Wrappers look dry and horrible after 1 month in wineador

[Cep]

So is it normal for the wrappers to look so fugly compared to fresh wet smokes?

They don't make much crackle at all if you roll them gently.  But they sure look different that when I got them.  

Attached a not so great pic fresh cigar and 1 month old cigar.  

Wineador is at 62f 63-65 rh.  No I can't say it's 100% conditions.   

I Remember reading a post talking about "If you don't mind the way they look lower rh is great"     

Seriously though I'm a bit depressed over this ATM.   

Right looks oily. 

Left looks like cardboard.   

[foursite12]

Continue your medication and give the cigars another month or so to settle down.  I've seen wrappers and veins wrinkle and sometimes pop out in a little higher relief when changing climates but yours appear to be not too bad, honestly. Time is your friend in this case.

[jonescej]

Every cigar is different. Some take longer to acclimatize to the new humidor conditions than others. Some are simply never going to look great. If you give them 30-60 days and you're reasonably sure conditions are good (cool, dry room/ 62-69 rh in the humidor) then trust that they have been well cared for and simply appreciate the cigars for the special little snowflakes they are

If you are very concerned with a lush, oily wrapper and vibrant color, our host might be able to help with that... just sayin'

[jwr0201]

Looks normal - partagas tend to be a little on the fugly side, but sure taste amazing!

[zeedubbya]

I went through same pains as you when I dropped my RH down to 60 a few months ago.  I sent a few nervous emails to Piggy asking for reassurance.  They're just now starting to come around in appearance.  It seems the cigars have to have time to acclimate to new storage conditions (as others have stated).  

The only advice I would have is that your temp may be a little low at 62 DF.  Piggy has a chart which shows moisture content and its relation to temperature and RH and I seem to recall the relationship between 65DF and 60 RH being on the higher end of the percentage moisture content spectrum while 70 DF and 60 RH was a lower moisture content.  As the temp went up the percentage moisture content went down. Makes logical sense.  Since we're talking about a range of between 8-16% the argument has been tossed around that a 1% change in percentage moisture content is fairly significant.  

I made the adjustment up to 70 DF when I went to 60 RH because of Piggys advice and the chart.  Although he always makes the caveat that it's a chart for other tobacco and not CC tobacco, but it sounds like he and @Fugu are working on data for our beloved CC tobacco.  Maybe one of them will jump on here and tell me if I'm right or off base, and maybe elaborate some.  Ultimately it really does come down to what you like best, but a lot of experience on here convinced me to go to 60/70 and I'm really happy I did.  My cigars are smoking better than ever, I don't ever anticipate changing it.  I'm now looking to Piggy for a more precise system to have greater control over making sure the temp and RH stay where they are. 

[Corylax18]

One thing to keep in mind. Your personal preferences. I know Piggy has a few storage units full of old RH/Temp experiments, and old "experimental" wineadors that weren't perfect for him. He has found (or is still inching closer to) his ideal. HIS (or anybody else's) ideal may not be YOUR ideal. 

Store them however you want, within a reasonable range, in an attempt to ensure your cigars are enjoyable for you. Your wineador is for keeping your cigars perfectly smokable for you, not for spending extra time, money and stress trying to keep at somebody else's calculated "perfect"

[Cep]

Thx for the replies. 

Re: 70f  I'm just a tad paranoid of the beetles.  Of course I could freeze sticks first but don't really have a good way to do that where I live.   

My main concern was just the change in appearance and if it was possibly normal or not.  

[subport]

Im around 70-72F yearly. Rarely goes up to 74F. Never seen a damn beetle in a decade. (Not even freezing my boxes) just sayin

[Fugu]

On 21/08/2016 at 3:22 PM, zeedubbya said:

Maybe one of them will jump on here

All I can comment on the OPs post right now, is that I'd indeed be concerned about such a sudden change of a stick's appearence in such a short period of time (1 month if I get that right) under his particular conditions. This is indicating "change" and sudden transition, which never is a good sign. What you are looking for in storage is stability.

I wouldn't have a clearcut answer to that observation, other than that perhaps his conditions are not very stable (perhaps cycling with rather large amplitudes), which is not being reflected by his monitoring instruments. I'd suspect this to be playing a more important role in this observation than the level of his absolute (average) conditions. And OP ist currently storing more on the higher rH-side (edit: was meant to read...) moisture-side anyway.

I have never observed such, even after years of storage (you may have a look at the review section in a minute for an example), other than sticks gradually, i.e. over years, losing some or all of their original sheen and undergoing a little shrinking. But always nothing too obvious and never within a few weeks.

