New source...should I freeze them?

[Nino]

21 hours ago, El Presidente said:

HSA been doing it since 2005. Guanabacoa warehouse. It is only for export stock.  Do a quick search on the forum and you will find pics of the facility and some good information. 

 

 

Having visited the Guanabacoa warehouse myself a few times and seen their freezers first hand, I can only attest to this - plus that some European importers do a second freezing.

[gweilgi]

10 hours ago, Smallclub said:

Can you name one big importer of habanos who stores cigars from various provenances in the same warehouse?

Tobaccoland, the importer into Austria: they import and sell something like 500 brands, from Davidoff and all the Cuban marcas to the full range of cigars made by the Villiger company.

Interesting to note in this context: 5th Avenue, the sole nominated importer of Cubans into Germany, immediately freezes all their cigars at -20 degrees when they arrive....

 

10 hours ago, Smallclub said:

And, what is a "casa de cabanas"?

That would be an example of anti-cigar censorship by my Apple spellchecker.

Oopsie...

[MahDooRow]

I've never frozen my boxes for fear that I might accidentally damage them.  I buy from reliable sources and check my boxes once per week for unwanted invaders. 

[Fugu]

On 03/09/2016 at 5:26 PM, Jimmy_jack said:

Never considered the vacuum pack a risk, ill take your advice. And apologies for the redundant question.

You're welcome, I guess we certainly need to set up a freezing and beetle tutorial at some point... haha  .

Actually, in vac-packaging, I do see the charming allurement of "mechanical stabilization" with a simple plastic bag. But that is a warped one, since said stability has to be provided by the stick itself: As you are sucking out air, i.e. remove the inner air cushion balancing the pressure, the outer atmospheric pressure will then be directly acting on that stick. The stick has to support the plastic film at that point, becoming pressed against it by the outer overpressure, which is why the packaging starts feeling so firm and 'durable'. As long as like in a gentle box-press, as Piggy sais, fine (although not exactly comparable since in a dressbox, the box still takes the burden of excessive pressure from the cigars). But, the problem is - most people and vendors tend to overdoing it. It's just so nice seeing the machine so swiftly suck out the last molecules of air from the bag...., and the more you vacuumize, the more the tobacco will be compressed and the "nicer" and more solid it feels...

That vac-technique should really only be used to remove excessive air. Although in my opinion, there is no plus in doing or not doing it, apart from keeping the sticks from moving. A certain outer air volume does not do any harm to your sticks. Whether you remove it or not is plain irrelevant for shipping. One should make sure that no large ΔP builds up during the process within the package. As that would then excessively squeeze the cigars, wrappers will become deformed, and in particular the foot-ends may suffer (in your pic, the Cedro may even pinch the wrapper). Seems you were fine since your sticks were comparatively moist, as you say, and pliable. But in an older, less elastic stick that can prove critical for the wrapper. A vac-packaging is not protecting anything more what could not likewise be accomplished with a normal zip-lock or other plastic wrapping. Mechanical stability can be provided much gentler by other means without exerting any strain on the cigar, such as using tubos or stuffed cigar boxes or the like.

[Fugu]

On 03/09/2016 at 7:00 PM, PigFish said:

About H SA and socialism/communism. I find it interesting that few address the fact that the joint venture of H SA has no rights to direct Tabacuba to DO anything. Direction of the actual tobacco company, is wholly controlled by the powers that be on the island.

Actually I did it, if you check the discussion underlying the link given in my first post above, Piggy....

However, that was not the point here. I was aiming at the repeated claims of people expressing they don't trust HSA as a "socialist" company in their storage and freezing standards. That simply is bullocks! Sorry, but it is just that.

On 03/09/2016 at 7:00 PM, PigFish said:

Personally I see the private owners of H SA more as a victim than as a partner but that is just my opinion.

