Muted Flavors and Bitter Taste

[JohnS]

6 hours ago, agulerer said:

After I made many many phone calls to other some well known cigar divans whole around the world and some sellers, all of them told me that Cuban cigars smoke good until but never go more than 70 rh and go down more than 65 rh. Between 65-70 it is all good they say. And read Steve Saka's real world test and looked at my experiences. I smoked Hoyo Epi 2 at 67rh% and it was really great. 

Than I think about Zino Davidoff book and he suggests 67-72 rh%. Than I think Min Ron Nee and his suggestions about daily smokes at 70 rh%. Than my conclusion is:

Now than, I am always happy between 65-70 rh with my Cuban cigars.  Other things are only obsessions. 

 

Don't limit yourself to what retailers advise, after all, they have a significant investment in their stock so it's expected that the great majority keep conservative storage conditions. Not everyone does. And in the world of Habanos there are many of us who enjoy our cigars stored at 20°C or less and below 65% RH. You will see this for yourself if you take the time to search up on this topic and read a few threads.

 

[Fugu]

On 05/09/2016 at 4:48 PM, agulerer said:

Today, I called 5-6 La Casa Del Habano in different countries. England, Germany, Belgium, Holland and Luxembourg.

7 hours ago, agulerer said:

After I made many many phone calls to other some well known cigar divans whole around the world and some sellers, all of them

seriously?!

 

On 05/09/2016 at 4:48 PM, agulerer said:

All of them said there is no noticeable taste difference between 65-70 rh

This certainly and objectively is wrong. And I have to say, I wonder they told you that.

While taste is a personal thing, I guess there is almost no one here on this forum to deny a strong influence of tobacco moisture on burn and taste.

[agulerer]

@Fugu you are absolutely correct that no one can say certain things about taste because it changes person to person and it is like meat. But when you ask to good chef about beef, he will say 6/10 cooked beef is good for average. Than you try and adjust about cook level.

But about cigars confusion starts here that, Habanos (Chef) says that between 65-70 rh and 18-20C, Cuban cigar taste best. But on this forum no one use chef suggestion. Other chef (Zino Davidoff), other chef(Min Ron Nee) all of them say ready to smoke cigars 67-72 is good.

But here I cannot see people smoke and like Cubans at 67-70 rh%. So I am thinking where is the big difference and why?

You will tell me it is personal taste. When you say this, I will tell you that Does Habanos, Zino Davidoff, Min Ron Nee, La Casa Del Habano owners do have very very different personal taste?

What will you tell me about these, people?

[Fugu]

11 minutes ago, agulerer said:

What will you tell me about these, people?

That, if that is so, they obviously have a different personal taste than the majority on this forum. It's really just that.

 

[agulerer]

I think I found this time :))))

There is no problem about Habanos, Zino Davidoff, Min Ron Nee and 60 rh lovers palate.  I talked with a cigar aficionado in Canada, I learned that 69-70 rh is best for Cuban cigars :))) But which Cuban cigars??? 69-70 rh is best which Cuban cigars finished 1st maturation period. Cuban cigars are best 65 rh which are nearly 2-4 years old. 60 rh are best for Cuban cigars which are 6 months - 2 years old. All these differences are because of TANNIN and some OTHER MATERIALS. And 72 rh is good for Cuban cigars which are at least 10 years old and light cigars.

Now I think I am more happy

[CaptainQuintero]

[PigFish]

5 minutes ago, CaptainQuintero said:

... thanks, now I have to blow my nose and clean coffee off my keyboard!!! 

[PigFish]

@agulerer

Mate, I pride myself on patience and mentoring. But have to ask you, are you this confused really, or you jackin' us here? Frankly I have largely stayed out of this thread, and not answered you PM because this is looking more and more like a gag and I can usually smell them a mile away!

Based on what I have seen thus far on this thread, here is my best advice. Google the Dr. Joe Show and do everything he suggests!!!

-Piggy

[Philc2001]

3 hours ago, agulerer said:

I think I found this time :))))

There is no problem about Habanos, Zino Davidoff, Min Ron Nee and 60 rh lovers palate.  I talked with a cigar aficionado in Canada, I learned that 69-70 rh is best for Cuban cigars :))) But which Cuban cigars??? 69-70 rh is best which Cuban cigars finished 1st maturation period. Cuban cigars are best 65 rh which are nearly 2-4 years old. 60 rh are best for Cuban cigars which are 6 months - 2 years old. All these differences are because of TANNIN and some OTHER MATERIALS. And 72 rh is good for Cuban cigars which are at least 10 years old and light cigars.

Now I think I am more happy

Sir, I think you're looking for a silver bullet, and you're not going to find it. There are too many variables and so much depends on personal preference. The so called "Experts" have better things to do than to give detailed individual guidance. They can't cover it all without a deeper discussion on the RH, temperature, vapor pressure, and so on. Instead, they take a safe approach and just throw out a number, more so to prevent fools from simply buying a box of cigars and leaving it out on their desk without humidification. 