[zeedubbya]

26 minutes ago, Fugu said:

All I can comment on the OPs post right now, is that I'd indeed be concerned about such a sudden change of a stick's appearence in such a short period of time (1 month if I get that right) under his particular conditions. This is indicating "change" and sudden transition, which never is a good sign. What you are looking for in storage is stability.

I wouldn't have a clearcut answer to that observation, other than that perhaps his conditions are not very stable (perhaps cycling with rather large amplitudes), which is not being reflected by his monitoring instruments. I'd suspect this to be playing a more important role in this observation than the level of his absolute (average) conditions. And OP ist currently storing more on the higher rH-side anyway.

I have never observed such, even after years of storage (you may have a look at the review section in a minute for an example), other than sticks gradually, i.e. over years, losing some or all of their original sheen and undergoing a little shrinking. But always nothing too obvious and never within a few weeks.

So you believe the OPs original complaint of wrappers losing the sheen and looking like cardboard could potentially be caused by a large amount of cooling cycles in a short period of time (how I would interpret large amplitude)?  What might you suggest as a solution to this problem assuming OP wants to keep his temp at around 62 DF.  Lower ambient temperature?  I am interested in learning about this and it might also be nice to solve Ceps issue, and have a future record on here.  

[Smallclub]

53 minutes ago, Fugu said:

I have never observed such, even after years of storage

And me neither but I have often observed the opposite effect; remember the trand for porcelain jars in the late 90's and early 2000's? People used jars to give a shiny, glossy, greasy look to the cigars, and it worked. There was a price to pay: the risk of getting over-humidified cigars…

I have a Piedra metallic jar with a small humidification device (foam), and it transforms the ugliest driest Piedra/Quintero wrapper in a premium oily wrapper grown in Robaina's farm within a week…

[Cep]

Interesting.  

My ambient temperature is just below 70f. Wineador set at max temp of 64f  (but seems to stay lower than max setting)  

However I have also noticed similar results in my desktop humidor.  68-70f using 65% boveda bags and it's always at 65.   It sits inside a cupboard that seems to always be at 60 rh and 69f.  

I have also noticed that all my bands become loose and just slide right off.  

I smoked said d4 this morning and it tasted ahite.  

 

I suppose cooler could be cycling too much.  I was hoping that 70f would be coold enough to maintain 62-63f without too much difficulty.  

One more thing I have multiple 65 boveda bags and half pound of hcm 65% beads in cooler.  

I must admit that when I add new boxes in it causes my rh to drop.  Normally.  It can sit at 62 rh for couple days.  I then add in a sponge with a bit of distilled water for 12 hours and then after a day it will be steady at 65 rh again, pretty constant.   

So I have been up and down with humidity lately.  Hmmmm.  Maybe that is the reason. ?

[Fugu]

1 hour ago, zeedubbya said:

So you believe the OPs original complaint of wrappers losing the sheen and looking like cardboard could potentially be caused by a large amount of cooling cycles in a short period of time (how I would interpret large amplitude)?  What might you suggest as a solution to this problem assuming OP wants to keep his temp at around 62 DF.  Lower ambient temperature?  I am interested in learning about this and it might also be nice to solve Ceps issue, and have a future record on here.  

No, I don't believe, I am assuming. But that would be my only current explanation, without knowing much more details. As much as I'd like to help and give a definite answer and advice, all I can do is speculate here. What it would need would be a log of temperature and humidity, or at least a tighter manual reading in short temporal intervals. Provided (!) the instrumentation isn't crap.

A cooling cycle with a comparatively large amplitude and in particular if coming along with a slow cycling (long period), would lead the stock to permanently fluctuate between different temperatures. While this might still be a good deal away of being problematic in terms of humidity condensation, the direct effect of the continually changing temperature will act mechanically onto the sticks. That's why it is so important to have a decent regulation when actively cooling.

But as I said, this is all speculation at this moment. Perhaps Piggy will chyme in, when he is in the shape (hopefully, mate!) to do so. May be, there are other members here having made a similar experience like the OP?

[Fugu]

21 minutes ago, Cep said:

However I have also noticed similar results in my desktop humidor.  68-70f using 65% boveda bags and it's always at 65.   It sits inside a cupboard that seems to always be at 60 rh and 69f.

Cep, do I get that right, you say, you observe the same dull wrapper transition in your desktop humidor without active cooling?

Hmm, puzzling...

