NewAir 280 Coolers

[PigFish]

Hello my friends.

I understand many of you build humidors on this platform. It would appear (to me at least) that what these people sell as a working humidor does not actually work. I hate to be so blunt, but there you have it! It is also the source of the most common questions that I am asked about in correspondence. I just received yet another one this AM...

I know many of you are happy with your products and purchase of these, so for you simply ignore what I am going to ask. Operation of a humidor is in the eye of the beholder, I get that.

I am curious however. Many of you know that I convert wine coolers to humidors as a boutique business. And these, working or not are very popular.

So if I told you to trash the beads and all the guesswork in converting one of these, what would it be worth to you to get a project that actually worked?

Yes, this is a money question.

You see, I have never thought of these as a viable humidor, but honestly I have never bothered to try and convert one. Development costs me time and money and neither in my case are unlimited. If I sold a kit for one of these, one that really worked that I could prove within a reasonable tolerance, would any of you be interested in buying it?

And lastly, what would it be worth?

There is no right or wrong answer. I believe that I can develop this into a platform that can work within the realm of what performance a TE cooler can deliver. Will it work in my shop at 90F? No way, well, I doubt it. But will it work at ambients below 80F? Maybe, maybe high 70's... I don't know.

But the parts and the system cost money. And my development time and the cost of the materials including the cooler, something that I have no real interest in building for myself are real.

So what say you?

Thanks for helping me out... and don't be embarrassed to post. If it working is only worth $100.00 put it down. I want to know. If the concuss is that I can make money at it and get you guys that are log jammed happy it might be worth it for me to take the project on.

Cheers! -Piggy

[SloppyJ]

I'll be the first to bite!

 

I think your logic is right on point. Many people (myself included) run a 280 series Newair for cigar storage. A 281 to be specific. I don't know what it will cost you to design a system that is stable and does exactly what you want it to in a specified or variable conditions. I'm sure it's a lot of data logging and testing. That said, the cooler costs around $275. I spent around an extra $100 for beads and a good hydrometer. I think that's going to be your baseline. 

 

Obviously you are going to churn out something that is a little more active than beads (see what I did there?). If you could combine it as an "All in one" set with a hygrometer(s) and everything else so people had a plug and play option, I think you could ask around $200 for that setup. I'm not sure if that's the answer you were looking for but that's my opinion. If I saw a cooler that I bought and someone was asking for the same amount of money to make it function as I wanted, I would probably look elsewhere for what I needed. 

 

I will save you the same story you've heard over and over about how people get beads to work or fail, but If needed, I would volunteer to help do some R&D if you needed some testing done. Obviously it's going to boil down to if you can make any money doing it and how long it takes you to figure out the winning combination. Either way, good luck Piggy! 

[VipermanGT2]

I will say. I use BOVEDA in my NewAir. And it works wonderously. PigFish, why do you say they don't actually work. Maybe I need to hear the common mans physics behind it. I'm not sure. I feel as though mine is working great. 65-69% at 65 degrees. I could run it a little lower, but one of the flaw of these coolers, which I do agree, they have many flaws, is that the temp sensor is right next to the fan. I moved mine away from it. The problem I had running it cooler than 64 ish degrees was the condensation on the cooling fins. But I'd like to hear what your flaws with them are. 

[Bohn007]

I think that this is a great idea and perhaps you should explore a "basic" kit and then something more "deluxe" in nature. That way people would have a reasonably low entry point and for those that take storage a little more seriously, they would have that as an option. Just my two cents. 

[MahDooRow]

Pig: I think "false expectations" and "user error" are the primary factors that lead to the common problems people encounter with wineadors.  Include me among those who fell prey to both.  On the surface TE wineadors seem like an excellent cost-effective solution for storing cigars at temperatures that will mitigate risk of beetle infestation while at the same time eliminating the problem of low rH caused by compressors.  However, TE wineadors are open systems, and their successful use is greatly limited by the ambient conditions of the room in which they are stored.  I assume your conversion kit would be designed to transform the wineador from an open to a closed system in order to achieve control of the interior climate.  But as you state in your original post, the conversion kit would also have significant limitations.  It likely would not allow the wineador to function successfully if ambient temperatures were above 90F, or even above 80F... so the utility of the conversion kit (like the wineador itself) is also limited by the ambient temperatures of the room in which the wineador is stored.  I don't say any of this to dissuade you from offering a kit that would provide the user with more control over rH and airflow.  I actually think that such a kit would be quite useful... especially if the price of your kit is less than $200.  That being said, information about the "dos and don'ts" of wineador use is perhaps of more practical value.  If people had a better understanding of the limitations of wineadors, what they are capable of doing and not doing and why, that would go a long way towards helping wineador users achieve more successful outcomes.        

