Lets Talk Cohiba

[Fugu]

On 05/03/2017 at 0:35 AM, Corylax18 said:

Ive asked this same question at least 5 times here, and probably 10 other times, and still have not received a logical answer. If Cohiba leaves receive an extra fermentation step before being rolled then why do they REQUIRE (seems to be the consensus here) years down before they become smokable?

You may likewise ask the other way round - why do they require an additional fermentation step?

Maturing behaviour of finished cigars is not in any way directly linked to the duration of fermentation processes. And an underfermented stick will not improve by extended box aging (a common misconception) - it may become milder (blander) but will never be a good cigar.

On 05/03/2017 at 1:07 AM, gweilgi said:

I like to think of myself as a committed and occasionally knowledgeable aficionado, and sitting someplace smoking the same stick as a bunch of businessmen and bankers who wouldn't know shit from shinola when it comes to good leaf does grate on me.

Really? I couldn't care less what others are smoking (drinking, eating...) - be it connoisseurs be it posers.

Don't let others get in the way of your decision on what to smoke. If you like a Cohiba, smoke a Cohiba.

[David88]

Things are only worth what people are willing to pay for them. Cohiba always seems to go very quickly in 24:24 sales so I would think that for many people they are worth the price premium.
Personally I like Cohiba. Good examples are spectacular. The price puts me off investing heavily in them, but if I had a larger budget I am sure that I would a few more boxes in my humidor. I like to have a wide variety of marcas in my stock and can't see that changing. If I were to come into big money I can't say that I enjoy Cohiba enough to only start buying them at the expense of H Upmann or Por Larranaga for example.

[Lotusguy]

Cohiba is my new retirement plan - better ROI than the stock market by far, and if things really go south I can just smoke them

The prices being paid and asked for are just laughable at this point - both fresh or aged.

[gweilgi]

3 hours ago, Lotusguy said:

Cohiba is my new retirement plan - better ROI than the stock market by far, and if things really go south I can just smoke them

The prices being paid and asked for are just laughable at this point - both fresh or aged.

First rule of investment: diversify.

So park some of your retirement funds in single malt .... same ridiculous prices, potentially the same ROI, and the exact same investment strategy...

[NSXCIGAR]

7 hours ago, Fugu said:

Have to agree with the Captain - my main criticism with Cohiba would be inconsistency. Not a huge Cohiba smoker anyway, though I do enjoy the occasional Lanceros (Espi, Sig 3, 4, 5). But the poor quality consistency simply is non-acceptable. Things seem to have improved recently.

I began thinking that as well, particularly after 09, but as I mentioned, perhaps you were smoking examples too young. It seems post-2009 Cohibas are/were almost a waste to smoke young, and their consequent under-performance young could be mistaken for a lack of consistency. I don't think that Cohiba is really any more or less inconsistent than any other marca. I think they can be more disappointing young than any other marca. And that is a problem.

I will add, however, that I can fully be on board with the fact that when paying a premium, one should expect higher consistency, quality, etc. Unfortunately, I think the price premium for Cohiba is not directly proportional to its relative quality. Sure, very good Cohibas are very, very good, but so are many other cigars. And sure, an added expense is attached to the higher quality wrappers and the added fermentation, which I maintain only adds something unique, not something superior, necessarily. If the additional fermentation resulted in an objectively better product, it would have been the norm for most CC producers for centuries, and it hasn't been. It's ultimately a niche/gimmick for Cohiba.

[Fugu]

3 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

I began thinking that as well, particularly after 09, but as I mentioned, perhaps you were smoking examples too young. It seems post-2009 Cohibas are/were almost a waste to smoke young, and their consequent under-performance young could be mistaken for a lack of consistency.

While I agree with you, NSX, that they need age - no, this is not an age effect. Otherwise, they were in fact consistent, and we were talking of "all young Cohibas are underwhelming", and "all matured / aged Cohibas are plain great". Which they are clearly not. I am talking of sticks from the same box or from comparable boxes of similar age. In the meaning of the word: they are inconsistent.

There are / have been formats notoriously plagued with construction isssues, could occur even in the "easy-rollers" like Sig IV and Coro (which I'd consider a no-no), and I had my fair share of bland specimens. The tobacco quality isn't always there. Cost of production aside, as that alone doesn't justify a double premium, this is beyond acceptable for me, given pricing, and given the nimbus of a super-premium brand, the top of the crop, as Cuba promotes it. I don't care about a "third fermentation" or a special wrapper (or even nimbus) if that doesn't consistently make a good cigar.

Just to be clear, this is not a Cohiba bashing, I like them on occasion, even had great ones. I have them in my rotation. But am saying that I observe(d) a higher variabilty with them. I may be wrong or not be representative, this simply is my observation (and seemingly, of some others, too). Well, some vitolas are simply mass produced, and you can indeed find reliably higher consistency in sticks of lower prod.-volume of some other marcas. As I said, Cohiba appears to be on an upswing recently - and I hope the trend will continue and sustain.