Perhaps. But people tend to forget, it had been those major European importers, foremost French Seita and Spanish Tabacalera, respectively, later joining to Altadis,  French Coprova, German 5th Avenue [by the way, Germany had a long standing relationship with the Cuban "brother" state (and long before Villiger entered stage), due to it's former socialist half, through the Comecon. There are few countries, where you get all the Cuban Marcas and Vitolas on a regular basis, Germany being one of them, perhaps the only one. There is a reason...], English H&F, providing Cuba with the means to keep the industry alive and running after USSR and Comecon had said "Good Bye" in 1991. They literally saved the Cuban cigar export industry (and their own business of course) from collapsing during a very critical period (economically as well as climate-related). And Cuba is aware of that to this day. Those companies and personalities, be it as major importers and/or through Altadis, resp. Imperial TG today, holding their shares in HSA, are painstakingly looking after the treatment of the product. You can bet on that. The storage and freezing facilities, and also some other production means like draw-testing machines, curing chamber technology etc. are all western products and western technology standards. This "socialist" claim may be justified in parts for the agricultural and manufacturing branch of the industry (i.e. Tabacuba), sure, but certainly not on the marketing, exportation and distribution sector, for which HSA signs responsible.

[Smallclub]

6 minutes ago, Fugu said:

 There are few countries, where you get all the Cuban Marcas and Vitolas on a regular basis, Germany being one of them, perhaps the only one.

France as well. Coprova imports 100% of the catalogue (except Quai d'Orsay and Por Larrañaga, imported by Altadis).

[Smallclub]

10 minutes ago, Fugu said:

 The storage and freezing facilities, and also some other production means like draw-testing machines, curing chamber technology etc. are all western products and western technology standards. This "socialist" claim may be justified in parts for the agricultural and manufacturing branch of the industry (i.e. Tabacuba), sure, but certainly not on the marketing, exportation and distribution sector, for which HSA signs responsible.

Absolutely.

[Fugu]

9 minutes ago, Smallclub said:

France as well. Coprova imports 100% of the catalogue (except Quai d'Orsay and Por Larrañaga, imported by Altadis).

Thanks, SC, I wasn't sure about that.

In another thread you mentioned, you as well as Guy had posted some info / the story of the creation of Quai d'Orsay. I would love to read that. If you could indeed find the links... would be great

[gweilgi]

55 minutes ago, Fugu said:

Actually I did it, if you check the discussion underlying the link given in my first post above, Piggy....

However, that was not the point here. I was aiming at the repeated claims of people expressing they don't trust HSA as a "socialist" company in their storage and freezing standards. That simply is bullocks! Sorry, but it is just that.

Perhaps. But people tend to forget, it had been those major European importers, foremost French Seita and Spanish Tabacalera, respectively, later joining to Altadis,  French Coprova, German 5th Avenue [by the way, Germany had a long standing relationship with the Cuban "brother" state (and long before Villiger entered stage), due to it's former socialist half, through the Comecon. There are few countries, where you get all the Cuban Marcas and Vitolas on a regular basis, Germany being one of them, perhaps the only one. There is a reason...], English H&F, providing Cuba with the means to keep the industry alive and running after USSR and Comecon had said "Good Bye" in 1991. They literally saved the Cuban cigar export industry (and their own business of course) from collapsing during a very critical period (economically as well as climate-related). And Cuba is aware of that to this day. Those companies and personalities, be it as major importers and/or through Altadis, resp. Imperial TG today, holding their shares in HSA, are painstakingly looking after the treatment of the product. You can bet on that. The storage and freezing facilities, and also some other production means like draw-testing machines, curing chamber technology etc. are all western products and western technology standards. This "socialist" claim may be justified in parts for the agricultural and manufacturing branch of the industry (i.e. Tabacuba), sure, but certainly not on the marketing, exportation and distribution sector, for which HSA signs responsible.

