Made Mistake and Humidity Again

[PigFish]

Brandon, you are so damn close man... I mean if you could just get that ambient down to 79.688, you would be home-free.

So, here is an idea. Any two lane highways near you? Good!

Get out there on the double yellow and wait for two semi trucks to come at you head to head. At about 73 yards, light the cigar and as the two semis pass you, the air compression should effectively reduce the rH to an acceptable amount.

Beyond that, the "buzz" factor of the cigar becomes audible and the head 'spin,' simply phenomenal...

Oh, and get me a video review!!! -LOL -R

[Hurltim]

On 10/4/2016 at 0:47 PM, wd123 said:

Can I ask you how you get the humidity down that low? It's my understanding that I would need Boveda that are lower than 60 in order to get there. What should I buy to get it there? 

IIRC according to several Piggy posts on the subject, the beads are "preconditioned" to a set RH but that is not fixed. It's a bit of sale BS. If you want them to hold at a lower rH, just dry them out a bit like @MahDooRow does. 

I use crappy KL. When my rH drops a bit, I just insert a cup of water until it raises to where I want it to be then take it out. If I forget to take it out, it usually levels off at about 64%. I can live with that--for now. My rH fluctuates mainly due to temp swings during the day. I really need a heater right now. In a few weeks we will turn the heat on then I can shut off the wineador. That of course means I need some air circulation...and down the slippery slope of climate control I go...

[MahDooRow]

20 minutes ago, Hurltim said:

IIRC according to several Piggy posts on the subject, the beads are "preconditioned" to a set RH but that is not fixed. It's a bit of sale BS. If you want them to hold at a lower rH, just dry them out a bit like @MahDooRow does. 

I use crappy KL. When my rH drops a bit, I just insert a cup of water until it raises to where I want it to be then take it out. If I forget to take it out, it usually levels off at about 64%. I can live with that--for now. My rH fluctuates mainly due to temp swings during the day. I really need a heater right now. In a few weeks we will turn the heat on then I can shut off the wineador. That of course means I need some air circulation...and down the slippery slope of climate control I go...

Even when the wineador is on the air circulation is pretty anemic.  This is not necessarily a bad thing if your temp. and rH are equalized throughout the interior space.  I'd personally err on the side of less air movement, as too much circulation can be problematic.  I use a Xikar fan that comes on for 15 seconds every 15 minutes, and to be honest it doesn't move much air at all.  It's far from an ideal solution, but I've not found anything better.  Most fans are either too big and too strong or too small and too weak (the Xikar being on the small and weak end of the spectrum).  There are some fans of the right size that provide more appropriate levels of circulation, but they do not run on batteries and require external power.  To date I haven't figured out a good way to run a wire for external power into my wineador.  Anyway, my main point is that too much air movement may be worse than too little air movement.       

[Hurltim]

13 minutes ago, MahDooRow said:

Even when the wineador is on the air circulation is pretty anemic.  This is not necessarily a bad thing if your temp. and rH are equalized throughout the interior space.  I'd personally err on the side of less air movement, as too much circulation can be problematic.  I use a Xikar fan that comes on for 15 seconds every 15 minutes, and to be honest it doesn't move much air at all.  It's far from an ideal solution, but I've not found anything better.  Most fans are either too big and too strong or too small and too weak (the Xikar being on the small and weak end of the spectrum).  There are some fans of the right size that provide more appropriate levels of circulation, but they do not run on batteries and require external power.  To date I haven't figured out a good way to run a wire for external power into my wineador.  Anyway, my main point is that too much air movement may be worse than too little air movement.       

Agreed. I keep slipping down the climate control slope. 

"Well, if I am getting fans, I need a power supply I may as well get a heater. Since I am getting a heater, I may as well get a programmable logic controller..." lol!

  At the bottom of that hill is Piggy. Juuuuust waiting...

Seriously though, you start researching this stuff, you quickly realize how much work @PigFish has done.

I like the xikar fan idea. It's a good solution for now until I get the big one built. Space is a much bigger issue. At the rate I am buying boxes, i will be out of space by Xmas at the latest.

[MahDooRow]

1 minute ago, Hurltim said:

Agreed. I keep slipping down the climate control slope. 

"Well, if I am getting fans, I need a power supply I may as well get a heater. Since I am getting a heater, I may as well get a lohic controller..." lol!

  At the bottom of that hill is Piggy. Juuuuust waiting...

Seriously though, you start researching this stuff, you quickly realize how much work @PigFish has done.

I like the xikar fan idea. It's a good solution for now until I get the big one built. Space is a much bigger issue. At the rate I am buying boxes, i will be out of space by Xmas at the latest.