[NSXCIGAR]

9 hours ago, Fugu said:

There are / have been formats notoriously plagued with construction isssues, could occur even in the "easy-rollers" like Sig IV and Coro (which I'd consider a no-no), and I had my fair share of bland specimens. The tobacco quality isn't always there. Cost of production aside, as that alone doesn't justify a double premium, this is beyond acceptable for me, given pricing, and given the nimbus of a super-premium brand, the top of the crop, as Cuba promotes it. I don't care about a "third fermentation" or a special wrapper (or even nimbus) if that doesn't consistently make a good cigar...

You hadn't been clear that you were referring to construction specifically--thanks for the clarification. Yes, construction issues are always inexcusable, but even more so for Cohiba. Again, another factor which should be less common when supposedly paying a premium. 

The bottom line is--and I totally agree--Cohiba's price doesn't adequately reflect the risk. Dollar for dollar, far more potential downside than upside with them. I have also seen what appears to be a recent upswing in overall quality, and to what degree that can be attributed to much lower production is an interesting question. I guess I end up in total agreement with you and back to my original feelings--this is exactly the reason I always hesitate buying Cohiba.

[vladdraq]

 for me, they have that unique flavour profile i'm willing to pay the extra cash for, regardless to construction issues. Yes you can have soft spots, runners, tight ones,  loose ones, but lack of flavour never happened to me.

 

[TBird55]

 I have been putting a box of esplendidos down each of the last 3 years,  will continue doing this for 2 more years,  then have a box with 5 yrs age to smoke each year. Not easy to stay out of therm,  after an adult beverage or two. 

[JohnS]

In reply to this thread here, I wanted to add further that, in my opinion, there is a difference in the main lines, the Clasica Linea (i.e. Robustos, Espléndidos, Lanceros, Exquisitos, Piramides Extra etc.) and the Linea 1492 (i.e. Siglos I,II,III,IV,V and VI). Apart from Habanos S.A asserting on their website currently that the Classic Line is medium-full bodied and the Linea 1492 is medium-bodied, I find that the main difference in regards to flavour between the two main lines is that the Classic Line Cohiba cigars have a slight nuance towards a light coffee/mocha and butter texture when aged, in comparison to the Siglo I-V which I find bring out a combined grass or hay and cream texture when aged. The Siglo VI I find stands out on it's own from the Siglo I-V in that personally, I find that they are more inclined to have a buttered texture when aged, unlike the other Siglos which I find more creamy, and not as distinctive in the Siglo grass/hay, to me it stands on its own as unique in the Siglo line.

[canadianbeaver]

When Mr Beav and I joined here and began the Cuban voyage, we had a thing about not paying for the most expensive ones. Seeking the best ones that were not a fortune, especially since they were not loaded with Canadian taxes, was a great thing.

This was the most wonderful cigar transformation on this forum, and making a ton of in person friends as well.

Now move several years ahead and the Beavers are Cohiba crazy! We have our cigar standard, set by Mr Beaver.

Cigars each time must blow us away. There are only so many in a day, week, lifetime. And they cost a fortune. We talk about them online so we are obsessed. 

If the stick does not, pitch and light another. They are all here and are not going anywhere.

Fave one is Cohiba Siglo 3 for me, Robusto or Siglo 6 for him if he feels special.

CB

[Duxnutz]

I’m not a Cohiba snob by any stretch, in fact I rarely smoke them but I absolutely adore a well rested one. Siglo VI, Eplendido and robusto could keep content for a long time. Alway enjoy a CCE for a change of pace. 

Hardest thing about boxes of them is breaking into them as I know they are tough to acquire at a reasonable price. 

[joeypots]

I had quite a few Els and REs. Except for a very few I sold them and bought Cohiba Classics and Siglos.  I like them better than most if not all of the special releases.Can't afford to smoke too many of them but they are currently my favorite marca closely followed by Montecristo.

[SigmundChurchill]

My two favorite regular production cigars are Siglo VI and Esplendidos.  I fell in love with the Siglo VI on it’s original release, and have not looked back.  It is just MY flavor profile I guess.  Sure, I like the flavor profiles in other cigars, just not as much.

I sometimes wonder why I dont just smoke those two cigars every day and screw all the rest.  Maybe I would get bored of them?  Maybe I would lose the “hobby” part of smoking cigars?  Maybe a little of both?  Maybe neither?  I should try it some day.

[Winchester21]

I am a fan of the entire lineup My favorite is whatever size I can get in PSP grade I really love the coro and the esplinditos I would say that 75% of my 24/24 purchased are Cohibas I currently have about 25 boxes resting in my humidors 

 

[CubanConnoisseur]

I have yet to try the Robustos, although I have heard from a few sources they are similar to the HdM Epi No. 2 (which I have and do enjoy). Any opinions when comparing these two sticks?

[SMQQKIN]

On 3/3/2017 at 9:44 PM, NSXCIGAR said:

When Cohiba is on, the cigars are great. For me, it's a price and aging issue. For some reason Cohibas produced since 2009-2010 seem to need some serious downtime before they even begin to blossom. Like 2 years minimum, particularly the Lanceros and CEs. Under 2 years and sometimes even 3 or 4, they can be on the blander side and a bit muddled leaving many disappointed. I was actually purchasing Exquisitos on a regular basis from around 07-09, and they smoked great fresh. Then, the price went up and they began to need some age.

