forward my findings in which the company would probably deny the claim for knowingly withholding relevant information in which the company relied on to base your premium (lying). They would also forward their findings to the Division of Insurance for the results of the investigation. (In property or bodily injury cases the State may then proceed with charges of insurance fraud.) 

Also, someone mentioned the agent coached them. If we found an agent engaged in doing that it could very well mean their job.

I find it amusing when people (Lawyers included) think the Insurance Company I represent is some big faceless company that we just need to open the checkbook right or wrong. On of my last was a young agent that wrote a policy on a mobile home and we had a claim on it within 60 days of the policy being written. It was apparently dropped when being moved and talking to people the stories just didn't mesh and something felt off. Long story short, pulling the move permit from the local county office, interviews with people involved I discovered the agent wrote a policy and within 30 days they never paid the premium and he rewrote the policy backdating the coverage to the date of the loss and coached them to lie to me about the date the loss happened as if I wouldn't figure it out. The claim was denied, the agent fired and also faces criminal charges now for trying to "help someone out." The people were pissed we didn't pay the $65,000 loss. We are a small agriculture based insurance company. How would I be able to face the people who pay their premiums and face the rate increase for paying for stuff like that or failing to followup on things that don't add up. 

So long story short "DON'T F'ING LIE!" if found out it simply is not worth it and they will keep that premium to pay for the expenses of managing the policy and the claim. I've seen it happen. 

[mrwhitt]

I picked up a new policy last year and listed myself as a cigar smoker with 2-3 per week as Frozen North noted. I also took 10 days off smoking prior to my blood work. The results, I was classified non-smoker because my blood work was clean & my insurer didn't knock me for being a casual cigar smoker. 

[El Presidente]

Some excellent advice has already been given.

I need a few industry leading professionals and consider them as part of my team. I treat them as such. 

1. My Lawyer. 

2. My Accountant

3. My Insurance Agent. 

I don't lie to them. I expect them to do their very best for me and I catch up with each regularly. With Peter Byrne, my insurance agent (personal and general) I catch up professionally twice a year for a review and as a mate I catch up monthly. 

Professionally I expect him to locate the best business and personal policies for me based on my lifestyle and requirements. I expect him to review those policies regularly. 

Find a referral for a good insurance broker in your neck of the woods. Let them research and then put the appropriate policies to you. 

 

[Thomasdenaro]

couldn't agree more with @El Presidente, as i was a sub contractor (sole trader) for a number of years in the construction industry i found a very good accountant and insurance broker, this was for all my personal and business items, i found that it was best to be upfront and truthful and let them do the work to find the best policies to suit your circumstances. trying to get around certain policy requirements to save a few bucks could cost you a hell of a lot more in the long run.