Hoyo de Monterrey blend, seco leaf, aging and ring gauge

[JohnS]

22 minutes ago, polarbear said:

My memory is a little fuzzy but what came out before the San Juan?
Wasn't it the Petit Robusto?

The hoyo line hasn't had a sub 50rg cigar added to its reg production line up for quite a while if I recall
I don't think there have been more than 2 or 3 sub 50rg cigars added to any Marca in the last 10 years

HSA's releases seem to have either been catering to large 50-55rg smokers or short smokes (half robustos and half coronas)
There hasn't been a regular production, full size corona or corona gorda added to any marca since the Mag 46 way back in 2001(?) 
There hasn't been a regular production lancero since (maybe) the cohiba lancero back in the 90's

I don't think what you're seeing is isolated the the Hoyo line. All the global marcas are receiving large rg additions to their portfolios (Uppman with the Connie A and Mag 54, Partagas with the Serie E ect)

The Epicure Especial and the Petit Robusto are the last HdM additions. Both are 50rg cigars. I concur, that all the marcas are getting post-50 rg additions, especially in the last decade, but the San Juan is the only post-50 rg for HdM (at 54 rg).

[Puros Y Vino]

7 minutes ago, BrightonCorgi said:

Has anyone tried to get an FOH line of cigars rolled?  Is that possible?

Rob did this years ago.  They were custom rolls. 

The Czar. A big "Celestiales Finos" type roll.

The Tampa. A Shaggy foot Dalia IIRC, named after a well loved and respected departed member.

And I think there was a third one planned named after Lisa?  Anyone recall?

I only managed to get my hands on some Czars' years back.  Tampas sold out fast!

[Colt45]

15 minutes ago, bundwallah said:

And I think there was a third one planned named after Lisa?  Anyone recall?

The Lisadores 6-3-8.

If I recall, RA ended up having a problem getting customs out of Cuba. If anyone is interested, search Lisadores for more info.

[polarbear]

Double Post

[polarbear]

2 hours ago, JohnS said:

The Epicure Especial and the Petit Robusto are the last HdM additions. Both are 50rg cigars. I concur, that all the marcas are getting post-50 rg additions, especially in the last decade, but the San Juan is the only post-50 rg for HdM (at 54 rg).

I'm not sure the point you are trying to make here
Are you thinking that HdM is different from all the other global brands because they all have one regular production, straight sided vitola that is over 50rg (montecristo has 2)
Uppman Connie A- 52rg
Partigas Serie E- 54rg
Monte Edmundo and Petit Edmundo- 52rg
RyJ Wide Churchill- 55rg
Cohiba Siglo VI- 52rg

Is it just that HdM is the most recent marca to get a 50+rg cigar added to their line up or is it that you feel the San Juan is not a fair representation of its marca?

[foursite12]

• is the typical Hoyo de Monterrey blend suited to post-50 ring gauge cigars?
  Great question.  I'm not sure the same blend, assembled the same way, automatically guarantees the same result in a vastly different size cigar--even if we are safe to assume that the same flavor would obtain from keeping the same blend percentages. There are architectural considerations in building a cigar to maximize the overall enjoyment that are both diameter- and length-dependent.  The evolution path to be taken over an hour longer smoking time (vs say du Prince), ventilation and all the rest need to be planned and factored.  Would we even like or want a 90 minute du Prince--I don't know.  The beauty of many small cigars lies in their "quick hit" utility.  The size of a cigar sets some expectations and that is the issue I have with the San Juan. The only thing worse that a ball of fluff is a big ball of fluff.  If I'm signing up to tackle a large RG cigar, I do so for a specific reason--to leverage that big RG for what should be the only reason they are built at all--to deliver a high volume of flavorful smoke that is more easily controlled by the smoker. Maybe the volume is there with the San Juan but there are no two ways around it--it is an extremely light cigar. The result? A cigar whose size provides no usable benefit. A bottle of dark beer that tastes like Coors Light. What was the design theory? It's incongruent to me. And its inherent extra expense is unsupported by any gain in either utility or flavor.
• is the San Juan different in blend to the rest of the Le Hoyo line (which is smaller)?
  Without having any facts to support it, I taste a big difference between the Le Hoyo line and the Epicure line. No surprise to me that the San Juan does not taste like the Epicure line but I did expect it to be similar to the Le Hoyo line, and yet to me it does not carry the Le Hoyo flavor profile either. If one were to hold up a Le Hoyo du Prince side by side with a San Juan, who would suspect that the runt would kick ass and take names? 
• Have Habanos S.A 'missed a trick', so to speak, by ignoring past trends and introducing a post-50 ring gauge regular production cigar in 2014?
   No. They missed a trick in the blend and the overall design of the cigar. Larger RG cigars do some things very well. This one, however, fails to leverage them in a way that is meaningful--to me at least.
• if you believe the San Juan is different in blend to other Hoyo de Monterrey cigars, how will this affect aging in comparison, in your opinion
  I was an immediate fan of the San Juan and was convinced it would age to magnificence. I even expressed that sentiment in glowing terms on this forum a year or so ago.  Now I am about to tear up my betting ticket as they come out of the turn and head for home, back in the pack.

[Fuzz]

3 hours ago, bundwallah said:

Rob did this years ago.  They were custom rolls. 

The Czar. A big "Celestiales Finos" type roll.

The Tampa. A Shaggy foot Dalia IIRC, named after a well loved and respected departed member.

And I think there was a third one planned named after Lisa?  Anyone recall?

I only managed to get my hands on some Czars' years back.  Tampas sold out fast!

I only have one lonely Tampa left.

3 hours ago, Colt45 said:

The Lisadores 6-3-8.

If I recall, RA ended up having a problem getting customs out of Cuba. If anyone is interested, search Lisadores for more info.

