What makes them cost more?

[zeedubbya]

What, besides limited availability and size makes certain cigars cost more than others?  Exclude Cohiba.  My main thought is on the Connie A.  I think the Connie A is a great cigar but why is it so much more expensive than others?  Is the leaf a higher quality?  Come from a better farm?  Are they more selective with the tobaccos?  Is the tobacco aged longer? Is it rolled by higher grade rollers?  Rob said in a review of the Connie A it reminded him of a Grand Reserva. Is there something to this?  This is a curiosity I have had for quite sometime now.  Thanks for your thoughts.  

[El Presidente]

4 minutes ago, zeedubbya said:

What, besides limited availability and size makes certain cigars cost more than others?  Exclude Cohiba.  My main thought is on the Connie A.  I think the Connie A is a great cigar but why is it so much more expensive than others?  Is the leaf a higher quality?  Come from a better farm?  Are they more selective with the tobaccos?  Is the tobacco aged longer? Is it rolled by higher grade rollers?  Rob said in a review of the Connie A it reminded him of a Grand Reserva. Is there something to this?  This is a curiosity I have had for quite sometime now.  Thanks for your thoughts.  

Z.....pretty much market positioning is the only answer I can think of. It is my opinion only. 

Let me explain. 

HSA hasn't really touched the price of core cigars. D4/M2/ Petit Corona's etc for a number of years.  This is the price to distributors. They may have once or twice but it is marginal. 

Since they price in USD, an increasing value of the USD over the past couple of years has done most of the heavy lifting for them. 

However since about (from the top of my head) 2012/13 .....almost anything new that has been released they have gone to town on. D5/6 Connie A/Monte Petit 2 /Anejado etc. They haven't missed most Edicion Limitadas either. 

It hasn't always worked on all the new releases as cigars such as the D5/D6/Monte Petit 2/Anejado have I am sure, undershot sales expectations. Others such as the Connie A/Mag 56/CRS/Vigia have been successes regardless of the relatively high price point. 

 

[zeedubbya]

33 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

Z.....pretty much market positioning is the only answer I can think of. It is my opinion only. 

Let me explain. 

HSA hasn't really touched the price of core cigars. D4/M2/ Petit Corona's etc for a number of years.  This is the price to distributors. They may have once or twice but it is marginal. 

Since they price in USD, an increasing value of the USD over the past couple of years has done most of the heavy lifting for them. 

However since about (from the top of my head) 2012/13 .....almost anything new that has been released they have gone to town on. D5/6 Connie A/Monte Petit 2 /Anejado etc. They haven't missed most Edicion Limitadas either. 

It hasn't always worked on all the new releases as cigars such as the D5/D6/Monte Petit 2/Anejado have I am sure, undershot sales expectations. Others such as the Connie A/Mag 56/CRS/Vigia have been successes regardless of the relatively high price point. 

 

Thank you, I was hoping you would see this post and chime in.  I suppose I shouldn't be surprised, because the more things I learn about HSA from people in the know the more I realize it's a lot less "mysterious" and complicated than I have imagined.  There's just not that many mythical secret things happening it's really nothing more than it appears.  Maybe far worse.  I suppose I feel a little let down every time I hear this.  

How I wanted the answer to my question be answered is the vision of the hardworking aging/experienced farmer at his Finca harvesting Extra Vega Fina tobacco and setting it aside for special cigars like the Connie A and the extra extra special tobacco for the Grand Reservas and Cohiba and having an in depth discussion with the middle man who is going to warehouse and gently care for this extra special leaf while it gets processed through to the factory where the blend master examines this super incredible leaf and declares it perfect for the Connie A and gives it only to his highest grade rollers to make into the perfect cigar which will justify the extra price tag (in US dollars--head scratcher there), and on to the boxing where people will ooh and ahh over the special blend and how it will be enjoyed by others because it's made from the mythical tobacco delegated for the Connie A and others.  