I would not consider myself a Cohiba smoker, but I would not hesitate to purchase any of the Linea Clasica models from El Laguito and smoke them after 2-5 years on them. I just don't have the patience to age them and again, the price is a bit prohibitive to me. But somewhere in my head I kick myself every year for not having purchased some a few years ago and having them available. 

"I would not hesitate to purchase any of the Linea Clasica models from El Laguito and smoke them after 2-5 years on them."

^Bingo!

[Corylax18]

2 hours ago, CubanConnoisseur said:

I have yet to try the Robustos, although I have heard from a few sources they are similar to the HdM Epi No. 2 (which I have and do enjoy). Any opinions when comparing these two sticks?

Save your money. 

[Islandboy]

2 hours ago, CubanConnoisseur said:

I have yet to try the Robustos, although I have heard from a few sources they are similar to the HdM Epi No. 2 (which I have and do enjoy). Any opinions when comparing these two sticks?

I’ve only had both sticks with a few years on them, so can’t speak to the legendary aged Robusto profile. If I had to choose at 2 years old, I’d take Epi 2. Deep nutty cream, and a wonderful sweetness I equate to toasted coconut, having actually enjoyed that here in the Islands. I find young CoRos are more hay, with fringes of graham cracker and honey, and a lovely citrus twang if you’re lucky at that young age, but less sweet and creamy than Epi 2. Completely different flavor profiles IMO.

[Haaltert]

My favourite Cohiba's are: siglo6, Maduro genios and piramides extra. Am a little surprised about construction issues on Cohiba compared to other Marca. Imho the chance to have a well constructed cc is higher with Cohiba than other marcas. Anyone else shares my opinion?


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[NSXCIGAR]

12 hours ago, Haaltert said:

My favourite Cohiba's are: siglo6, Maduro genios and piramides extra. Am a little surprised about construction issues on Cohiba compared to other Marca. Imho the chance to have a well constructed cc is higher with Cohiba than other marcas. Anyone else shares my opinion?

The vast majority of Cohiba is rolled in the same factories as everything else so there's no reason it would be any different than the other marcas. I suppose the generally better wrappers might help slightly in wrapper combustion but marginally so, if at all.

I don't think there's any evidence to indicate Cohiba as a marca is any more or less reliable than any other on the whole. There may of course be some psychological bias as a problem with Cohiba is more apparent and frustrating and memorable as more money was paid and it has the name. Few people smoke Cohiba exclusively or as their regular cigar. I can imagine one's expectations are subconsciously higher with Cohiba and more minor issues are more likely to be noticed as for most of us Cohiba is somewhat of a "treat" cigar.

[SigmundChurchill]

2 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

The vast majority of Cohiba is rolled in the same factories as everything else so there's no reason it would be any different than the other marcas. I suppose the generally better wrappers might help slightly in wrapper combustion but marginally so, if at all.

I don't think there's any evidence to indicate Cohiba as a marca is any more or less reliable than any other on the whole. There may of course be some psychological bias as a problem with Cohiba is more apparent and frustrating and memorable as more money was paid and it has the name. Few people smoke Cohiba exclusively or as their regular cigar. I can imagine one's expectations are subconsciously higher with Cohiba and more minor issues are more likely to be noticed as for most of us Cohiba is somewhat of a "treat" cigar.

So the chosen rollers and inspection process within the same factory is not more rigorous for the more expensive cigars, like Cohiba or Trinidad than it is for, say, Vegueros?

 

BTW, from someone who smokes a lot of Cohibas, the burn can be just as wonky as any other brand.

[NSXCIGAR]

On 7/15/2018 at 5:14 PM, SigmundChurchill said:

So the chosen rollers and inspection process within the same factory is not more rigorous for the more expensive cigars, like Cohiba or Trinidad than it is for, say, Vegueros?

Even if the best rollers in their respective factories roll all the Cohiba (which is highly improbable) those same rollers roll everything else when not rolling Cohiba, so their skill touches many cigars and many marcas. Quality between marcas or even between vitolas, let's say, would still be constant between them. And in reality they are. Again, there's nothing I've seen in 20+ years to indicate any particular marca or vitola is more reliably consistent than any other for any meaningful period of time, excluding El Laguito factory cigars that aren't touched by any second-rate rollers. 

Quite frankly, there's no way a Siglo II isn't being rolled by every Tomas, Ricardo and Geraldo in every factory. It's a high-production Marevas that any rookie can roll, and they do. Hard to screw up the blend when only two leaves are filler. Construction and draw issues are another matter, however. 

 

 

[BrightonCorgi]

On 7/15/2018 at 8:14 PM, SigmundChurchill said:

So the chosen rollers and inspection process within the same factory is not more rigorous for the more expensive cigars, like Cohiba or Trinidad than it is for, say, Vegueros?

Doesn't make factory sense to change protocol simply because today we are rolling Cohiba.  Cigar factories need to be consistent day in and out on all aspects of manufacture.  

[Doctorossi]

I'm not a big Cohiba fan. Many of them underwhelm me. I do love a nice CoLa, though.