There are many slippery slopes with this hobby, but I enjoy it.  Research can be endless and it can sometimes twist you into knots.  The Pig has definitely put in a lot of work and is more than willing to share his experience.  I have to applaud his focus on collection of data and data-driven decisions.  As someone who comes from a research background I can appreciate his paradigm.     

My NewAir 281-E was filled in less than 6 months and I was contemplating purchasing a 2nd.  However, I decided the better course (for me) was to open a locker via the FOH Online Humidor Service (OHS).  FOH's warehouse is climate controlled at a steady 65F / 65rH and all stock is fully insured against damage and/or loss.  As I smoke through my boxes and space in the wineador opens up I can have boxes shipped as I need them.

[Hurltim]

I love researching technical DIY type projects so it totally trips that trigger in my grape. I can hold off until we turn the heat on and then things will level out temp-wise. I am pretty handy with wood so a larger, insulated, climate controlled humidor is in the works. Hopefully, I will have it completed in a workable form by the time we shut the heat off in the spring. This time of year we see 40 degree daily swings between highs and lows. In the house it's not that bad but it definitely impacts the temp in the wineador. 

[PigFish]

3 hours ago, MahDooRow said:

Even when the wineador is on the air circulation is pretty anemic.  This is not necessarily a bad thing if your temp. and rH are equalized throughout the interior space.  I'd personally err on the side of less air movement, as too much circulation can be problematic.  I use a Xikar fan that comes on for 15 seconds every 15 minutes, and to be honest it doesn't move much air at all.  It's far from an ideal solution, but I've not found anything better.  Most fans are either too big and too strong or too small and too weak (the Xikar being on the small and weak end of the spectrum).  There are some fans of the right size that provide more appropriate levels of circulation, but they do not run on batteries and require external power.  To date I haven't figured out a good way to run a wire for external power into my wineador.  Anyway, my main point is that too much air movement may be worse than too little air movement.       

... gotta' take issue with this mate...! Air and water molecules are constantly colliding and bombarding your cigars. Please tell me, how is air circulation bad for cigars? I am not saying that you are not entitled to an opinion, but how is circulation problematic??? It is only problematic to those with little or no engineering and analytical skills.

Let me tell you mate, lack of circulation in a active controlled humidor is the real problem. All you need to do is look at the problems 'improved' by the removal of shelves in Padronfans humidor to prove the point.

Circulation being 'bad' for cigars is a myth. There is no proof... Circulation being good for humidor control is a fact, and it can be proven with a data logger. Me, I will take the proven benefit over the mythical detriment any day.

Cheers! -the Pig

[PigFish]

3 hours ago, Hurltim said:

Agreed. I keep slipping down the climate control slope. 

"Well, if I am getting fans, I need a power supply I may as well get a heater. Since I am getting a heater, I may as well get a programmable logic controller..." lol!

  At the bottom of that hill is Piggy. Juuuuust waiting...

Seriously though, you start researching this stuff, you quickly realize how much work @PigFish has done.

I like the xikar fan idea. It's a good solution for now until I get the big one built. Space is a much bigger issue. At the rate I am buying boxes, i will be out of space by Xmas at the latest.

...correction. I live at the top of a hill. Shit, and poorly kept cigars roll downhill!!! -LOL -P

[MahDooRow]

1 hour ago, PigFish said:

... gotta' take issue with this mate...! Air and water molecules are constantly colliding and bombarding your cigars. Please tell me, how is air circulation bad for cigars? I am not saying that you are not entitled to an opinion, but how is circulation problematic??? It is only problematic to those with little or no engineering and analytical skills.

Let me tell you mate, lack of circulation in a active controlled humidor is the real problem. All you need to do is look at the problems 'improved' by the removal of shelves in Padronfans humidor to prove the point.

Circulation being 'bad' for cigars is a myth. There is no proof... Circulation being good for humidor control is a fact, and it can be proven with a data logger. Me, I will take the proven benefit over the mythical detriment any day.

Cheers! -the Pig

Piggy:  My comment regarding circulation was relative, not absolute.  I agree that gentle circulation for short intervals is always a very good thing (for short or long term storage).  However, if I was given the choice between little to no air circulation and too much air circulation I'd choose the former (assuming my temp. and rH were equalized throughout the humidor).  IMO (and it's just my opinion), temperature and rH levels take a higher priority.   

[Hurltim]

1 hour ago, PigFish said:

...correction. I live at the top of a hill. Shit, and poorly kept cigars roll downhill!!! -LOL -P

Bwahahaha!!!!

[scap99]

54 minutes ago, MahDooRow said:

Piggy:  My comment regarding circulation was relative, not absolute.  I agree that gentle circulation for short intervals is always a very good thing (for short or long term storage).  However, if I was given the choice between little to no air circulation and too much air circulation I'd choose the former (assuming my temp. and rH were equalized throughout the humidor).  IMO (and it's just my opinion), temperature and rH levels take a higher priority.   

