Corojo 2012: New Tobacco Strain Being Grown in Pinar Del Rio

[Silverstix]

2 hours ago, Corylax18 said:

I've never understood it. I'm not excited that its going to start being rolled into Cubans, cigars I smoke. 

It wasn't bred for better flavor, or better consistency. It was bred to produce more, through disease resistance and an extra set of leaves. At the expense of some other trait. IF you're going to claim you're using Cuban seed, why would you claim your using the worst one?(from a customer experience) 

Apparently nobody does any research, at all. This crap wouldn't work otherwise. I'll be avoiding anything claiming c 2012 was used for as long as I can. (Cubans included)

 

where would one find information about the strains being used in Cubans?

[Corylax18]

9 minutes ago, Silverstix said:

where would one find information about the strains being used in Cubans?

Here and There. Haha.  

This article was in "Granma" the Cuban state media organization, they usually have a few articles each fall and spring on the harvest and related items. Cigar Aficionado has occasional articles on the subject or mention it their PdR weather reports. 

Regardless of who reports it, the best info comes from the farmers themselves. Every Farm and Every Farmer are different. Some strains work better with more water or sun, others the opposite. Plus about a thousand other variables. Ultimately, most Cuban farmers care about weight. They get paid by the Kilo, maybe a little more per Kilo if the quality is very high, but not much. If this strain does consistently deliver higher yields, I'm sure some farmers have/will adopt it. But, unless its some crazy super strain, I dont see it (or any strain) being grown universally. 

The Habanos SA website actually has the best primer I've ever seen on strains, the Cuban Tobacco institute, Etc. Sit down with a nice big cigar and read through the info in the link below. There is a tremendous amount of great information there. (when the website is working) Think of the Cuban Tobaccos institute like Monsanto, without the GMO;s. They breed and provide all the seeds to All the farmers. 

https://www.habanos.com/en/the-world-of-the-habano/

[Huckleberry]

I don’t know, I’m just sharing what is all over the NC cigar world press.  You seem to know a lot about it.  I’m not going to propose that I know how multi million dollar organizations obtain seed, plant seed, harvest seed, or roll into cigars.

Whether it’s possible or not isn’t my call to make to be honest.  You appear to know way more about what is and isn’t possible.

I simply posted what I posted because I thought it was relevant to the discussion of Corojo 2012 and I love all things corojo.

I will buy and try these cigars because I’m curious and interested in seeing how they taste.  Only needing to buy one or two of each to find my answer is something I am very interested in and willing to do.

It could all be BS, but there are a heck of a lot of reputable cigar people reporting on it, and AGANORSA Leaf itself has quite a reputation in the industry.

I don’t see how lying about using a reportedly crap leaf presents them anything to gain.  They certainly aren’t claiming it to be Cuban tobacco, and there sales are doing more than alright.

[Silverstix]

11 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

I don’t know, I’m just sharing what is all over the NC cigar world press.  You seem to know a lot about it.  I’m not going to propose that I know how multi million dollar organizations obtain seed, plant seed, harvest seed, or roll into cigars.

Whether it’s possible or not isn’t my call to make to be honest.  You appear to know way more about what is and isn’t possible.

I simply posted what I posted because I thought it was relevant to the discussion of Corojo 2012 and I love all things corojo.

I will buy and try these cigars because I’m curious and interested in seeing how they taste.  Only needing to buy one or two of each to find my answer is something I am very interested in and willing to do.

It could all be BS, but there are a heck of a lot of reputable cigar people reporting on it, and AGANORSA Leaf itself has quite a reputation in the industry.

I don’t see how lying about using a reportedly crap leaf presents them anything to gain.  They certainly aren’t claiming it to be Cuban tobacco, and there sales are doing more than alright.

AGANORSA is definitely one of the highest regarded farms and factories in the NC world, no question about that.  My personal experience with them has been hit or miss, don't love the Warped stuff from there as of late.  A lot of NC companies use tricky or misleading advertising though - "cuban seed" for example - to imply that there is something Cuban about their product.  The world recognizes Cuba as the creme de la creme of the cigar world and some of the NC companies are 100% trying to catch customers with the terms they use.  No different than any other misleading claims that other industries use.  Like buying chips that claim in big bold letters "50% less fat".....gotta check that fine print.  50% less fat than what? Eating a tub of lard?  LOL 

[Corylax18]

39 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

I don’t know, I’m just sharing what is all over the NC cigar world press.  You seem to know a lot about it.  I’m not going to propose that I know how multi million dollar organizations obtain seed, plant seed, harvest seed, or roll into cigars.