Two points:

first, I think it is fair to assume that manufacturers in the DR, Nicaragua, Honduras and other countries use the same Western technology.  So why is it that I have a far higher failure rate with Cubans than with non-Cubans?  When I buy non-Cubans, I have no hesitation to grab a box off the shelf and take it home unexamined.  I simply cannot take that risk with Cubans; every box I buy either comes from merchants who will examine the boxes themselves, or I do so myself on the premises.  So if the technology is the same, then the root cause of the rather higher incidence of plugged cigars from Cuba must lie elsewhere -- slipshod quality control, insufficient training of the staff, less corporate emphasis on delivering their product at the requisite high standard, in other words.  

Secondly, why is it then that 5th Avenue still insists on deep-freezing all their imports before distribution?  This is a not inconsiderable cost and risk to the cigars that could easily be saved ... if they had the confidence in Cuban QC procedures.  Which they clearly do not.  

[Smallclub]

3 minutes ago, gweilgi said:

 When I buy non-Cubans, I have no hesitation to grab a box off the shelf and take it home unexamined.  I simply cannot take that risk with Cubans; every box I buy either comes from merchants who will examine the boxes themselves, or I do so myself on the premises.  So if the technology is the same, then the root cause of the rather higher incidence of plugged cigars from Cuba must lie elsewhere -- slipshod quality control, insufficient training of the staff, less corporate emphasis on delivering their product at the requisite high standard, in other words.  

Maybe because the habano is still an agricultural and artisanal product, when cigars from DR, Honduras Nica etc. are industrial products, for better or for worse…

As for "plugged" cuban cigars, IME they have virtually disappeared from the scene…

[CaptainQuintero]

1 hour ago, Fugu said:

Actually I did it, if you check the discussion underlying the link given in my first post above, Piggy....

However, that was not the point here. I was aiming at the repeated claims of people expressing they don't trust HSA as a "socialist" company in their storage and freezing standards. That simply is bullocks! Sorry, but it is just that.

Perhaps. But people tend to forget, it had been those major European importers, foremost French Seita and Spanish Tabacalera, respectively, later joining to Altadis,  French Coprova, German 5th Avenue [by the way, Germany had a long standing relationship with the Cuban "brother" state (and long before Villiger entered stage), due to it's former socialist half, through the Comecon. There are few countries, where you get all the Cuban Marcas and Vitolas on a regular basis, Germany being one of them, perhaps the only one. There is a reason...], English H&F, providing Cuba with the means to keep the industry alive and running after USSR and Comecon had said "Good Bye" in 1991. They literally saved the Cuban cigar export industry (and their own business of course) from collapsing during a very critical period (economically as well as climate-related). And Cuba is aware of that to this day. Those companies and personalities, be it as major importers and/or through Altadis, resp. Imperial TG today, holding their shares in HSA, are painstakingly looking after the treatment of the product. You can bet on that. The storage and freezing facilities, and also some other production means like draw-testing machines, curing chamber technology etc. are all western products and western technology standards. This "socialist" claim may be justified in parts for the agricultural and manufacturing branch of the industry (i.e. Tabacuba), sure, but certainly not on the marketing, exportation and distribution sector, for which HSA signs responsible.

That is something I've always wondered about; the UK catalogue has improved sightly but there are vast swathes of the catalogue not available there. Germany in contrast seems to have everything.

LGC is not there, QDO wasn't until recently, a lot of the cheaper ranges eg mille fleurs, a lot of the Partagas and RyJ cheapies, Por Larranaga only has the PLPC etc

I don't know if it's simply a choice to not import them (I'm sure they could stock them if they wished) or something else unseen

[PigFish]

16 hours ago, Fugu said:

Actually I did it, if you check the discussion underlying the link given in my first post above, Piggy....

However, that was not the point here. I was aiming at the repeated claims of people expressing they don't trust HSA as a "socialist" company in their storage and freezing standards. That simply is bullocks! Sorry, but it is just that.

 

I think in many cases Paul we tend to agree here more than disagree. While you pointed out eloquently a perceived value for H SA, you did actually pretty much toss Tabacuba under the bus. That was my take anyway, and frankly I have to agree with you, if that was your point.