[Fugu]

2 hours ago, Smallclub said:

And me neither but I have often observed the opposite effect; remember the trand for porcelain jars in the late 90's and early 2000's? People used jars to give a shiny, glossy, greasy look to the cigars, and it worked. There was a price to pay: the risk of getting over-humidified cigars…

I have a Piedra metallic jar with a small humidification device (foam), and it transforms the ugliest driest Piedra/Quintero wrapper in a premium oily wrapper grown in Robaina's farm within a week…

Funny, you mentioning Robaina, I have just posted a review...

[Cep]

@Fugu similar but not to the same extent.   I will have to verify that over the next while.  

Sensors are good. Well i think they are.  I have 3 different units, caliber 4 , hygroset2,  and a cheaper unit I bought recently.  They all tell me the same thing if that means anything.  

 

At this point it's likely that I will ditch my attempt at active cooling.  I will just unplug it or use it for wine lol and buy a cooler to use for the few boxes I have in there.   

[Fugu]

Hmmm, yes perhaps an idea, since your ambient temperatures appear fine. But since you say you get similar results from your desktop that might not be the (sole) cause. Would be really interesting to get a log from your wineador to see, what is actually going on. At least you could regularly check the Min-Max readings and see what that gets you.

As an ultimate solution, you can always unplug, but it would be nicer of course to have the cause of that issue identified. And it would be a shame if you wouldn't use the wineador, although it perhaps is working fine.

[Philc2001]

Thx for the replies. 

Re: 70f  I'm just a tad paranoid of the beetles.  Of course I could freeze sticks first but don't really have a good way to do that where I live.   

My main concern was just the change in appearance and if it was possibly normal or not.  

I don't run my winedor any more, I switched it off about 10 years ago and never looked back. Now I keep a quarantine cooler and put all new stock in there for 3-4 weeks before I let them mingle with the general population. And that's usually after they've been in 80-100 DF in transit to me in S. Florida.

My cigars now rest in ~75-76 avg DF, and ~65-68 RH. They sometimes see 80 DF when we're away for more than a day and I set the thermostat higher. Not a single outbreak of beetles in 10 years, and they smoke great.

Give them some time to acclimate and then smoke away.


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[Cep]

I actually have these results from last 4 weeks.  

Min temp 61.1  max 63.4 

Min rh 59.  Max is 75 but thats cuz I added a wet sponge.  

 

 

[Cep]

I've gone completely insane over the last couple hours.   

Gonna use the wine cooler unplugged.   Will be stable at 70f 65 rh.  

Hopefully my smokes aren't destroyed completely.   

Would one expect wrappers to eventually moisten at these settings?  Or would dry wrappers require more moisture than that? 

[zeedubbya]

Brother Cep relax.  Your cigars are most certainly not destroyed.  I would like to show you something.  Take a look at the pics below.  Identical no flash pictures and flash pictures.  You want to feel better about your cigars take a flash picture of them!  You may be pleasantly surprised. The flash is very flattering to the wrappers.  My point is looks can be very deceiving, if you're within the correct range (which you are) don't stress yourself so much, they'll be fine.  Really they will be.  It's all good.  

 

[Anth87]

I had the same problem with my wineador - turned it on and cigars went funny - I too unplugged it and just control humidity with bovedas - sometimes temps get to 24 c but never any dramas with mould or beetles

[Philc2001]

At that temp/RH they will be fine. Just give it time.


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[Fugu]

13 hours ago, Cep said:

I've gone completely insane over the last couple hours.

Mate, absolutely no reason for that. Sorry, if I have been causing that notion. When i said, I'd be concerned, I was rather aiming at long-term storage under variable conditions. Your sticks won't be destroyed by that, not in a month, not within half a year. But you should make sure that you are getting it under control (whatever it is...).

13 hours ago, Cep said:

Gonna use the wine cooler unplugged.   Will be stable at 70f 65 rh

Should be all right!

However, would have been very interesting to learn more about the behaviour of your wineador.

13 hours ago, Cep said:

Would one expect wrappers to eventually moisten at these settings?  Or would dry wrappers require more moisture than that?

I actually don't think you were facing a problem of dry wrappers. The dull look seems to have a different cause, since as I said, under your current conditions (i.e. 62° F and 63-65% rH), they are certainly not stored 'dry'. And you mentioned, you didn't notice crackling wrappers. So, dryness surely is not the issue here.

I'd rather think that a variabilty in conditions, as I speculated upon above, lead to an alteration in the microstructure of the wrapper and/or the distribution of oils on it (imagine a sort of pumping/breathing effect with a permenent slight expanding and constricting of tissues).

So, to be very clear again - your observation is probably an indicator of some sort of problem, but hasn't done any harm to your sticks so far.

[Cep]

ok, thx all for the replies  very much