[Nattyboh74]

Hey Pig, what kit are they talking about? I seen the PDF link in the sticky but I clicked it and nothing...

[HoyoFan]

I run a NewAir CC-100, but I would say that if your setup could handle an ambient environment in the 80's, I'd be down to spend $100 bucks on it.

[PigFish]

On 10/3/2016 at 11:46 AM, PigFish said:

Hello my friends..

I know many of you are happy with your products and purchase of these, so for you simply ignore what I am going to ask. Operation of a humidor is in the eye of the beholder, I get that.

 

 

16 hours ago, VipermanGT2 said:

I will say. I use BOVEDA in my NewAir. And it works wonderously. PigFish, why do you say they don't actually work. Maybe I need to hear the common mans physics behind it. I'm not sure. I feel as though mine is working great. 65-69% at 65 degrees. I could run it a little lower, but one of the flaw of these coolers, which I do agree, they have many flaws, is that the temp sensor is right next to the fan. I moved mine away from it. The problem I had running it cooler than 64 ish degrees was the condensation on the cooling fins. But I'd like to hear what your flaws with them are. 

You don't need to hear anything from me my friend. I pitch contentment. And if you are content, you are done!

This thread is not about me telling you about the flaws... This thread is about many, many people contacting me asking me why they don't work, or have problems. I don't have any problem with them, I don't own one! 

When a viable solution to fixing some of these problems is, unplug it, well, lets say that in my opinion that is a problem... People are not unplugging my projects and that is the datum for which I make my case.

This thread is not about arguing with others about if their system works. It is about my assessment based on the data that see. It is not about explaining why I don't think they work beyond what I have already said.

If you are happy with your project there is no for you to feel otherwise!

Cheers! -Piggy

[VipermanGT2]

40 minutes ago, PigFish said:

 

You don't need to hear anything from me my friend. I pitch contentment. And if you are content, you are done!

This thread is not about me telling you about the flaws... This thread is about many, many people contacting me asking me why they don't work, or have problems. I don't have any problem with them, I don't own one! 

When a viable solution to fixing some of these problems is, unplug it, well, lets say that in my opinion that is a problem... People are not unplugging my projects and that is the datum for which I make my case.

This thread is not about arguing with others about if their system works. It is about my assessment based on the data that see. It is not about explaining why I don't think they work beyond what I have already said.

If you are happy with your project there is no for you to feel otherwise!

Cheers! -Piggy

Okay, no worries. Just wanted to expand my knowledge a little on the issues that people say they have. 

 

Take care! 

[backbone]

My TE cooler keeps the Temperature right around 70F with 76F ambient. 

I would be interested In a humidity device made for these newair coolers.  I have the bigger one.

I have conditioned beads to stay around 60Rh, but I have to add moisture every month or so.  I do this with an antimicrobial sponge with distilled water. 

Something more automated would be worth the money.

And BTW, I am one of the ones contacting Ray by email, he is awesome in his responses and willingness to be of help.  I really appreciate all the help you have given me over the past couple months.

[Fugu]

Piggy, please excuse me if I just chime in. Great idea and offer, but your pricing question seems be a bit tricky and is not as easily answered by the potential user / customer as you might think. You're virtually asking for them to make a crapshoot guess, without knowing much background and details. I can tell you, I am and have been in a similar situation a lot of times before in a different field. When it comes to customized solutions, users are very, very rarely appreciating your development work and time. They simply don't get it, they don't see it, they regularly undervalue it (and they prefer to best not pay for it...). All they see is parts and bits but not the brainwork that's coming with it to make it actually FUNCTION. What customers value is a bit of equipment that does the job for them and comes at the lowest possible price (sorry, not to offend anyone, but that's just how it goes).