My disagreement to the second paragraph likely comes from some 'desecting' of words. You obviously politically stand to the left of me and we at least appear to have opposing views on the value of socialism. It appears that (to me at least) that the poster that brought it up used it to describe, substandard, or shoddy. How you meant it you would need to tell me.

There appears to be further confusion about 'who is' H SA, and then therefore 'who is' Tabacuba and what roles they have. I am not saying that you are confused, but I do feel that the majority membership is, in that they constantly use the H SA moniker for anything that has to do with the manufacture of Cuban cigars. While Tabacuba is a monopoly, H SA is a separate company and they are joined at the hip (so to speak). As I see it, H SA is a universal term (here and other places) for H SA and Tabacuba, and that then leads to part of this 'guilty' party verses 'not guilty' party analysis.

My last issue is in the "simply is bollocks" statement. Why? Because my friend I see this as an empiricist not an ideologue. So lets strip the sensitive language from the text, that being the word socialist, and simply ask, "Are some of the cigars that come from Isla Cuba, a representation that they do shoddy work?" Not all shoddy work mind you, but lets extend that to include poor quality control work. Can we agree that cigars from Cuba suffer quality control issues? You can answer for yourself, but I think that you might agree with me here.

Moving forward, are there any bugs in boxes anymore? Meaning beetles of course! The answer is yes, there are, you only need search the internet to find the cases. The internet of course does not represent all the cases, just some of them. This proves something... if of course those that are presenting the evidence are not lying about it. It proves that there is a 'hole' (socialist or capitalist) in the freezing standard!!! You see my friend, you cannot claim competency as long as the phenomenon still exists, so the argument that it is bullocks is therefore untrue. On the other hand things have gotten better. I grant you that, this is likely the work (the pressure) from H SA. But, if the facilities are located on Isla Cuba, and the Cubans (meaning Tabacuba) run it, break it, can't energize it, the question remains, is it absolutely out of the question, that they don't sell around it??? It is a faith question.

This now becomes a confidence game. One that I would not swear to. The Cubans, socialist or otherwise are unreliable for facts AND QUALITY CONTROL. Better or worse is not the comparison. Reliable or unreliable is the yes/no, no gray area question.

So my friend, that is my take on the matter. I believe that is why many of our friends here freeze their cigars. They don't trust Cuban, Tabacuba, H SA et al, quality control. And frankly my friend, they don't trust them to always use, control or maintain the freezer! Saying it is exists and is used, does not mean that it is used on every box properly. As long as there are beetles in new sealed boxes, there is a problem somewhere, and with Cuban quality control being an overriding issue, they are, and should be the first place to look for the problem. Whether H SA or Tabacuba wears that hat is unimportant to me.

Good as always to hear your views! -Piggy

[Kenf13]

All my sticks no matter supplier get a trip to the freezer.

[Fugu]

On 05/09/2016 at 2:34 AM, gweilgi said:

Secondly, why is it then that 5th Avenue still insists on deep-freezing all their imports before distribution?  This is a not inconsiderable cost and risk to the cigars that could easily be saved ... if they had the confidence in Cuban QC procedures.  Which they clearly do not.

If you washed your car and then went on a 500-mile highway trip... - at the destination, your shiny car-finish adorned with cracked insects, will you insist it will have to be still nice, clean and polished, simply because you washed it just the day before?! Or - when you went for the 'gents', will you skip your hand washing, knowing they have been clean before?

Same with beetles: The tobacco beetle is cosmopolitan. It can enter the stash at any stage during shipment. Every treatment is about minimizing risks. So, it is of course an additional insurance of some importers, when freezing the goods received from overseas again before taking them up into their own warehouses, although it had been frozen in Cuba before. That is not a sign of distrust, it is a sign of diligence and scrupulous mercantile acting.

