a case of Loose and Firm draws

[godpheonix]

A few nights ago i sat down to watch a few episodes of Stranger Things from Netflix ( great show!) and of course had a few cigars. first one was a Trini Robusto T from 2010. when i did a cold draw, it was very loose...i mean you could almost compare it to sucking on a straw!! anyway i lit it up reminding myself to take fewer puffs to let it cool before taking the next one. this helped a bit but even doing that the smoke was just ok. you just couldn't get those nuance flavors because it still burned to hot even taking fewer draws. i still was able to smoke 3\4 of it before putting it to rest.

Now i was really looking forward to my second cigar, a SCLH Mercaderes from 2007! but when i took a cold draw on that one it was really firm! so firm that my first thought woulls be that i'd have to pitch it! anyway, once lit thought, i was surprised that it was actually drawing, firm and had to work at it a bit but still ok. and to my surprise the cigar was actually full of flavors! i could get so much nuance flavors because of the firm draw...the cigar just stayed cool all the way through. pure cake and sweet nuance flavors that just got deeper as i smoked through it. amazing really! great cigar.

Quite an experience from opposite ends!  Anyone else have a similar experience ?

 

Steve 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[joeypots]

The Trini Robusto Ts I had were terrible, loose cigars. 

[GavLew79]

I have a box of ULA MAR 14 BRC that are wind tunnels and taste awful. I have ULA OCT 14 BRC that are tight and taste great. 

Whether it's a filler to wrapper ratio or just crap rolling, I can't quite tell. 

[JZBdano]

I have a couple boxes of LUB MAY 14 H Upmann petit corona, one box is on the firm side and the flavors are much more intense (mongrel) than the other box I have sampled.  I will let the firm box rest for several years to see if it mellows out a bit. 

I smoked an 07 Mercaderes yesterday and I agree with you, amazing cigar.   Draw was on the firmer side so I V cut it after the initial guillotine cut and it helped.

[Smallclub]

There is a reason the tight draw is called "the cuban draw" in many countries.

[Fugu]

Always prefer a snug/tight over a loose draw (from a burn-perspective anyway). And for my standards, I rarely come across a truly plugged cigar - but, hey, I am a sucker anyway...

...ahh, and agree reg. the Mercaderes!

[SloppyJ]

I too prefer a tighter draw. In my limited experience, I've had one plugged PDS4 tubo that was plugged beyond repair. I've found that my BBFs are consistently perfect for my taste in draw and that my JL2s are on the tighter edge of what I like. Monte 2s are a little loose for me and most of the time Monte 4s are just right. That's just my experience though. 

[Bohn007]

4 hours ago, joeypots said:

The Trini Robusto Ts I had were terrible, loose cigars. 

I almost bought some the other day but settled for the Trinidad Robusto Extras instead. So glad that I did. 

[Notsocleaver]

Ya'll can send your wind tunnels this way and keep your lovely 2000 vintage flor de la tent pegs for yourselves. For every cigar I have had that was too loose to enjoy I have had 10 that were too tight. When I notice a box is tending to be a little too loose, I just use a smaller cut and usually its fine. Tight cigars mean reaching for a draw tool every 15 minutes. fighting to get enough draw to produce smoke kills the fun for me. I don't get why some many of you enjoy it.

[Fugu]

1 hour ago, Notsocleaver said:

When I notice a box is tending to be a little too loose, I just use a smaller cut and usually its fine.

The cut has no influence on the poor burn of a loosely rolled cigar. I use to call that draw-mocking.

[cashews39]

I'll take a loose draw over a firm one any day. With loose I can slow down and enjoy it, with a draw that's too firm I find the best remedy is to toss it. 

[Smallclub]

1 hour ago, Notsocleaver said:

 fighting to get enough draw to produce smoke kills the fun for me. I don't get why some many of you enjoy it.

Because you don't get what we're talking about. A resistant draw doesn't mean a difficult draw. And your remark about 2000 tent pegs is unpleasant and derogatory. Enjoy your underfilled harsh hot smoking turds.