The environmentals in a store humidor, versus your desktop humidor, versus someone's walk-in closet, versus a cooler, versus a wine fridge, etc. are all different. Then there are other considerations, such as storage environment versus the smoking environment. If you live in and smoke your cigars in Cuba, chances are you're smoking in 80df/80%rh most of the time. If you live in New York, Australia, Europe, etc. you're probably dealing with a much broader range of temperatures and humidity. There is no one magic answer.

Explore and adjust accordingly to your environment, budget and preferences until you find the best balance between flavor and burn quality that suits you best.  

[Smallclub]

7 hours ago, agulerer said:

La Casa Del Habano owners

Since when LCDH owners are experts? LCDH is a franchise, something you BUY, with MONEY, not a reward for your supposed knowledge… There are plenty of members of this forum who are much knowledgeable than many LCDH owners

[TomF]

4 hours ago, PigFish said:

Google the Dr. Joe Show and do everything he suggests!!!

I can assume this is sarcasm...? Although in one video he does go on at some length about the relationship between rh and temperature...

 

[westg]

7 minutes ago, Smallclub said:

Since when LCDH owners are experts? LCDH is a franchise, something you BUY, with MONEY, not a reward for your supposed knowledge… There are plenty members of this forum who are much knowledgeable than many LCDH owners

You would like to think that the owners are very knowledgeable ..why would you bother in the first place .....that said been to quiet a few all over the world where the staff have been thick as planks and don't have a clue . Some very nice looking ones at times though   

[golfgar]

4 hours ago, CaptainQuintero said:

Perfect!  

Good thing pixels are cheap.

[Dijit]

My experience has been that the RH only has slight effect on the flavor directly. It has great effect on the burn speed and temperature. which can have huge effect on the smoking experience. This can lead to sulfur, sour, bitter flavors and even worse. Your smoking tendencies can equally effect this as well. I have found that I used to smoke too fast and often found the same issue you describe in the final 1/3 of the cigar. Keeping all this in mind we really need more information. Things that come to my rather small mind are: Do you always smoke in a relaxed setting so you aren't rushing the smoke? Do you usually drink the same or similar drinks. A friend who started enjoying cigars about 10 years before me once said something to me when I was complaining about a cigar turning bitter and sulfury. He said "slow down you big dummy! Cigars are to smoke slowly and enjoy the contemplation of life and conversation with others that are willing to slow down with you." That was just a few weeks before he passed away.

[PigFish]

2 hours ago, TomF said:

I can assume this is sarcasm...? Although in one video he does go on at some length about the relationship between rh and temperature...

 

... I understand he has a warm spot in his heart for me. He might be a fan and doing some study here at night when the lights are out!!! 

-the Pig

 

Oh, forgot to ask, how's the ticker? Better?

[TomF]

1 hour ago, PigFish said:

Oh, forgot to ask, how's the ticker? Better?

Better, but not completely. There's an ablation in my future...They tell me it will be alright...I'm looking forward to more grandchildren..

[PigFish]

I have had one if that is any consequence. They fixed my arrhythmia and I obviously survived.

If you want me to tell you about it, from the perspective of a patient I certainly will but it may just benefit you to go in without a lot of advanced notice from another guy.

First, relax about it! It is a source of worry, I get that, at least for me it was, as I had several trips to the cath lab previous. Don't worry... I did and it did me little good looking back at it.

I was very hesitant due to how fast my doctor just concluded that it was needed. I was skeptical, as I am about a lot of things. He was right on the money all along. I put myself through a bunch of tests and drugs for nothing. If it is being advised, I hate to say it, just take their word for it.

You want to talk more about it, I am happy to, even on the phone if it pleases you. Like I said, is sounds scarier than it is...

I was just in the cath lab 2 weeks ago and I am back at the keyboard pissing people off as if it never happened! It is the drugs that are f'ing me up!

I have found there is almost always a cigar smoker in the cath lab staff. Man, you want to talk about a stress reliever. I talk cigars... I promise the right people a few cigars and they just let the morphia flow!!! -LOL The lab teams are tight, light hearted and really professional. You will be in good hands, I assure you!

Good luck brother! -Ray

 

[johnhenry]

Sounds like the cigar was in a 'sick' period. Cubans less than 5 years old can go through a time of off flavor. If I have a box that is smoking well and don't get back to it for few months and the flavor are muted or harsh I give them 6-12 month before I try them again. PLPC's are  Notorious for this. They smoke great when they're less than a year old, then from 2 to 3-year-old they are just terrible. After the fourth or fifth year  they really shine. All this mumbo-jumbo of having your cigars at exactly 65 or 70 is a lot of malarkey in my opinion. I keep all my cigars at 55   To 60%. They spoke wonderfully but you do have to be careful because the rappers can get a little brtitle. 