So, I guess what you should rather do here, in order to get a half-realistic idea whether there is a broader interest by those Newair users, and to get this up and running, is come up with a few prelim. specifications, which you think you could realize based on said platform. Then provide a rough price estimate for your kit based on a run of a different number of units to be manufactured, e.g. let's say 20, 40 and 100 units (I'd guess starting below a prod. vol of 10 wouldn't make much sense here, as people going for the said Newair are aiming at the cheap solution. So you'd have to be extremely cost efficient, have to search the market for the best parts at the required low prices, and get your own lead costs spread over a maximum number of units to pay off in the end for the user as well as for yourself). Then you might be able to get some meaningful answers from people interested. Based on that, you could start collecting a group order for a first run. Make regular updates of the current numbers / prod volume, so you might draw in others to partake. Once you reach the necessary numbers, calculate your final pricing (based on the attained production volume), collect firm orders and start away with the project. If not, don't waste your time (and money) and stick with your generic projects.

This customization idea of yours is very much about production volume, as I see it, and to be frank, based on a number of a mere ~five units, I'd guess a 200-USD limit will be a quite challenging figure. This is not planned to be charitable work just to get all those emails off your back, is it? ....

Cheers
Goo

[backbone]

$100 doesn't buy you much in 2016!  I know it will be way in excess of this.

 

[PigFish]

4 hours ago, Fugu said:

Piggy, please excuse me if I just chime in. Great idea and offer, but your pricing question seems be a bit tricky and is not as easily answered by the potential user / customer as you might think. You're virtually asking for them to make a crapshoot guess, without knowing much background and details. I can tell you, I am and have been in a similar situation a lot of times before in a different field. When it comes to customized solutions, users are very, very rarely appreciating your development work and time. They simply don't get it, they don't see it, they regularly undervalue it (and they prefer to best not pay for it...). All they see is parts and bits but not the brainwork that's coming with it to make it actually FUNCTION. What customers value is a bit of equipment that does the job for them and comes at the lowest possible price (sorry, not to offend anyone, but that's just how it goes).

So, I guess what you should rather do here, in order to get a half-realistic idea whether there is a broader interest by those Newair users, and to get this up and running, is come up with a few prelim. specifications, which you think you could realize based on said platform. Then provide a rough price estimate for your kit based on a run of a different number of units to be manufactured, e.g. let's say 20, 40 and 100 units (I'd guess starting below a prod. vol of 10 wouldn't make much sense here, as people going for the said Newair are aiming at the cheap solution. So you'd have to be extremely cost efficient, have to search the market for the best parts at the required low prices, and get your own lead costs spread over a maximum number of units to pay off in the end for the user as well as for yourself). Then you might be able to get some meaningful answers from people interested. Based on that, you could start collecting a group order for a first run. Make regular updates of the current numbers / prod volume, so you might draw in others to partake. Once you reach the necessary numbers, calculate your final pricing (based on the attained production volume), collect firm orders and start away with the project. If not, don't waste your time (and money) and stick with your generic projects.

This customization idea of yours is very much about production volume, as I see it, and to be frank, based on a number of a mere ~five units, I'd guess a 200-USD limit will be a quite challenging figure. This is not planned to be charitable work just to get all those emails off your back, is it? ....

Cheers
Goo

I want to let the thread play-out on the path that I have set Goo but appreciate your input. I have written a response but chose not to post it yet as I figure it will taint the pool of opinions and I don't wish to do that.

Cheers! -Piggy

[Fugu]

10 hours ago, PigFish said:

I want to let the thread play-out on the path that I have set Goo but appreciate your input. I have written a response but chose not to post it yet as I figure it will taint the pool of opinions and I don't wish to do that.

Cheers! -Piggy

Yup, understandable!

[zeedubbya]

This thread just kind of died and I would like to see it revived again.  I have a little unplugged Newair and have been talking to another member here about setting it up to have a couple drawers in it for singles storage.  I am thinking Humidity and Temprature Mod to this thing would be well north of $500, but I wouldn't spend that on this mod for it.  Would I spend that much for my larger wood boxes---for sure, but not for my little Newair.  So what would I pay for it to have perfect temp and humidity control?  Hmmm....$250 would be my absolute upper limit for this.  And I would have to think about that.  I'm certain that wouldn't get it done but there it is.  

