Learning 69% RH is too high for me

[Mattb82]

Saw all the posts about 62-65%. New to Cubans and always smoked non Cubans at 68-69. Have the 69 boevida packs in the humi. Changing to 65 tomorrow. Literally fighting to keep a Monty #2 going right now. When I switch how long will it take to see a positive change in my cigars? 

[Mattb82]

Also should I just take the packs out now until I switch tomorrow to bring it down some? Currently 67 degrees and 68% 

[Philc2001]

What temperature are they in? I find the RH is relative to the temperature. My home is usually around 77-78df so 66-68%rh is not bad. At 70df then 60-62%rh may be better. It's a relative.


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[Mattb82]

Downstairs where the humi lives is 69 degrees and stays 67-70 in the humi. I may just setup a small desktop at 60-65 and transfer a few per week I plan on smoking to there so I can keep storing at 68-69 RH 

[CaptainQuintero]

I find it generally takes at least a week, beads etc are usually a case of weeks not days. It depends on a lot of factors, but patience is always the best way forward I've found.

I think the lowest I got down to was 54% and the flavours were improving every % drop, however at that point the wrappers began to get fragile

[Mattb82]

Thanks captain Quintero. What are your thoughts on storing at higher temps and moving  to a lower RH humidor before smoking as opposed to storing at the lower RH 

[CaptainQuintero]

I'd guess that storing cigars at your preferred smoking % probably doesn't harm then as long as the % is not so low that the cigar is brittle. Many people dry box their weekly cigar selection, personally I don't organise as much as that; I have no idea when smoking opportunities will arise.

I personally store my stuff at around 65% and smoke it at that too, although I've just swapped out my wooden desktop humidors for airtight Tupperware with 62% boveda packs.

There's a lot of worry when you're starting out with damaging your expensive investments etc but cigars are a lot more resistant to damage than we think. As long as you're not getting near mould or beetle temp/rh and your cigars are not going brittle by being too dry then I think you're generally fine, his find whatever works best for you and which causes you the least amount of stress; this is all supposed to be about relaxation remember!

[Fuzz]

Before changing your setup, why not try dry boxing first? See how a selection of cigars smoke, and whether they have improved to your taste. If your other cigars are smoking fine, I would hesitate to make a change. Just because a lot of us like to store and smoke at a lower RH, doesn't mean you will too.

[Mattb82]

The cigars that smoked well for me a 68-69% were all NC. So far of the three cc I've smoked at those numbers I've had issues with each. I do like storing at a little higher RH so I may look into dry boxing or pulling some each week tontransfer tons 62-65% box. 

[Bohn007]

I used to keep my cigars at 72% thinking that was a good thing and while some aged well, not all could handle that much humidity and I lost a few sticks from time to time. The cigars are currently at 68% and I am slowly going to drop the Rh to 65% and see how that helps. 

[PigFish]

Gentlemen you should keep in mind that saying my cigars are kept and XXrH without some number representing temperature is quite meaningless. There is going to be different percent moisture contents in cigars at any fixed rH when one changes temperature. PMC is the goal for those looking for consistent smoking. Temp and rH therefore go hand in hand... 70rH is not a problem if the ambient temperature (inside the humidor) is high enough (to your taste of course).

-Piggy

[dvickery]

5 hours ago, CaptainQuintero said:

find whatever works best for you and which causes you the least amount of stress; this is all supposed to be about relaxation remember!

This is wisdom .

derrek

[lafabrica]

and since you already have bovedas, you can test fairly easily/cheaply.

get two small-ish tupperware containers, put a 65% and 62% in each (60 gram).  put similar/multiple sticks in each for a month+ and smoke them.  i used this method in my beginning to figure out my preference, but you have the right idea.  

its a controlled way (airtight) to confirm three identical cigars at three RH levels.

and i also dry box my cigars for the next 1-2 days.  its a ritual for me, like sorting out clothes to wear.

 

 

 

[CaptainQuintero]

1 hour ago, dvickery said:

This is wisdom .

derrek

There's a first for everything!

[Mattb82]

Thanks for all the feedback. It's actually fun finding the right numbers for me. I've been smoking NC for s few years and never paid a bunch of attention other than the blind 70/70 pushed at cigar stores. Now I'm really digging in as I dive into Cubans. Currently my humis are at 67.5 degrees and 69% RH. I have no doubt they are safe to age or at least my version of aging because I get excited and start smoking them after 6 months so I buy cigars at least a year old so I'm at least over a year in age. Bottom line is I will never be aging for 5+ years but I can get up to 1-2years as I build my stash up. 

I have to decide if I want to store and smoke at 67 degrees and 65-% or store at my current level and dry box. My temp is unlikely to change. It will get up to 70 during the day and 66 at night sometimes in the basement. I'm learning that the temp plays a big role in water retention and that seems to be the name of the game here. So I need to figure out what RH will compliment my 67ish degrees the best 

[vladdraq]

6 hours ago, PigFish said:

Gentlemen you should keep in mind that saying my cigars are kept and XXrH without some number representing temperature is quite meaningless. There is going to be different percent moisture contents in cigars at any fixed rH when one changes temperature. PMC is the goal for those looking for consistent smoking. Temp and rH therefore go hand in hand... 70rH is not a problem if the ambient temperature (inside the humidor) is high enough (to your taste of course).

-Piggy

You struggling hard Piggy, good luck! And chapeau to doing that!