[ElPuro]

Fight, fight! 

[Notsocleaver]

4 hours ago, Fugu said:

The cut has no influence on the poor burn of a loosely rolled cigar. I use to call that draw-mocking.

And a too tightly rolled cigar is completely unsmokable.

If you are talking about constructions flaws that extreme, I'm going to side with at least getting to smoke something.

4 hours ago, Smallclub said:

Because you don't get what we're talking about. A resistant draw doesn't mean a difficult draw. And your remark about 2000 tent pegs is unpleasant and derogatory. Enjoy your underfilled harsh hot smoking turds.

Unpleasant and derogatory are fine ways to describe much of the production run around that time period, so I'll take that point as clearly communicated and leave it at that. We all want cigars that draw well without any extra work, but if it can't be that way I find it a lot easier to salvage cigars that are a little under filled rather than a little over filled. To be fair, I live in a place with 75% humidity year round, so the second a cigar leaves my humidor, its getting wetter, not drier. My experience has been that if the resistance in a churchill sized cigar starts out as firm and needing work like the original post describes, it usually progresses into something acrid about half way through.

[fabes]

On September 8, 2016 at 9:34 AM, Smallclub said:

There is a reason the tight draw is called "the cuban draw" in many countries.

Just enjoyed a lovely firm draw on a picadores. The "correct" draw is quite a delight and beats a loose draw everytime. 

[Smallclub]

On 09/09/2016 at 9:23 AM, Notsocleaver said:

And a too tightly rolled cigar is completely unsmokable.

If you are talking about constructions flaws that extreme, I'm going to side with at least getting to smoke something.

Unpleasant and derogatory are fine ways to describe much of the production run around that time period,

What makes you think this thread is about plugged cigars, or "fofo" (underfilled) cigars? Why are you assuming that people who like the "cuban draw" are smoking tent pegs?

[subport]

Lets just say 1 is wind tunnel 10 is almost plugged. I am enjoying the most around 6-8. Yes I do like "cuban draw". You cannot slow down a wind tunelling lose cigar to get all the nuances... Nope. You can make it acceptable but thats it. Hate loose cigars. I toss more under than overfilled cigars. But thats just the way I like. 

 

So for the OP yea, absolutely. It is my experience too and thats the reason I prefer form over loose...

[Williamos]

No kidding. wondering what motivates someone to constantly berate people for their opinions, tastes and preferences 

I put that down to close-mindedness, a need to always be right, and a know-it-all attitude. Good manners are free people!


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[Smallclub]

3 minutes ago, Williamos said:

I put that down to close-mindedness, a need to always be right, and a know-it-all attitude. Good manners are free people!


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Says the man who joined this forum less than 3 months ago…

Tell me, who started to be unpleasant here? “ keep your lovely 2000 vintage flor de la tent pegs for yourselves”, talk about knowledge and good manners!

[stogieluver]

Let's all play nice, or else the po po gone be comin' 'round. 

To answer the OP's question, I'd much rather have a "Cuban draw" cigar than a wind tunnel.  That classic, slightly tight, draw rolled into CC's is just one more thing with CC's that elevate them above NC's, which are mostly wind tunnels with no nuanced flavors.  Just my opinion. 

[Williamos]

Both can be frustrating, right? I had a Monte Edmondo the other night that I turned myself inside out getting a draw out of. Couple of weeks earlier had a Party D4 so loose that I just couldn't smoke it so acrid it became. I had a good solution to both problems: got a replacement cigar from the humidor.


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[Smallclub]

12 minutes ago, Williamos said:

 a Party D4 so loose that I just couldn't smoke it so acrid it became.

When I find a cigar like this (grossly underfilled, spongious, etc.) in a box, I put it my desktop humi with the highest RH% (the one I use for Piedras and NCs) and when I smoke it I re-hydrate the wrapper with water very often.