I think cigar smokers in this country carry this huge misconception, because of the "forbidden fruit" concept that there has to be more to it than there is.  But there really isn't.  It's seems the reality is it's a marketing and logistical circus of sorts.  At least this is my impression gathered over the last few years.  I am not surprised by your answer.  I thank you for taking the time to give a great explanation.  And thank you for helping us navigate through this clustered mess.  I am sure it can be trying at times.  

[El Presidente]

Cheers Z but it is only my opinion. 

I generally don't believe in magic  . I suppose you can in some way correlate what I am saying with the price point of the Monte Media Corona and the H.Upmann Half Corona. 

Both the same size. Both global brands. The Upmann released 2011 and the Monte 2015.  I wouldn't be far wrong to say the Monte has an average 20%+ higher pricing around the traps. Take a look when you get the chance. 

[zeedubbya]

30 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

Cheers Z but it is only my opinion. 

I generally don't believe in magic  . I suppose you can in some way correlate what I am saying with the price point of the Monte Media Corona and the H.Upmann Half Corona. 

Both the same size. Both global brands. The Upmann released 2011 and the Monte 2015.  I wouldn't be far wrong to say the Monte has an average 20%+ higher pricing around the traps. Take a look when you get the chance. 

Yep you're right on the money with your opinion...I looked all around and the post 2012/2013 releases are higher price points seemingly across the board.  

You don't believe in magic?  I suppose next you'll tell me all releases after 2016 will be in 20 count boxes!  Or there's no Santa Claus?  

 

[miurajus]

Could we possibly hypothesize that marca specific blends have something to do with it (I don't have any sites up with pricing currently) from a tobacco production standpoint?  According to CCW, ligero does take the longest to process, could it be that due to the blend variances, ie.. ones which utilize a higher ligero % (imagining Ryan's board post), that due to the turnaround time, they have a correlating metric that prices cigars higher, or lower?

[Fugu]

5 hours ago, zeedubbya said:

How I wanted the answer to my question be answered is the vision of the hardworking aging/experienced farmer at his Finca harvesting Extra Vega Fina tobacco and setting it aside for special cigars like the Connie A and the extra extra special tobacco for the Grand Reservas and Cohiba and having an in depth discussion with the middle man who is going to warehouse and gently care for this extra special leaf while it gets processed through to the factory where the blend master examines this super incredible leaf and declares it perfect for the Connie A and gives it only to his highest grade rollers to make into the perfect cigar which will justify the extra price tag

That's actually exactly how the Connie A appears to me. So why bother? Try out as much as you can and buy what you - personally - find worth the money. Let yourself be ruled by your taste and the smoking experience and not by which cigar comes with the best story.

That's actually why some people here on this board are strong advocates of regular production. It certainly is not all simple marketing, but finding the true values here is the trick.

[CaptainQuintero]

I remember the feeling of being cheated by a 24 count Trinidad box! Things have certainly moved quickly these past few years

[Fugu]

41 minutes ago, Hutch said:

Interesting that ConnAs have been used as the example. Those, and the Picadores, are the only two that I have wholeheartedly embraced and have stocked in heavily, willing to pay the "new item premium".

Absolutely with you on this, Hutch. Add to it the - not as new, but still - RA Superiores and we got the three winners of recent new regular/LCDH releases. In the Picadores, I actually don't even see much of a premium to pay, they are very fairly priced, and are - by far - the cheapest of all 'Robusto'-sized cigars, as I see it. Same holding for the RAS, although yet not as much a bargain anymore as it had been on release.

The Connie A actually is indeed a poor example here, as this is one of those new releases that (consistently, as to my assessment) comes with top-notch quality in tobacco as well as in construction and some first-class wrappers. Atm, and even with leaving the price aside, I prefer it over a SW, which can be hit and miss.

[earthson]

Are my old standards (RASS, HUPC, PLMC, Shorts) going to be deleted or simply experience a significant price hike? Only time will tell.

Now if they delete the above just to release a 55 RG jawbreaker, I'm going to have to rethink my tobacco use...