[Philc2001]

As @PigFish pointed out above, the temperature and RH go hand in hand. As a rough estimate I prefer an RH at a ratio of 1.13 to 1.16, meaning (TdF / 1.13 to 1.16). So if I was storing cigars at 70df then (70 / 1.16) = 60.34% RH, up to  (70 / 1.13) = 61.94% RH.  So basically, at 70df storage temperature I would want to set my RH at 60-62%. As it so happens, mine are stored around 77-78df (house temperature) so I keep my humidor in the range of 67-68% RH.

YMMV.

[Mattb82]

^^^ exactly what I needed 

[agulerer]

3 hours ago, Philc2001 said:

As @PigFish pointed out above, the temperature and RH go hand in hand. As a rough estimate I prefer an RH at a ratio of 1.13 to 1.16, meaning (TdF / 1.13 to 1.16). So if I was storing cigars at 70df then (70 / 1.16) = 60.34% RH, up to  (70 / 1.13) = 61.94% RH.  So basically, at 70df storage temperature I would want to set my RH at 60-62%. As it so happens, mine are stored around 77-78df (house temperature) so I keep my humidor in the range of 67-68% RH.

YMMV.

I have never seen numbers like that. If temp goes up, we need to rh% up right? Interesting. How do you find these numbers?

You are saying that at 65 F I need to have 56-58 rh% for cigars right???

[Philc2001]

46 minutes ago, agulerer said:

I have never seen numbers like that. If temp goes up, we need to rh% up right? Interesting. How do you find these numbers?

You are saying that at 65 F I need to have 56-58 rh% for cigars right???

These ratios are something I arrived at mostly from anecdotal observation and my own personal experience over the 20+ years of collecting cigars. It is not based strictly on controlled scientific experiments. What I observed from using a wine fridge for 13 or 14 years, is when it was keeping my cigars chilled around 65dF (it's upper limit), my cigars were too wet at 65-66% RH, which is what I was aiming for. Eventually I grew tired of trying to regulate humidity in the fridge and just unplugged it. During that time, and since I have read in many forums that people tend to store cigars in the range of 65-75dF, and many people seem to prefer lower RH in the high 50's to low 60's.

I haven't read enough of the research @PigFish has published, but from what I have read it appears he has taken a more scientific approach, and it appears both he and I are proponents of humidity for cigar storage being relative to the temperature they are stored in. However, I want to be careful not to put words in his mouth, he may have a very different formula. I just like to keep things simple and easy to remember, so I narrowed it down to these ratios for my personal needs. I neither claim they are exact or the best for any specific application but my own personal taste and preference. 

So my advice, which is worth what you paid for it, is if I was to store my cigars at 65dF I would aim for 56-58% RH and then adjust from there based on observation and preferences.

 

[agulerer]

Understood. What is pigfish research and where can I find it?

[PigFish]

5 hours ago, Philc2001 said:

As @PigFish pointed out above, the temperature and RH go hand in hand. As a rough estimate I prefer an RH at a ratio of 1.13 to 1.16, meaning (TdF / 1.13 to 1.16). So if I was storing cigars at 70df then (70 / 1.16) = 60.34% RH, up to  (70 / 1.13) = 61.94% RH.  So basically, at 70df storage temperature I would want to set my RH at 60-62%. As it so happens, mine are stored around 77-78df (house temperature) so I keep my humidor in the range of 67-68% RH.

YMMV.

Good thinking mate, I like it...!

I have some general isotherms for non-Cuban tobacco (ones that @Fugu is supposed to be curve matching for me, ahem) and based on that data, and some empirical, anecdotal work, I am currently working on numbers somewhere between 3.5 and 4 to 1. So we are on the same page, but using slightly different numbers. I tend to tell people that if you move your temperature 3 to 4 degrees, you can expect to need to compensate that with 1 rH.

Anyway, I like it... Cheers, bravo! -Piggy

[PigFish]

5 minutes ago, Philc2001 said:

These ratios are something I arrived at mostly from anecdotal observation and my own personal experience over the 20+ years of collecting cigars. It is not based strictly on controlled scientific experiments. What I observed from using a wine fridge for 13 or 14 years, is when it was keeping my cigars chilled around 65dF (it's upper limit), my cigars were too wet at 65-66% RH, which is what I was aiming for. Eventually I grew tired of trying to regulate humidity in the fridge and just unplugged it. During that time, and since I have read in many forums that people tend to store cigars in the range of 65-75dF, and many people seem to prefer lower RH in the high 50's to low 60's.

I haven't read enough of the research @PigFish has published, but from what I have read it appears he has taken a more scientific approach, and it appears both he and I are proponents of humidity for cigar storage being relative to the temperature they are stored in. However, I want to be careful not to put words in his mouth, he may have a very different formula. I just like to keep things simple and easy to remember, so I narrowed it down to these ratios for my personal needs. I neither claim they are exact or the best for any specific application but my own personal taste and preference. 

So my advice, which is worth what you paid for it, is if I was to store my cigars at 65dF I would aim for 56-58% RH and then adjust from there based on observation and preferences.

 

... excellent post mate... Bravo again!

Cheers! -Piggy

[agulerer]

Pigfish, can you give some examples for Cubans? At 75 F, what rh is optimum? 

[PigFish]

Just now, agulerer said:

Pigfish, can you give some examples for Cubans? At 75 F, what rh is optimum? 

I just posted something a few days ago that best describe my feelings, let me look around for it and reread it before I post again! Cheers!

@Philc2001 is definitely on the right track, so you need not wait on me, just verify anyones advice (including mine) with your own experiences and learn to trust yourself over that of internet advice! My numbers are slightly different, but NOT BETTER THAN HIS!