[Bohn007]

7 hours ago, Dijit said:

My experience has been that the RH only has slight effect on the flavor directly. It has great effect on the burn speed and temperature. which can have huge effect on the smoking experience. This can lead to sulfur, sour, bitter flavors and even worse. Your smoking tendencies can equally effect this as well. I have found that I used to smoke too fast and often found the same issue you describe in the final 1/3 of the cigar. Keeping all this in mind we really need more information. Things that come to my rather small mind are: Do you always smoke in a relaxed setting so you aren't rushing the smoke? Do you usually drink the same or similar drinks. A friend who started enjoying cigars about 10 years before me once said something to me when I was complaining about a cigar turning bitter and sulfury. He said "slow down you big dummy! Cigars are to smoke slowly and enjoy the contemplation of life and conversation with others that are willing to slow down with you." That was just a few weeks before he passed away.

I have found that many novices, including myself at one time smoked cigars too fast. When I am out with people that say that they "like" cigars, I frequently mention to them approx how long the cigar is supposed to last as a subtle hint to slow down. 

[Preacher man]

I try keep at 65rh/65f and have been experimenting with dry boxing and for my taste I have found toward final third is not as sharp and metallic.  I've had to come to the realization it's a journey and not a sprint and I need to enjoy the ride experimenting with what I like and learn from the many others doing the same.  FOH been the best place to do this that I've discovered.

[agulerer]

Thanks for all suggestions and reply and also reply about cures  But I am the man that, if I do one thing, I must do the best for me. In cigar world, there is no best I know that. I just try to find what was the cigar maker suggestion and target about flavour. You can like it at 60 rh or 75 rh, it is your palate and if you like it than it is ok. But there must be suggestion of maker of cigar. So I made research for 2 days and talked with some aficionados and some people in Cuba and some people from Davidoff to learn what was cigar maker suggestion. 

So their suggestion was very simple, humidor is a micro climate environment. For cuban cigars, humidor must be micro climate of Cuba climate. So @PigFish and @Philc2001 was right about humidity/temp correlation. So higher humidity with higher temp. But Cuban people say 68 or more is better  and target. So when they make cigar and blend cigar, their taste tests and flavour targets are done in humid environment. 

Davidoff people say more humidity  72 or more is better. 

So high temp more humidity is always correct! For Cubans optimal target is 68 or more, and for Davidoff it is 72 or more.  These values are makers values. 

But no-one cares what maker thing is! It all depends on your palate and feelings. 

 

Thanks for all replies and suggestions...

 

[Bohn007]

While I do not have the level of expertise as Ray (piggy), I have been aging my cigars for 20+ years and I can say that while you can play with lower humidity levels than 65%, you need to be careful as you get close to 70%rh and over otherwise you can attract mold and ruin your smokes

[PigFish]

22 minutes ago, Bohn007 said:

While I do not have the level of expertise as Ray (piggy), I have been aging my cigars for 20+ years and I can say that while you can play with lower humidity levels than 65%, you need to be careful as you get close to 70%rh and over otherwise you can attract mold and ruin your smokes

... apparently you have not seen the worlds greatest plume thread! IT is not mold, no never... 

Ask any La Casa!!! "Oh no sir, that is not mold, that is plume. If you don't buy that cigar right now, I will save it for myself for later!!! We should ask a premium for that cigar, but since you found it first, it is yours!!!"

Many cigar stores have no idea what is going on in their humidor. It is no wonder they give poor meaningless advice. Finding mold in a cigar store is not at all uncommon. It would appear that good storage advice is.

-Piggy

[Bohn007]

6 hours ago, PigFish said:

... apparently you have not seen the worlds greatest plume thread! IT is not mold, no never... 

Ask any La Casa!!! "Oh no sir, that is not mold, that is plume. If you don't buy that cigar right now, I will save it for myself for later!!! We should ask a premium for that cigar, but since you found it first, it is yours!!!"

Many cigar stores have no idea what is going on in their humidor. It is no wonder they give poor meaningless advice. Finding mold in a cigar store is not at all uncommon. It would appear that good storage advice is.

-Piggy

Which one is mold vs Plume. This should be easy. 

[vladdraq]

7 hours ago, PigFish said:

... apparently you have not seen the worlds greatest plume thread! IT is not mold, no never... 

Ask any La Casa!!! "Oh no sir, that is not mold, that is plume. If you don't buy that cigar right now, I will save it for myself for later!!! We should ask a premium for that cigar, but since you found it first, it is yours!!!"

Many cigar stores have no idea what is going on in their humidor. It is no wonder they give poor meaningless advice. Finding mold in a cigar store is not at all uncommon. It would appear that good storage advice is.

-Piggy

 

Worst is in Cuba, they don't have a clue sometimes. I have seen completely dried out cigars or covered with mold and the person sitting there just dont give a shit. Actually they should think we are crazy paying those $$$ for cigars. 

Piggy, is plume crsytallized nicotine? If so, i think we should have ligero in the filler. Not sure a light cigar can develop plume.