[Fugu]

Piggy, my dear friend, perhaps you were a tad too occupied with making your own points than actually listening to what I or others have said. Otherwise, you had noticed that I was precise about distinguishing between Habanos SA and Tabacuba, defining tasks and responsibilities of both entities. I was expressly pointing at freezing and storage, a part of the business lying in the sole responsibility of HSA - not Tabacuba! Now you guys want to get into a general discussion of quality control in manufacturing. We had that many times before and we can debate that again, sure, I have my differentiated view about it. But - I have to repeat myself - that wasn't the point here. It is about freezing and storage (cf. topic title). 1. Because it is not a "socialist" company being in charge of that, 2. the facilities have been set up by- and with- and are working to- normal western standards. And there are third "western" entities having a strong genuine interest in that it is being utilized (amongst others, it is a matter of the passing of risk and liability, which is a very special case with perishable goods infested with little time bombs...).

The aim of a joint-venture is providing capital for moving things, for things to actually "happen", for mutual benefit, not for the benevolence of charity. Yes, this is even holding for business with Cuba! It's an undertaking as capitalistic as it could possibly be (look back in history, there have been agreements with communist Cuba even well before the foundation of HSA). There is nothing that would make one, make me suspect a particular "communist" flaw in its operation. At least no more and no less than in any other country/economy. And certainly not to lesser standards as in Nicaragua or Honduras, mentioned in a previous post. There is no higher risk (actually rather the contrary) of beetles occurring in CCs as in cigars of any other provenance.

22 hours ago, PigFish said:

But, if the facilities are located on Isla Cuba, and the Cubans (meaning Tabacuba) run it,

HSA runs it.
 

However, - a general remark - to put this clear, this is not about one's personal political orientation here, left or right, even if you might think you read something between the lines. I am not interested in such a debate, actually I am bored with it. We both don't need to debate the political system in Cuba - as I think we will share a very similar view. I was trying to give a brief representation of a particular situation for a certain part of an industry in Cuba. Completely free of any personal valuation and certainly free of any general system-critique. Arguing about socialism/communism and trying to relate that to the warehouse operation of HSA is but nonsense, that was my sole point, has always been. And I stand by that. The warehouse is nothing else than a quasi-bridgehead for the major importers on the island.

Tobacco beetle really is a non-issue for the consumer today, Piggy. And I feel that this topic is just not suited as an argument for a debate of political systems... haha . It simply is NOT related to it. As much as you perhaps like it to be (in your shabby preoccupied capitalistic view... ). No, seriously, just check out e.g. the repeated posts of Rob alone on that matter - and he handles quite a few boxes. Being full in-line with the personal experience of people (customers and retailers) provisioning through the official logistic channels in Europe. Most reports of beetles you see in the worldwideweb, I'd say 99%, have their cause in the responsibility of the end consumer, not HSA, if you look deeper into the details (where available). In all the years, I'd yet have to see a proven report (and haven't seen one on this forum either) of a bug infestation from a box directly obtained through the normal HSA-logistics (meaning e.g. HSA-Coprova-Retail, HSA-H&F-Retail, HSA-5thAve..., HSA-Cubacigar..., HSA-PCC... just to mention a few of the larger ones). There is not a single report that I know of! If you know of one proven one, please let us all know. That doesn't rule out the odd exception, granted, but that you will potentially find everywhere. Most infestations I have read about, were stemming either from infestations through poorly-run shops (in particular Southern Europe...) or from uncontrolled mixing cigars of different provenance (customs, trades etc.) in ones own stash. I for one yet have to see a living beetle or larva, and I do not freeze anything that is coming in through the official importers, neither do I with stock from my local B&M (where I am customer since almost 25 years).

Goo

 

[Fugu]

On 05/09/2016 at 3:04 AM, CaptainQuintero said:

That is something I've always wondered about; the UK catalogue has improved sightly but there are vast swathes of the catalogue not available there. Germany in contrast seems to have everything.