What I would really like to see this thing (and maybe my other Humidors) do is be able to change it's temperature relative to the humidity or vise versa.  To keep the moisture content in line. I am assuming humidity is easier to change.  Example--when my basement temp drops to 60 degrees in the winter I would like for my humidors to move the humidity to the "correct" level to achieve my preferred PMC.  Not to get off on a different tangent here Ray but why can't this be the goal?  I assume you could build a system to automate this a lot cheaper than a system to control both?  Does that make any sense or is it a dumb suggestion?

[fabes]

This is an interesting thread. Z, I'm curious why you would drop the loot for the larger wooden boxes, but not for the Newair in question. Is it just because of the larger storage? From what I gather, the reason to avoid a wooden container for storage/humidor is because now you have to try to control an additional variable. The sealed container/box/newair eschews that problem. 

And correct me if I'm wrong, but the link of temp-to-humidy necessitates mitigating both variables, which seems like that 4-point control system is our best (or most complete?) option. Temp is controlled for a set point neither veering too far up nor down & same goes for humidity. 

Everyone is responsible for determining what needs/desires/madness they have for storage. I would agree with Goo that a bulk of the costs are in the unseen. Those familiar with crafting nice things from scratch are probably familiar with that and appreciate to some extent the costs associated. 

I'm very enticed with the idea of a super stable environment for my cigars for many reasons. I like to see things progress and get better and think there is always room for improvement. The problem I have with a kit is that I would want to build it. A complete kit that is similar to a lego set that is 90% constructed is kind of a bummer for me. Which I know goes against what Ray is proposing and likely does already. It's entirely personal. I would however be into a highly unassembled kit. I guess it boils down to the ratio of parts/knowledge I'm paying for. If the kit costs $500 and is $250 parts & $250 knowledge and design, that is understandable. If the kit is $500 and is $100 parts and $400 knowledge and design that is a harder pill for me to swallow.  Just some quick thoughts on the matter. 

[zeedubbya]

7 hours ago, fabes said:

This is an interesting thread. Z, I'm curious why you would drop the loot for the larger wooden boxes, but not for the Newair in question. Is it just because of the larger storage?

Yes that is the only reason, guess I didn't explain that part correctly.  I would trade all 3 of my wooden cabinets for one wine cooler which keeps the climate perfect.  If I had a 30 Cu Foot Wine Cooler I would pay quite a bit more for the perfect environment.  Probably up to about $1,000.  Although I think there is a certain classically elegant thing with cedar I realize it's not the best for maintaining the perfect environment.  

[PigFish]

9 hours ago, fabes said:

This is an interesting thread. Z, I'm curious why you would drop the loot for the larger wooden boxes, but not for the Newair in question. Is it just because of the larger storage? From what I gather, the reason to avoid a wooden container for storage/humidor is because now you have to try to control an additional variable. The sealed container/box/newair eschews that problem. 

And correct me if I'm wrong, but the link of temp-to-humidy necessitates mitigating both variables, which seems like that 4-point control system is our best (or most complete?) option. Temp is controlled for a set point neither veering too far up nor down & same goes for humidity. 

Everyone is responsible for determining what needs/desires/madness they have for storage. I would agree with Goo that a bulk of the costs are in the unseen. Those familiar with crafting nice things from scratch are probably familiar with that and appreciate to some extent the costs associated. 

I'm very enticed with the idea of a super stable environment for my cigars for many reasons. I like to see things progress and get better and think there is always room for improvement. The problem I have with a kit is that I would want to build it. A complete kit that is similar to a lego set that is 90% constructed is kind of a bummer for me. Which I know goes against what Ray is proposing and likely does already. It's entirely personal. I would however be into a highly unassembled kit. I guess it boils down to the ratio of parts/knowledge I'm paying for. If the kit costs $500 and is $250 parts & $250 knowledge and design, that is understandable. If the kit is $500 and is $100 parts and $400 knowledge and design that is a harder pill for me to swallow.  Just some quick thoughts on the matter. 