Whether it’s possible or not isn’t my call to make to be honest.  You appear to know way more about what is and isn’t possible.

I simply posted what I posted because I thought it was relevant to the discussion of Corojo 2012 and I love all things corojo.

I will buy and try these cigars because I’m curious and interested in seeing how they taste.  Only needing to buy one or two of each to find my answer is something I am very interested in and willing to do.

It could all be BS, but there are a heck of a lot of reputable cigar people reporting on it, and AGANORSA Leaf itself has quite a reputation in the industry.

I don’t see how lying about using a reportedly crap leaf presents them anything to gain.  They certainly aren’t claiming it to be Cuban tobacco, and there sales are doing more than alright.

Any unpleasantness in my post was not directed at you, at all. I appreciate that you posted it.

My frustration is fully with the marketing departments of the NC companies doing this kind of thing. I'm far from an expert, but I'm curious. 

I've learned a ton over the 15 or so years I've smoked Cubans and I'm excited to keep learning more. But like anything else, the more you learn, the less you know. 

Most people don't go nearly as far down the rat hole as I have. So just because the marketing doesn't work on me, doesn't mean it wont work on a more casual smoker. Most people dont want or need to spend the time I have learning. Kids, jobs etc. I get it. But its frustrating when relatively well respected brands take advantage of that. 

[Enduin]

Let's not forget that the exact same seeds of the exact same cultivar of tobacco (like in this case Corojo 2012) will inevitably taste different if they are grown outside of Cuba. Not necessarily worse but different. So even if such plants are being grown in Nicaragua, it means close to nothing in terms of the flavor profile. Yes all the marketing is fairly annoying for people who are genuinely passionate but most people are not like us so it's hard to blame the companies if the strategy works...

[Huckleberry]

11 hours ago, Enduin said:

Let's not forget that the exact same seeds of the exact same cultivar of tobacco (like in this case Corojo 2012) will inevitably taste different if they are grown outside of Cuba. Not necessarily worse but different. So even if such plants are being grown in Nicaragua, it means close to nothing in terms of the flavor profile. Yes all the marketing is fairly annoying for people who are genuinely passionate but most people are not like us so it's hard to blame the companies if the strategy works...

Absolutely true.  I wasn't trying to suggest they are using cuban tobacco, I wasn't fully aware that Cuba owned the rights to Corojo 2012.  I mean we all remember Habano 2000 right?  It ruined the enjoyment of cigars produced with that as the wrapper leaf all around the world

I am guessing seed varietals could be sold, bartered, or given away for the sake of the cause?  Who knows...

I mainly posted what I did to show that this seed varietal was allegedly producing wrapper leaf for some cigars, somewhere, even though that might not be in Cuba.  If it is total dog trash coming out of AGANORSA I don't have a lot of warm fuzzies for it being all that much better if it were used to wrap our beloved CCs.  Habano 2000 was dog trash no matter the country it was grown in.

 

11 hours ago, Corylax18 said:

Any unpleasantness in my post was not directed at you, at all. I appreciate that you posted it.

My frustration is fully with the marketing departments of the NC companies doing this kind of thing. I'm far from an expert, but I'm curious. 

I've learned a ton over the 15 or so years I've smoked Cubans and I'm excited to keep learning more. But like anything else, the more you learn, the less you know. 

Most people don't go nearly as far down the rat hole as I have. So just because the marketing doesn't work on me, doesn't mean it wont work on a more casual smoker. Most people dont want or need to spend the time I have learning. Kids, jobs etc. I get it. But its frustrating when relatively well respected brands take advantage of that. 

I love learning even with kids, jobs, and bills to pay.  I also love all things Corojo. 

It is my understanding that when cigar makers fled cuba some did flee with seeds in their pocket.  I mean it makes sense to me because I would have done the same thing.  I think that is where the "cuban seed" language we so commonly see being thrown around comes from.  I don't doubt that many cigars, rolled using the description "cuban seed", would in fact show to have no cuban seed in their lineage.

I know the Eiroa Family claims "cuban seed" in the "authentic" corojo leaf grown on their family farms in Honduras...

"Incidentally, the Corojo seed was developed by a certain Diego Rodriguez on his farm Santa Ines del Corojo near San Luis in the province of Pinar del Río; for a long time his wrappers were considered the best in the world. The family left Cuba because of Castro’s revolution. The grandson of the farmer and close friend of Christian’s father let him have the valuable seeds for further use."

This also...