[MahDooRow]

4 hours ago, Fugu said:

That's actually why some people here on this board are strong advocates of regular production. It certainly is not all simple marketing, but finding the true values here is the trick.

Rob's daily sales (24:24, 24:72) aid greatly in the process of finding the best value among boxes of current production.  If it weren't for the helpful info provided (i.e. pictures, quality designations, factory codes) my purchasing habits would be significantly more conservative.  

[zeedubbya]

2 hours ago, Fugu said:

The Connie A actually is indeed a poor example here, as this is one of those new releases that (consistently, as to my assessment) comes with top-notch quality in tobacco as well as in construction and some first-class wrappers. Atm, and even with leaving the price aside, I prefer it over a SW, which can be hit and miss.

My original question arose based on the Connie A because I am in agreement with you Fugu.  IMO the Connie A is the only one which seems to justify the extra $.  Which is why I asked the question if it contained premium leaf.  Rob said it was his opinion that it was merely the result of price increases by HSA post 2013.  It seems to be a general consensus that Connie A is a hit.  I don't feel the same way about Picadores at all.  It's just meh I think.  Only other one which may justify the extra price is the Vigia, but I haven't had enough of them to make a truly accurate assessment.  I suppose it really just comes down to price vs value regardless of the price tag.  

[TheMonk]

Agreed as well, the Connie A is one of the more recent releases that I feel is actually worth it, even though I don't think it's better then the SW. That is blasphemy, @Fugu!

I'm a fan of Trinidad in general, so maybe I'm biased in saying the Vigia is another exception, even though I believe they're still years away from being at their prime.

[RijkdeGooier]

By weight the new releases have been more expensive than regular older models.

Added to that is the extra premium for Cohiba and Montecristo. Then add to that the premium for RE, EL, R and GR.

 

There is a pattern here I believe

Que viven las Coronas, Robustos, Pyramides, Dalias and Prominentes!

[Fugu]

2 hours ago, zeedubbya said:

My original question arose based on the Connie A because I am in agreement with you Fugu.  IMO the Connie A is the only one which seems to justify the extra $.  Which is why I asked the question if it contained premium leaf.

Ok, I do get that. Yes, well the Connie A perhaps is one of those rare releases for which the "pure marketing" aspect holds the least.

2 hours ago, zeedubbya said:

 I don't feel the same way about Picadores at all.

Of course not, this is not at all positioned in the same "premium" segment like the ConA, as it is a "bargain" cigar at the moment. And other than the Connie A in need of some serious aging.

[Fugu]

2 hours ago, TheMonk said:

Agreed as well, the Connie A is one of the more recent releases that I feel is actually worth it, even though I don't think it's better then the SW. That is blasphemy, @Fugu!

Haha - no, no ! There is no such thing such as blasphemy when it comes to cigars. I am not somebody who is awestruck by names. Actually I had HU PCs that gave a Swinney a run for its money. Mind you - said by someone who is a long-time sucker for the SW!

At the moment, I see the Connie A as playing in the same league as the SW - with one difference, the Connie A being reliably good to exceptional, with it consistently being better made than the SW. If you check current production ('15 / '16), you'll see what I mean. But you are right of course, and I get what you are alluding to, Monk, as for SW you'd expect to get the top of the crop. Totally agree, when it's on it is a fantastic experience, hard to beat. So, it probably is not the merit of the ConA (alone), it is more the fault of the SW. And I am deeply disappointed of its more recent production.

 

2 hours ago, TheMonk said:

I'm a fan of Trinidad in general, so maybe I'm biased in saying the Vigia is another exception

If you ask me, the Trini Vigía the very archetype of a marketing cigar! Waaay overpriced. And in addition, this Verga Corta comes in a ridiculous fad-format. No thanks, will take a Reyes (actually almost two for the money) any day over the Trini Viagra.