LGC is not there, QDO wasn't until recently, a lot of the cheaper ranges eg mille fleurs, a lot of the Partagas and RyJ cheapies, Por Larranaga only has the PLPC etc

I don't know if it's simply a choice to not import them (I'm sure they could stock them if they wished) or something else unseen

Yes I think it is both. Has its particular historical reasons I guess.

[PigFish]

8 minutes ago, Fugu said:

Piggy, my dear friend, perhaps you were a tad too occupied with making your own points than actually listening to what I or others have said. Otherwise, you had noticed that I was precise about distinguishing between Habanos SA and Tabacuba, defining tasks and responsibilities of both entities. I was expressly pointing at freezing and storage, a part of the business lying in the sole responsibility of HSA - not Tabacuba! Now you guys want to get into a general discussion of quality control in manufacturing. We had that many times before and we can debate that again, sure, I have my differentiated view about it. But - I have to repeat myself - that wasn't the point here. It is about freezing and storage (cf. topic title). 1. Because it is not a "socialist" company being in charge of that, 2. the facilities have been set up by- and with- and are working to- normal western standards. And there are third "western" entities having a strong genuine interest in that it is being utilized (amongst others, it is a matter of the passing of risk and liability, which is a very special case with perishable goods infested with little time bombs...).

The aim of a joint-venture is providing capital for moving things, for things to actually "happen", for mutual benefit, not for the benevolence of charity. Yes, this is even holding for business with Cuba! It's an undertaking as capitalistic as it could possibly be (look back in history, there have been agreements with communist Cuba even well before the foundation of HSA). There is nothing that would make one, make me suspect a particular "communist" flaw in its operation. At least no more and no less than in any other country/economy. And certainly not to lesser standards as in Nicaragua or Honduras, mentioned in a previous post. There is no higher risk (actually rather the contrary) of beetles occurring in CCs as in cigars of any other provenance.

HSA runs it.
 

However, - a general remark - to put this clear, this is not about one's personal political orientation here, left or right, even if you might think you read something between the lines. I am not interested in such a debate, actually I am bored with it. We both don't need to debate the political system in Cuba - as I think we will share a very similar view. I was trying to give a brief representation of a particular situation for a certain part of an industry in Cuba. Completely free of any personal valuation and certainly free of any general system-critique. Arguing about socialism/communism and trying to relate that to the warehouse operation of HSA is but nonsense, that was my sole point, has always been. And I stand by that. The warehouse is nothing else than a quasi-bridgehead for the major importers on the island.

Tobacco beetle really is a non-issue for the consumer today, Piggy. And I feel that this topic is just not suited as an argument for a debate of political systems... haha . It simply is NOT related to it. As much as you perhaps like it to be (in your shabby preoccupied capitalistic view... ). No, seriously, just check out e.g. the repeated posts of Rob alone on that matter - and he handles quite a few boxes. Being full in-line with the personal experience of people (customers and retailers) provisioning through the official logistic channels in Europe. Most reports of beetles you see in the worldwideweb, I'd say 99%, have their cause in the responsibility of the end consumer, not HSA, if you look deeper into the details (where available). In all the years, I'd yet have to see a proven report (and haven't seen one on this forum either) of a bug infestation from a box directly obtained through the normal HSA-logistics (meaning e.g. HSA-Coprova-Retail, HSA-H&F-Retail, HSA-5thAve..., HSA-Cubacigar..., HSA-PCC... just to mention a few of the larger ones). There is not a single report that I know of! If you know of one proven one, please let us all know. That doesn't rule out the odd exception, granted, but that you will potentially find everywhere. Most infestations I have read about, were stemming either from infestations through poorly-run shops (in particular Southern Europe...) or from uncontrolled mixing cigars of different provenance (customs, trades etc.) in ones own stash. I for one yet have to see a living beetle or larva, and I do not freeze anything that is coming in through the official importers, neither do I with stock from my local B&M (where I am customer since almost 25 years).