This was very interesting reading... thanks for posting.

My market approach is flawed in many ways (as I see it). But the marketing model was somewhat multifold. First, I wanted to build a truly controlled humidor, not an accidentally controlled humidor. I will post a data log that I posted a month or so ago (again) for some clarity. This means that one can, on a given day, can decide that his cigars are too wet, or too dry and change it. The cigars of course will lag the settings (hysteresis) but he/she will know that a correction is on the way, verses guessing if it is on the way. This is how I have kept cigars for the better part of a decade now. While it may not be everyones 'bag of chips' it is mine! I simply don't guess and hope anymore. It is quite liberating!

It needs to really work! It needs to be proven to work! It needs to be cooled, because high temperature control is important to me. It needs to be stable, actually much more stable than the hysteresis of the cigar itself requires. It needs to handle deltas more than single digits... It needs to have a market draw, other than superior performance (price). It needs to be built around an efficient existing market model (the wine cooler).

Shipping a wine cooler (a second time) is a really stupid idea! I mean why would I want to spend a huge amount of money packaging and shipping something already available (perhaps with free shipping) to one destination already? Again, the existing wine cooler market is efficient now, why would I want to charge it and make it more complex? Well, the answer is that maybe I would sell more!!! I don't really care if I sell more or not... -LOL I am already busy.

I want to use the efficiently pre-made wine cooler. I don't want to ship it. I don't want to warrantee it (I did not make it, and I am not geared up for that). So that the kit is the only really viable alternative to my model.

What else did I consider? Well, price! I wanted to be 'cheaper than XXX.' I often write in emails to customers that the the goal was 'better than XXX and cheaper than XXX.' I think I have achieved that goal.

The kit idea rules out a lot of people. They're afraid to make it. This is why the above post is refreshing. A true kit, would be cool as well, but I don't think I would ever sell one. A real true DiY guy is going to do what many of you are doing with wine coolers now. There is a huge "budget" gap then, between the real DiY guy (rhetorically) and one that fits my mould. I think that this thread is actual evidence of that and @fabes is really a great example. From what I can speculate he ( @fabes) wants what I have but has one or more reasons not to buy it, some of which he indicates above.

From my experience, many people just don't want to spend the kind of money that I charge to store cigars. The money separates those who might like it, verses really need it. The guy who is tired of spending an extra $500 a month to cool his home, and makes his wife wear a sweater during the summer time, he is a guy that needs my kit... The guy who says my cigars become mush and garbage from high rH by the mid-summer, he is another guy who needs my kit... I just do some things that other builders don't do!

My problem with the Fabes model is this. I cannot afford the documentation and support that his model would require. And I have to laugh some (at myself) in that if you ask a custom of mine they will likely tell you, I hate paperwork! I used to do it for a living and I cannot stand it! I have had instruction sets from PDFs to powerpoint and they take me a ton of time... I would rather spend an hour on the phone 5 days in a row with a customer addressing questions than write a damned instruction set...! -LOL You see, I get the questions anyway, instruction set or no instruction set. Now, I make low budget videos... -LOL My customers, if I had to speak for them, would likely say my instructions suck, but my support is second to none, and even entertaining and educational.

My goal is a successful project. I cannot take a guys money and let them fail... It is just not me! I therefore cannot sell 1K worth of parts in a box and say 'good luck with that.' "You know you bought a kit, right?" It does not fit the goal. Knowing myself quite well, I understand that I will then spend 1K worth of my time 'explaining' the kit.... anyway!!! And that "I" cannot afford.

The real fact of the matter is, I don't even want to sell parts to a guy that fails... I don't want failure on my record, not at all... That is just me.

Let me read some more of the posts above and I will continue. -P

[Blazer]

I missed this thread the first time around. So as a new, and frustrated, owner of a 281E cooler I would be interested in some type of plug and play system that would get me to the mythical 65/65. That being said, I believe I have read here previously that my set-up (5 drawers & a shelf) is part of the problem due to the blockage of air flow. So your system would need to work in my environment for it to be of any value to me. So what would that value be? On a $250 cooler, for the piece of mind that I could get to 65/65 I would pay $165.32. 