[TheMonk]

With the risk of going a bit off topic here, I have to say I don't think the production of the SW has been subpar, or perhaps I've been lucky with my last box, from JAN 16. Although I do agree that, unlike the Connie A or even the Lusis, they seem to require some down time to be smoking beautifully, but I do feel they're gonna be brilliant in a few years.

[Fugu]

15 minutes ago, TheMonk said:

With the risk of going a bit off topic here, I have to say I don't think the production of the SW has been subpar, or perhaps I've been lucky with my last box, from JAN 16. Although I do agree that, unlike the Connie A or even the Lusis, they seem to require some down time to be smoking beautifully, but I do feel they're gonna be brilliant in a few years.

Lucky you!

[TheMonk]

3 hours ago, Fugu said:

Lucky you!

I guess! Or perhaps you were unlucky? Either way, I wouldn't give up, and I'd try a few more, if you've got the chance.

[luv2fly]

Folks, we all know that there bands on the cigar and stickers on the box makes it high dollar!!!!!

[Fugu]

11 hours ago, TheMonk said:

I guess! Or perhaps you were unlucky? Either way, I wouldn't give up, and I'd try a few more, if you've got the chance.

No, certainly not just unlucky. Perhaps to clarify Monk, I have seen > 10 boxes SW of '15 and '16 production and smoked different sticks from at least 4 boxes, as I am in search of another box to put aside (last complete boxes I bought are from 2014): Verdict - The tobacco is top quality, but it's the construction that is just too - I say unacceptably - variable for a premium stick of that price. It's a waste of good tobacco if rolled that way. In contrast to that, in the ConA I have yet to come across a construction flaw. That's the simple reason I prefer them ATM over the SW, as I don't want to take chances when buying a box. As I said in another thread, I am still buying SWs, but right now singles only that I've selected myself. A top-edge cigar like the Swinney one should be able to reliably buy blind (as has been the case in the past).

[Hurltim]

I need to try the Connie A. I haven't had much luck with HU's so far. I have a Mag 46, Mag 56 and a #2 chillin in the humi now.

Maybe they need more acclimation time. I will save them for last.

[BEVOSREVENGE]

30 minutes ago, Hurltim said:

I need to try the Connie A. I haven't had much luck with HU's so far. I have a Mag 46, Mag 56 and a #2 chillin in the humi now.

Maybe they need more acclimation time. I will save them for last.

Mag 46 with about 8 years of age on it is a life changer; for me, it is cigar nirvana. YMMV

Only smoked one Connie A - very young but think it has the makings of a fantastic smoke.

 

[TheMonk]

5 hours ago, Fugu said:

No, certainly not just unlucky. Perhaps to clarify Monk, I have seen > 10 boxes SW of '15 and '16 production and smoked different sticks from at least 4 boxes, as I am in search of another box to put aside (last complete boxes I bought are from 2014): Verdict - The tobacco is top quality, but it's the construction that is just too - I say unacceptably - variable for a premium stick of that price. It's a waste of good tobacco if rolled that way. In contrast to that, in the ConA I have yet to come across a construction flaw. That's the simple reason I prefer them ATM over the SW, as I don't want to take chances when buying a box. As I said in another thread, I am still buying SWs, but right now singles only that I've selected myself. A top-edge cigar like the Swinney one should be able to reliably buy blind (as has been the case in the past).

Well, in that case I may have been lucky with my 2016 box, but I'll definitely keep an eye out for future purchases. My last previous boxes were from 2014, and they've been fabulous so far!

[JohnS]

The Partagas Serie D6 and Montecristo Media Corona aren't bad for a short smoke, but I concur, I'm disappointed that they have a 20% markup in comparison to other similar staples such as the Montecristo No.5, Partagas Shorts and H.Upmann Half Corona. (Although, with Australian duties the price difference is less)

In the case of the Partagas Serie D6, they could've have done better with the packaging too, a plain wooden box of 20, with a marked up price, was never going to cut it. It's a shame, I really enjoyed them for a change-of-pace cigar.