[vladdraq]

17 minutes ago, Smallclub said:

When I find a cigar like this (grossly underfilled, spongious, etc.) in a box, I put it my desktop humi with the highest RH% (the one I use for Piedras and NCs) and when I smoke it I re-hydrate the wrapper with water very often.

Or you could smoke it when it's very humid outside (rainy day, or hot and humid)

[Fugu]

On 09/09/2016 at 9:23 AM, Notsocleaver said:

And a too tightly rolled cigar is completely unsmokable.

Actually, there is more you can do about a tight draw than there is remedy for a wind tunnel.
But I get your standpoint, obviously the draw-preference is as personal as it is taste (organoleptic, so to say), as this thread goes to show again.
 

On 09/09/2016 at 9:23 AM, Notsocleaver said:

To be fair, I live in a place with 75% humidity year round, so the second a cigar leaves my humidor, its getting wetter, not drier.

Well, we might be onto somethig here. Perhaps you are storing your cigars on the moister end. If you have de-humidifying means in your storage, try and turn the set point a little lower and try smoking slender cigars only on dryer days. I am sure your proportion of 10 : 1 for plugged vs. windtunnel will reverse.

 

Another, more general remark here, which I wanted to get off my chest for a longer time now. I know, this will be controversial again, and before any doubts occur and claims for proof and scientific citations will pop up again, I will say that this is my personal opinion formed from own experience and observations, with downright nothing to back it up 'scientifically'. I can't verify it for you guys, sorry! 

The tobacco structure in Cuban leaf is much different from that of other provenance. From my experience, it generally is much more hygroscopic, i.e. responding sensibly to changes in rH, in particular when fresh (Perhaps there is a reason, why people recommend storing NCs on the moister end of the scale...). With more age, a tightly rolled cigar usually opens up considerably, and therefore, I believe, most Cubans are intentionally rolled a tad more to the tighter side, cigars like the Lanceros or the Sir Winston, the Esplendidos for instance will usually come with a tighter draw when fresh (and when perfectly rolled!), same holds for most Cervantes anyway... (I know, I've said it before..). And I guess for that same reason Cuban cigar making is also a bit less forgiving technically. That might be one of the main reasons for the amount of complaints of tight draws and the usual citing of NCs for their "always flawless" construction. (And to add here, I personally think statements like Cuban rollers being generally less skilled, being less closely supervised, or being demotivated due to being poorly paid compared to their fellow colleagues in Nic or Hond, as of today, is one of the many urban legends...). As Rob rightly mentioned just the other day in a recent post - guess it was on ammonia and sick periods - the particular manufactuing conditions in the Fabrica play an important role as well. Cuban leaf is much more supple and pliable and closely reacts to ambient temp. and moisture. The more moist the leaf, the more elastic it will become and the higher the risk that the bunch is being overfilled by the roller, as the structural resistance in touch and feel will be different. The skill of a good roller lets him/her carefully compensate for this variability in environmental conditions from day to day.

I guess people need to realize - if you want exceptional sensoric quality in tobacco you have to accept a certain 'touchiness' on the construction side. This shall not serve as an excuse, but as part of the explanation! I am often reminded by those recurring NC-CC discussions as if debating the deepness of the colour in a Coonawarra Shiraz and a Côte de Nuits.... Or discussing the softness of a cheese over its sensoric properties. Not sure whether I can transport what I mean.... The potato varieties with the best taste are often those most demanding to grow and those with the most difficult shape of tubers, which are downright a nuisance to peel. But you know what you get and you want exactly that - for the taste!

I'll take a stiff-drawing Molinos any day over a perfectly constructed Padron XY. But that's just me ...haha  

[Williamos]

When I find a cigar like this (grossly underfilled, spongious, etc.) in a box, I put it my desktop humi with the highest RH% (the one I use for Piedras and NCs) and when I smoke it I re-hydrate the wrapper with water very often.

I will try this. Rehydration with a damp sponge or cloth?


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