 

What would be considered too much air circulation?  Also, what is the negative effect of too much air circulation?

 

[MahDooRow]

28 minutes ago, scap99 said:

 

What would be considered too much air circulation?  Also, what is the negative effect of too much air circulation?

 

My cigars have never suffered the ill effects of too much air circulation, but some contend that too much air circulation leads to mold and moisture issues.  There is also the possibility that your cigars can swell and crack if your rH is on the high end of the spectrum.  On the flip side, total lack of circulation can cause your sticks to be too dry or too wet (also dependent on your rH level).  Ideally you want gentle, periodic circulation of air... just enough to prevent stagnation.   

[PigFish]

41 minutes ago, MahDooRow said:

My cigars have never suffered the ill effects of too much air circulation, but some contend that too much air circulation leads to mold and moisture issues.  There is also the possibility that your cigars can swell and crack if your rH is on the high end of the spectrum.  On the flip side, total lack of circulation can cause your sticks to be too dry or too wet (also dependent on your rH level).  Ideally you want gentle, periodic circulation of air... just enough to prevent stagnation.   

I am not really interest in what 'some contend' but do insist that 'any that contend' are wrong about this contention. Is this what you contend?

So how exactly does 60rH water content at 70F in 0, 10, 25 or 50 cfm airflow lead to moldy cigars? Are we not confusing water content with airflow here? Are you contending that the EMC of cigars will be different in cigars stored in a stable environment were the air movement is the only variable?

Airflow, water vapor flow (as in aerodynamics) are linked as water vapor is apart of 'room air.' Water content however, is independent of airflow as the movement of air has nothing to do with the content of air in this context. Perhaps in a discussion of the lift capability of an airfoil, water content certainly has an effect on that... but linking ranging equilibrium moisture content of tobacco in an iso-equilibrium environment to the movement of the water in the air that supports the state is not at all rational.

How you link airflow here to water content and mold is beyond me, but feel free to believe what you want. I am making an argument to the broader audience.

-Piggy

[Bohn007]

16 minutes ago, PigFish said:

Friends don't let friends smoke EL's. They are the McRib sandwich of the Habanos world!

I am sorry but just as I like a greasy cheeseburger once in a while and a hot dog with chili on it, I do like that once a year McRib. 

[MahDooRow]

10 minutes ago, PigFish said:

I am not really interest in what 'some contend' but do insist that 'any that contend' are wrong about this contention. Is this what you contend?

So how exactly does 60rH water content at 70F in 0, 10, 25 or 50 cfm airflow lead to moldy cigars? Are we not confusing water content with airflow here? Are you contending that the EMC of cigars will be different in cigars stored in a stable environment were the air movement is the only variable?

Airflow, water vapor flow (as in aerodynamics) are linked as water vapor is apart of 'room air.' Water content however, is independent of airflow as the movement of air has nothing to do with the content of air in this context. Perhaps in a discussion of the lift capability of an airfoil, water content certainly has an effect on that... but linking ranging equilibrium moisture content of tobacco in an iso-equilibrium environment to the movement of the water in the air that supports the state is not at all rational.

How you link airflow here to water content and mold is beyond me, but feel free to believe what you want. I am making an argument to the broader audience.

-Piggy

You seem to be going out of your way to pick a fight and I'm not interested in battling with you.  Take a chill pill.  Read what I wrote, not what you choose to infer from what I wrote.

I have been very clear that gentle, periodic air circulation is a good thing.  On that point I think we agree.  With regard to the issue of "too much circulation" I clearly stated that I've never experienced the ill effects of too much circulation, nor did I claim any responsibility or belief in what others contend.  I was simply trying to respond the question that was posed to me by providing some anecdotal info.  Nothing more, nothing less.    

[Fugu]

1 hour ago, MahDooRow said:

My cigars have never suffered the ill effects of too much air circulation, but some contend that too much air circulation leads to mold and moisture issues.  There is also the possibility that your cigars can swell and crack if your rH is on the high end of the spectrum.  On the flip side, total lack of circulation can cause your sticks to be too dry or too wet (also dependent on your rH level).  Ideally you want gentle, periodic circulation of air... just enough to prevent stagnation.   

You are 'mixing' up things..... You can have high circulation of dry air as well as of moist air. The effects you are describing don't go along with any gradation in circulation velocities. At high "wind" speeds it may become detrimental at some point as you might get wind chill effects on sensors, but apart from that....