Wasn't it during the crackdown after Manuel Garcia was arrested?

[polarbear]

Just now, Fuzz said:

I only have one lonely Tampa left.

Wasn't it during the crackdown after Manuel Garcia was arrested?

I think you're right
I'm not sure it'll happen now anyway as I'm willing to guess that Hamlet was going to be doing the rolling (could be wrong about this though)

I was gifted a Tampa a few years back
I was told not to smoke it til the gifter told me too, haven't spoken to him in a while. I hope he's ok otherwise I may never get to smoke it

[BrightonCorgi]

5 hours ago, bundwallah said:

Rob did this years ago.  They were custom rolls. 

More in a sanctioned way, out of a factory, similar to Portmann has done (first one to come to mind) or other retailers/brands have done over the years. 

Habanos just needs someone with vision in marketing & social networking.  When the world is trying to crush your business (tobacco), you need to go direct to the consumer and rally the troops.  Promote and innovate.

Let their loyal consumers specify the next Hoyo on the Habanos  website!  For all the low run Regionals & EL's, give these same consumers something they'll really cherish and build hype on.

[fabes]

Thanks for this discussion @JohnS

 

• is the typical Hoyo de Monterrey blend suited to post-50 ring gauge cigars? I don't think it'soht of the realm of possibility, but it's not my preference. The Hoyo DC does quite nicely at 50rg
• is the San Juan different in blend to the rest of the Le Hoyo line (which is smaller)? I found the San Juan more similar to the double corona than the le hoyo line. 
• have Habanos S.A 'missed a trick', so to speak, by ignoring past trends and introducing a post-50 ring gauge regular production cigar in 2014? This has been done in all the lines and people buy them up allday long. I've enjoyed sitting in a local B&M and people watching. Most people are buying larger rg cigars. Hands down. It's easy to get caught in the connoisseur bubble, but it doesn't reflect mainline consumers. Furthermore, I think we should differentiate under 50rg and over 50rg for these conversations. Not just post 50rg, because as someone already mentioned there have been several 50rg and over cigars introduced in the Hoyo marca in the last decade. Do they all suit the Hoyo blend?
• if you believe the San Juan is different in blend to other Hoyo de Monterrey cigars, how will this affect aging in comparison, in your opinion? Time will tell... do all hoyos build cream over time? 

To me, the larger you go with rg, the larger variances you will have in roll quality. A slight loose draw on a corona/gorda will be quite loose on a 54rg. I personally have had the most draw difficulty on larger rg cigars. It takes the enjoyment out of the cigar when I have to tend to the burn frequently because it went crooked or is a wind tunnel and never burns properly. 

While I've enjoyed the San Juans I've tried, I'd rather have a box of DCs for the money. 

There is a certain length : rg ratio that delivers excellent progression and chance for development over the cigar. PCs, corona gorda, churchill/DCs are similar in that ratio.

I don't find the same progression in robustos. If seen in a length : rg ratio, it appears that the Geniales vitola is just a super-sized robusto. 

[jcorona]

Large rg cigars sell well in the US market, the largest cigar consuming market in the world. From a marketing pov, it would behoove Habanos sa to introduce further higher rg (over 50) cigars to their portfolio, thus preparing for the eventual conquering of the US market. Assuming of course, that they have the tobacco supplies to do so.

[Fugu]

Hoyo once had been famous for having in their portfolio the largest Cuban vitola ever made, the Maravillas (currently replicated in the Collection Book) - just sayin'....  

 

All recent additions and special releases (LCDH and the latest LE, Petit Robustos and EE) to HdM have been rg 50 or beyond. So, like polarbear, I don't actually see a much different trend here as for other marcas. While rather academic in this respect, still a nice discussion! Thanks John!

As for blending, as others have alluded to - you can't really expect a true "sameness" in blending between a 54 and a 33 rg cigar (HdG). You can't maintain a fix percentage in the blend components due to the demands set by combustion and constructing (less if not 'ningun' ligero in the slender formats), the "architectural" matters, as foursite sais. Even a core 'family'-characteristic will be tricky to be found, as the format per se makes for a very different smoking characteristic and experience. I for one can't provide a decent answer to your question, also since most of my le Hoyo cigars have been aged for longer, so very difficult to compare anyway. Way to soon for a verdict yet, if you ask me.

20 hours ago, foursite12 said:

If one were to hold up a Le Hoyo du Prince side by side with a San Juan, who would suspect that the runt would kick ass and take names? 

Me!   Actually, that's indeed what you'd expect, isn't it. Perhaps not so much in the Prince, but for the des Dieux, the du Depute, du Roi and the du Gourmet for sure.

While I am writing this - I realize - it's perhaps a bit starry-eyed to still speak of a "le-Hoyo line", as this line factually doesn't exist anymore!

[Colt45]

12 hours ago, Fuzz said:

Wasn't it during the crackdown after Manuel Garcia was arrested?

I believe so. I also seem to remember the term "real pirates"...... 

[ErikB]

Great thread , but I'm afraid we are the only ones wondering about this .. HSA just want the money , not consistency. Even the thinner Hoyos are strong sometimes. Also remember buying a box of Epi 2's at the LCdH and the cigars being very dark and strong


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[Fuzz]

On 15/11/2008 at 11:58 AM, El Presidente said:

Quality Seco has a depth of flavour and a complexity all of its own. Matched to the correct wrapper and in say a 33-36 format you would have a cracker of a cigar which can be fuller in body or lighter in style dependent on the characteristics of the wrapper used. You would need a little Volado to help the burn as well because this tasting was a frustrating exercise at times.

I recall this from a tasting Rob did with a mareva sized cigar that was all Seco (rolled by Yasmel Rodriguez).