Goo

 

Good report and analysis mate. Thanks!

The redundancies of the procedures can be read differently of course. Trust (or lack thereof) in the process is one way to read it. Insurance and assurance is another take. I can see either point and both points.

Oh, I did read what you wrote, and I think you emphasized points (again) that we were in agreement with already (while obsessing over your sympathy to socialism, you might have missed it -LOL) and spent too much time getting to the point... -LOL

What is the first name of the guy (or gal) that runs the freezer... and when was the last time you calibrated their controls??? Does he get paid a generous capitalist wage or some merger socialist wage? -LOL

-Ray

[Smallclub]

55 minutes ago, PigFish said:

What is the first name of the guy (or gal) that runs the freezer... and when was the last time you calibrated their controls??? Does he get paid a generous capitalist wage or some merger socialist wage? -LOL

I don't think the guy or gal that runs these facilities in Honduras or Nicaragua are generously paid and have their controls calibrated more often…

In a recent issue of L'Amateur de Cigare there was a detailed report on the cuban factory that rolls (and freeze) the Guantanamera line; the pictures showed a facility that has nothing to envy to its equivalent in Honduras, DR or Nicaragua.

[PigFish]

2 minutes ago, Smallclub said:

I don't think the guy or gal that runs these facilities in Honduras or Nicaragua are generously paid and have their controls calibrated more often…

In a recent issue of L'Amateur de Cigare there was a detailed report on the cuban factory that rolls (and freeze) the Guantanamera line; the pictures showed a facility that has nothing to envy to its equivalent in Honduras, DR or Nicaragua.

I am making jokes here mate... yet certainly not indicating that your comments are unwelcome. The jab is more humor pointed at myself and my obsession for humidor controls!

Cheers! -P

[Smallclub]

1 hour ago, Fugu said:

Tobacco beetle really is a non-issue for the consumer today, Piggy.

Being full in-line with the personal experience of people (customers and retailers) provisioning through the official logistic channels in Europe. Most reports of beetles you see in the worldwideweb, I'd say 99%, have their cause in the responsibility of the end consumer, not HSA, if you look deeper into the details (where available). In all the years, I'd yet have to see a proven report (and haven't seen one on this forum either) of a bug infestation from a box directly obtained through the normal HSA-logistics (meaning e.g. HSA-Coprova-Retail, HSA-H&F-Retail, HSA-5thAve..., HSA-Cubacigar..., HSA-PCC... just to mention a few of the larger ones). There is not a single report that I know of!

 

This.

For instance, not a single case reported on the biggest french cigar forum in the last 12+ years… (France being 2nd biggest importer)

[shlomo]

I had beetles in a box of Bolivar 681 purchased from lcdh in that region. Box was in my possesion for only a few weeks before I saw them.

[gweilgi]

7 hours ago, Fugu said:

If you washed your car and then went on a 500-mile highway trip... - at the destination, your shiny car-finish adorned with cracked insects, will you insist it will have to be still nice, clean and polished, simply because you washed it just the day before?! Or - when you went for the 'gents', will you skip your hand washing, knowing they have been clean before?

Same with beetles: The tobacco beetle is cosmopolitan. It can enter the stash at any stage during shipment. Every treatment is about minimizing risks. So, it is of course an additional insurance of some importers, when freezing the goods received from overseas again before taking them up into their own warehouses, although it had been frozen in Cuba before. That is not a sign of distrust, it is a sign of diligence and scrupulous mercantile acting.

That being so, it is only sensible to do the same as a retail customer.... 

Maybe I am simply paranoid, but I have had a couple of full-blown infestations over the years, and it ain't pretty.  So for me at least, it's a whole lot less hassle and worry to freeze whatever I buy (or at least to quarantine the singles) than to have to go through my entire stock and check every single cigar -- including those RyJ Cedros and the tissue-wrapped Fonsecas -- for dust and holes, then freeze the lot.  