"From the new hybrid seeds like Corojo ’99 and ’06, you may get double the amount of yield, but the authentic seed produces an incomparable taste; strong and sweet in the finish. Simply very pleasant."

So even the Eiroa family claims to know and notice a different between authentic cuban lineage seeded corojo wrapper leaf, and the newer hybrids Corojo '99, '06, and now very likely 2012.  Again, understanding that even if they are growing plants from authentic cuban seeds, they still aren't growing corojo in Honduras that would rival that grown in Cuba in my opinion.

What I didn't know but learned today, Cuba started significantly reducing their use of corojo leaf as early as 1987.  I thought it was something that happened during or around the dead years of 99-2001.

That doesn't mean I wouldn't someday love to try a cuban cigar with cuban filler and binder, wrapped in a Honduran authentic corojo wrapper leaf.  I know it wouldn't be a havana puro but I also don't believe it would suck.  It might even be a cracker...

 

12 hours ago, Silverstix said:

AGANORSA is definitely one of the highest regarded farms and factories in the NC world, no question about that.  My personal experience with them has been hit or miss, don't love the Warped stuff from there as of late.  A lot of NC companies use tricky or misleading advertising though - "cuban seed" for example - to imply that there is something Cuban about their product.  The world recognizes Cuba as the creme de la creme of the cigar world and some of the NC companies are 100% trying to catch customers with the terms they use.  No different than any other misleading claims that other industries use.  Like buying chips that claim in big bold letters "50% less fat".....gotta check that fine print.  50% less fat than what? Eating a tub of lard?  LOL 

Hey now go easy on my chips man...I don't want to see those facts in print

[Corylax18]

8 hours ago, Huckleberry said:

I know the Eiroa Family claims "cuban seed" in the "authentic" corojo leaf grown on their family farms in Honduras...

"Incidentally, the Corojo seed was developed by a certain Diego Rodriguez on his farm Santa Ines del Corojo near San Luis in the province of Pinar del Río; for a long time his wrappers were considered the best in the world. The family left Cuba because of Castro’s revolution. The grandson of the farmer and close friend of Christian’s father let him have the valuable seeds for further use."

That very first crop, in the late 50s or early 60s was most certainly Cuban seed. No quotations needed. But after 60 years of of being grown and bred in XXXX country, it isnt anymore. Not by a long shot. If they where truly going those original strains of corojo tobacco the cigars would be a lot better. 

8 hours ago, Huckleberry said:

"From the new hybrid seeds like Corojo ’99 and ’06, you may get double the amount of yield, but the authentic seed produces an incomparable taste; strong and sweet in the finish. Simply very pleasant."

This is exactly the point I was trying to make. 99 and 06 are several steps removed from the original. The new C 2012 is several steps further, the wrong way. Add the additionl changes that would manifest when grow in different soil, a different climate, etc. No thanks. That's not what I'm looking for, at all. C 2012 is the equivalent of a hothouse tomato, big, plump, perfectly red and nearly flavorless. Give me an ugly, knarly, tasty heirloom tomato(older strains) all day.  

 

8 hours ago, Huckleberry said:

What I didn't know but learned today, Cuba started significantly reducing their use of corojo leaf as early as 1987.  I thought it was something that happened during or around the dead years of 99-2001.

Yup, it literally takes a decade, or more, to create, identify, catalogue and stabilize a strain the "old fashion" way. Like Mendel did. Google the "Cosmic Crisp" apple, it can take even longer with some fruit bearers. 

The mold and pest problems where just crushing them. 

[Huckleberry]

3 hours ago, Corylax18 said:

That very first crop, in the late 50s or early 60s was most certainly Cuban seed. No quotations needed. But after 60 years of of being grown and bred in XXXX country, it isnt anymore. Not by a long shot. If they where truly going those original strains of corojo tobacco the cigars would be a lot better. 

This is exactly the point I was trying to make. 99 and 06 are several steps removed from the original. The new C 2012 is several steps further, the wrong way. Add the additionl changes that would manifest when grow in different soil, a different climate, etc. No thanks. That's not what I'm looking for, at all. C 2012 is the equivalent of a hothouse tomato, big, plump, perfectly red and nearly flavorless. Give me an ugly, knarly, tasty heirloom tomato(older strains) all day.  

The only good tomato is grown outside in Iowa soil   it’s the terroir I swear!  They are so good you can eat them like apples!

[Corylax18]

5 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

The only good tomato is grown outside in Iowa soil   it’s the terroir I swear!  They are so good you can eat them like apples!

My parents both Grew up in New Jersey, they talk about those Jersey Tomatoes like they're a drug. Haha.