[Hurltim]

Ok, for good or bad, I will chime in. I have a 280 newair. I have been doing a bunch of research for my large, cabinet humidor and I have a plan on how I want to go about it but I have realized a few things along the way.

An important caveat: You arent going to get Piggys absolute control of rH and temp without a serious investment of $400 bucks or so and more imporantly, an investment of HUMIDOR SPACE.
We typically look to wineadors for a few reasons but in the end-- you can store close to 400 cigars (typically--but not really in my experience) for around a 200-400 dollar investment with the added bonus of moderate cooling. Go look at classic style humidors that hold the same amount of cigars and the price is substantially higher for the same amount of storage.

1) YOUR NEEDS--This must be determined prior to any investment. Do you have a non-controlled ambient environment? Do you have high humidity? Low humidity? If you live in a part of the world where 40-70% rH is typical and you have central air/heat, you aren't going to need a lot to get it to work within reason. Beads or KL and you are in buidness. If you live in say Florida with high temps AND humidity...you have a completely different set of problems--The primary one being de-humidification.
2) Dehumidification--This is perhaps the biggest hurdle to full control of Humidity and Temp. You have 2 choices: A desiccant style Dehumidification process or a refrigerated, evaporator style. If you want to use a compressor style Dehumidification process then the 280 is not an option. With a desiccant style, you will need some type of closed system(flap valves, etc) so that it only absorbs moisture when it is active or it will continue to absorb moisture until it stabilizes with its environment.
I have been looking into using the compressor element from small dehumidifiers. You can pick up used ones for around 40 bucks used and most compressors last a good long while. You would need far less than 1,000 btu for cooling and I would imagine these dehumidifiers would fit the bill.
3) Space-- Any way you slice it, you have to cough up valuable humidor space for these items. If you can manage to heat, cool, humidify and dehumidify in the bottom shelf space of a 280, you would have a winner. Getting all 4 processes in that little space would be a feat.
4) Circulation--Boxes block holes. A three stack of singles impedes air flow. Sooner or later you will need to sacrifice storage space for some type of circulation/ventilation system.

In the end, MHO is the 280 simply does not have enough storage space to sacrifice for control. If you are willing to have external controls or you don't need Dehumidification, then I think it's doable.

There are a lot of hurdles and it would make an interesting project for sure, I am just not convinced the 280 is the best model to use. Something with larger storage so you can sacrifice the storage and still have enough for boxes. I think the 50 bottle ones are still too small for the investment. Again JMHO.

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[Sean3]

Mr. Piggy:  I'd peg the upper limit of a Pigg/NewAir 280 at $600USD.  From the comsumer side, SPACE is a mitigating factor relative to price IMHO.  Keep in mind that I am wealth challenged, and while I will pay a premium for quality product...I need to be able to store an ample amount of boxes in order to realize it's value.  Hope this helps your assessment.  Cheers.

[strikethebox7]

Piggy, I think this is a great thread and applaud your effort in trying to come up with a system that just plain works. I am currently in the market for more storage as the hobby has grown outside my 3 desktop humidors. The frustration of tight seals and varying humidity is the down side of cigars. After reading so many of your threads I know realize that a perfect system is very difficult to obtain. I do agree an affordable plug and play system would be an excellent option for those that need help in keeping consistent temp and humidity control. As far as price goes, it is a difficult question. On one hand we spend so much on r sticks so how can you say do dont want to spend big bucks on keeping them in perfect condition. The other hand the units already carry a steep price. I would have to say all said and done 400-500 for the perfect set up is completely worth it. Keep up with the strong work. Anxiously awaiting the verdict. Would love to see an affordable consistent option out there for all of us!


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[seattledude]

In my current situation I would pay $300-400 for conversion kit if it will give me complete control over the RH of Cigars that will be stored in there.

(I dont have NewAir-280, but would buy one if conversion would be available for purchase)

I dont know if it is realistic or not. 

 

[Cep]

I would be willing to pay pretty much anything (with reason ;))

Actually I was thinking about talking to you in the future about your products before I saw this thread.

 

[ncardw]

Did you come up with anything as far as a kit @PigFish ?