[MahDooRow]

1 minute ago, Fugu said:

You are 'mixing' up things..... You can have high circulation of dry air as well as of moist air. The effects you are describing don't go along with any gradation in circulation velocities. At high "wind" speeds it may become detrimental at some point as you might get wind chill effects on sensors, but apart from that....

I'm not mixing anything up.  If you are circulating air with too much humidity it can exacerbate the ill effects of an environment with high rH.  The opposite goes for circulation of air that is too dry.  Ideally you want gentle circulation of air that is at proper temperature and proper rH.  Are you happy now?   

[Fugu]

Yes I am happy (mostly), but that, too, is pretty independent of airflow.

Mate, you were first insinuating about airflow in absolute terms, not speaking of humidity. But anyway, too dry a storage or too moist a storage environment, a higher airflow will never amplify the ill effects of it. Problem will always be the wrong moisture in the first place. And that is more often than not the effect of stagnation and air stratification.

[scap99]

I'm not happy until there's blood and guts. Lol

 

Seriously, I do appreciate the back and forth as it gets my brain working on the ins and outs.  I'm hoping to have a cabinet by the end of the year, so then I can be driven truly mad by analysis paralysis.

[PigFish]

I am not looking to pick a fight with you mate... we are speaking aloud to an audience, and frankly you are confusing me and others, Goo as an example.

My reading comprehension is quite good so when you 'assume that I am picking a fight' can I ask you to please look in the mirror before making that statement?

You my friend have made a clear assumption about my behavior, and that is of course your right, but it is an incorrect assumption. "I" made a logical response to something that requires no assumption, and I quote, 

1 hour ago, MahDooRow said:

some contend that too much air circulation leads to mold and moisture issues

... which if frankly wrong!

I asked you, do you believe this? And if so, I gave a rebuttal (to any that do).

If you are upset, that is your prerogative but don't project it on me and accuse me of it, please! If you wish we can certainly add each other to the list of people we ignore... Projecting onto me will get you on my list certainly!

The ball is back in your court.

Cheers! -Piggy

 

[PigFish]

5 minutes ago, Fugu said:

Yes I am happy (mostly), but that, too, is pretty independent of airflow.

Mate, you were first insinuating about airflow in absolute terms, not speaking of humidity. But anyway, too dry a storage or too moist a storage environment, a higher airflow will never amplify the ill effects of it. Problem will always be the wrong moisture in the first place. And that is more often than not the effect of stagnation and air stratification.

Here is where I believe some clarification can be made Gooey! An increase in airflow will decrease the time to equilibrium in situations where a delta T or delta rH exist. I believe that some of this may have been Dooey's point while 'rate of change' was never really noted by me in the conversation. One need only examine a fan mounted to a radiator to affirm this. The term 'amplify' is a good word assuming it means the end result in EMC and not the rate of change!

Again, I am speaking to a larger audience for the sake of clarification.

Cheers! -P

[Fugu]

You mean a situation where you put a dried out box into a humidor with high velocity air circulation (high volumetric airflow t. b. precise), making the wrappers wrinkle and tear, while they absorb moisture too rapidly? Perhaps, not sure, no idea - could be it.

But then again, the dried out box is not the fault of the circulation system, is it? You could - and should - always subject it to a 'special' treatment anyway with shallow deltas and slow equilibration, before adding it to the humidor.

[Hurltim]

OK, lets attack this from a different perspective. Circulation, in a SEALED environment would have a net impact of zero on moisture loss in the cigars regardless of velocity or frequency. If you put a 100 MPH fan blowing 65% rH air over the cigar and you kept your cigars at 65% in a sealed environment, your sum loss would be zero--other than the cigars that blew into the next county. 

In a non-sealed environment where you are taking sub 65% rH air and evacuating that sub 65% air, at 100 mph, if your cigars were still there, yeah you would see an increase in the evaporation rate--to an extent. Evaporation Rate in concrete construction, particularly bridge decks is of particular concern. Enough free water must be available to the concrete to allow it to cure properly and not cause shrinkage cracks. Wind speed is a small part of the equation but a part nonetheless. Speculation: Given that cigars are hygroscopic in nature and seek to be in balance with it's environment's rH, then I can't imagine there would be much loss for that long of a time unless you are blowing hot, dry air across them on a regular basis.

As for mold, circulation of any kind COULD spread mold provided that the mold was advanced enough to create spores. If that was the case, ANY circulation would be blowing spores all over the place.

There are certainly quite a few wives tales in the cigar hobby. JMO

 

[Fugu]

I think, we can boil it down to - rapid air circulation in a poorly controlled environment can be a bad thing.

[MahDooRow]

3 minutes ago, Fugu said:

I think, we can boil it down on - rapid air circulation in a poorly controlled environment can be a bad thing.

Agreed.  Let's leave it at that.  Have a nice evening gents.