On top of that, it tends to annoy Her Indoors when she goes to the fridge-freezer to discover that instead of milk and groceries, it's packed with cigars.... that sort of aggro, I prefer to live without!  

[Fugu]

15 hours ago, gweilgi said:

That being so, it is only sensible to do the same as a retail customer.... 

There is virtually zero chance on the way from my suppliers to my door.

(Mate, it is a huge difference if goods are voyaged within containers on vessels, being reloaded and temporarily stored in hubs, bonds and harbours, or whether they are individually couriered to you)

However, would I predominantly purchase in Spain, I'd probably be as cautious as you (also holding for Bulgaria... )

[PigFish]

23 hours ago, shlomo said:

I had beetles in a box of Bolivar 681 purchased from lcdh in that region. Box was in my possesion for only a few weeks before I saw them.

You know Goo, I was about to come out of the closet here and actually say that my confidence in H SA has moved a tick based on the comments that you and SC have made on this thread. While I am an opinionated 'bitch' I am not beyond the realm of learning... changing!

I don't expect you to explain this, or argue with another member about it. This is not your problem and certainly not your role (to convince me), but you have proxied for H SA with a high degree of confidence here! You were moving the needle, at least with me! Facts trump my distrust... Well, they did for a short while!

Regardless the reason, this is why I don't trust data coming from that island.

It is too damn bad too. I was just patting myself on the back for accepting a change in opinion, congratulating myself for being openminded! -LOL Then Slo-mo here rained on my parade!!!

I think I might have to call a few dozen LCdH and ask their opinion!!! -LOL What do you think? Can a guru help me out here? What would MRN say? How do you explain the difference in opinions? Is is safe to smoke in the moonlight? Do gamma rays affect the smoking experience???

-the Pig

 

[Fugu]

Haha, no, no Piggy, pleeease! Keep to your new found open-mindedness. I shall compliment you!

 

So what?! Is there anything that would truly contradict previous statements? Even if Shlomo's Boli 681 may indeed have slipped through....

In brief, two aspects:

1. you probably missed my hint

5 hours ago, Fugu said:

However, would I predominantly purchase in Spain, I'd probably be as cautious as you (also holding for Bulgaria... )

I think there is no avail in dissecting Shlomo's post. Let's take it as it is. Can't comment on the logistics in Bulgaria (no offence, fellow Bulgarians!) and the whereabouts of this release, and who the main importer is for Bulgaria (well you can probably check that on the HSA website, but how is their storage organized, do they mix different provenance etc.). Also, perhaps the date when Shlomo actually purchased that box might give us a clue. Has it been freshly received from boxdate or has it sat on the shelves of importer or in said Casa for a while? I bet chances are high it is a postprod-infestation from outside Cuba. But well, nevermind, let's just take that as granted and as a proven case of mishandling by HSA, ok! And - I have to admit - you might still attribute it to the responsibility of HSA if they don't control their franchisees.

2. point - citation taken from gweilgi's report in this thread.

On 03/09/2016 at 8:48 AM, gweilgi said:

I've seen a few boxes with beetle holes over the years, and I've witnessed three outbreaks of beetles at a B&M merchant (a casa de cabanas, no less).  The first was traced to an infested box of non-Cubans (CAO, if memory serves).

What does that tell us then? An infested box of CAO, so seems to happen in NCs as well? Socialist/Cuban causality?! Weak reasoning, isn't it?

I guess, we have to rather take that as a case of the exception proving the rule, if at all that has been a HSA-fault anyway (perhaps eventually more reports will be popping up now, we shall see... looking forward to it, haha). It shouldn't happen in NCs if we were to find a reasoning in the political system for a distrust in cigar freezing-operations. Can we agree on that?

And I think we can all agree on the perfect first reply by CQ in this thread, as a universal advice with regard to freezing:

On 02/09/2016 at 5:33 PM, CaptainQuintero said:

 if you're concerned and it gives you peace of mind then go for it.