Dry Boxing

[Ethernut]

21 minutes ago, backbone said:

So the Habanos insert that comes in boxes states that the cigars should be stored between 65RH and 70RH for best results.

I like them at 60RH.

Any opinions on this?

The patron saints of the leaf here will universally (from what I've seen) find their sweet spot at or under 65%. Rob's own warehouse is at 65%, I'm sure to comply with LCDH standards as a reseller. Rob prefers less than 65% tho.. 

See this post on the topic for great info. Rob runs lower humidity for skinny cigars than he does for fat ones as his personal preference. A true connoisseur. 

 

[joeypots]

19 hours ago, joeypots said:

The big humidor is kept at approximately 65% RH. Cigars are moved to a desk top kept at 60%RH as needed.

Of course it gets complicated........

Try keeping any humidor at 60%RH in the heat and humidity we have had this summer. I have always had more difficulty keeping my humidor's RH down than up. So during the warm months a dry box, or humidor at 60% is a necessity. 

[Fugu]

3 hours ago, fabes said:

I'm curious to hear you thoughts on why. If the assumption for long-term aging is to preserve the best qualities of the cigar over the longest period of time so as to end up with the best result possible, then wouldn't you also want to smoke them at that same optimum point? If you then have to lower or raise the rh for smoking preference then there is a short-term change which could possibly negate the long-term effort. I've heard this theory before and so I'm curious to hear someone articulate it. 

Of course, glad to do so, Fabes. The question why conditions of storage and consumption need not coincide in the same spot is quite an easy one to answer: Because we are looking at / looking for very different effects:

As you say, storage aims at the best long-term preservation, and - perhaps, ...as some believe in it, some don't... - further maturing and developing with transformation of burn- and aroma-active components. For smoking, combustion plays a / the main role. Combustion is strongly controlled by water content. Storage is as well considerably influenced by water content. However, both are completely different processes that have nothing in common. If storage and burn would be at their optimum at the same material moisture - and I am not dismissing such possibility here, my statements are of theoretical nature being absolutely neutral in their valuation, as they also depend on personal preference - then this were by pure chance.

Take the, apparently highly popular, but rather weak milk analogy of above, providing quite the argument for the opposite as intended: Let's assume a rather usual figure here - milk stored in the fridge and then being heated for consumption. What's wrong about that, I ask? Do we have to conclude then that milk is always best being stored @ 50°C, just because we prefer to drink our milk or hot chocolate at that temp?! Or milk only ever to be served fridge-chilled? Of course not...

Other example - as is often taken for comparison with tobacco - wine. Long-term storage preferably somewhere between 11 and 14 °C. However, though nowadays being served and drunk cooler as in the past, you still won't take your brick-rimmed red that chilled. A good Riesling I can open to let oxygen do its work, and then drink over two to three or even four days and follow its magical development. More often than not, the best sip is not the one first day, straight off the cellar at conditions of its storage...

Virgin olive oil - best stored in the fridge to slow down oxidation - however, hardly consumable while certain lipids crystallize. Nothing wrong with warming up to room temp prior to consumption. Organoleptic properties will be better as when chilled.

Technical example for moisture: Mortar - best stored and preserved absolutely bone-dry - but only functional when wetted.... There is a multitude of examples here, I bet you'll find even better ones.

Short and sweet: Best conditions of storage and 'function' do not always go hand in hand.

With a short-term dry-boxing, if deemed necessary, I really don't see any issue for a cigar, as you really alter nothing than its water content and even get rid of any accumulated ammonia in a freshy.

[PigFish]

21 minutes ago, Fugu said:

Of course, glad to do so, Fabes. The question why conditions of storage and consumption need not coincide in the same spot is quite an easy one to answer: Because we are looking at / looking for very different effects:

As you say, storage aims at the best long-term preservation, and - perhaps, ...as some believe in it, some don't... - further maturing and developing with transformation of burn- and aroma-active components. For smoking, combustion plays a / the main role. Combustion is strongly controlled by water content. Storage is as well considerably influenced by water content. However, both are completely different processes that have nothing in common. If storage and burn would be at their optimum at the same material moisture - and I am not dismissing such possibility here, my statements are of theoretical nature being absolutely neutral in their valuation, as they also depend on personal preference - then this were by pure chance.

Take the, apparently highly popular, but rather weak milk analogy of above, providing quite the argument for the opposite as intended: Let's assume a rather usual figure here - milk stored in the fridge and then being heated for consumption. What's wrong about that, I ask? Do we have to conclude then that milk is always best being stored @ 50°C, just because we prefer to drink our milk or hot chocolate at that temp?! Or milk only ever to be served fridge-chilled? Of course not...

Other example - as is often taken for comparison with tobacco - wine. Long-term storage preferably somewhere between 11 and 14 °C. However, though nowadays being served and drunk cooler as in the past, you still won't take your brick-rimmed red that chilled. A good Riesling I can open to let oxygen do its work, and then drink over two to three or even four days and follow its magical development. More often than not, the best sip is not the one first day, straight off the cellar at conditions of its storage...

Virgin olive oil - best stored in the fridge to slow down oxidation - however, hardly consumable while certain lipids crystallize. Nothing wrong with warming up to room temp prior to consumption. Organoleptic properties will be better as when chilled.

Technical example for moisture: Mortar - best stored and preserved absolutely bone-dry - but only functional when wetted.... There is a multitude of examples here, I bet you'll find even better ones.

Short and sweet: Best conditions of storage and 'function' do not always go hand in hand.

With a short-term dry-boxing, if deemed necessary, I really don't see any issue for a cigar, as you really alter nothing than its water content and even get rid of any accumulated ammonia in a freshy.

I think that is about as good an analysis that I have ever seen on a cigar board. Nice writing my friend!

Apart from the aspects of personal taste, and unlike conditions which can be empirically proven, water content in dried foods, dried goods and other samples you have given, all specifics about storage for 'aging' (beyond the obvious limits that would destroy the substance) are just speculation!!!

Again, good reply!!! -Ray

[cashews39]

Wow..very interesting and logical perspectives.


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[Danimalia]

I'm working on my storage to get the RH a bit lower, but in the meantime, I do tend to pull my smoking cigars and put them into an empty box for a bit before smoking. Anywhere from 8-48 hours, generally, depending on when I get around to smoking them. I don't have any rhyme or reason to it, other than being easily annoyed by a cigar that requires too much attention with the burn. 

[stogieluver]

2 hours ago, Danimalia said:

I'm working on my storage to get the RH a bit lower, but in the meantime, I do tend to pull my smoking cigars and put them into an empty box for a bit before smoking. Anywhere from 8-48 hours, generally, depending on when I get around to smoking them. I don't have any rhyme or reason to it, other than being easily annoyed by a cigar that requires too much attention with the burn. 

But what is the ambient rH?  If the empty box is just sitting on a table in your home, and the ambient rH is more than the rH in your humidor...well, you get my point.  You're only making the outcome worth the effort if your dry box's rH is 55%-60%, depending heavily on the temperature in they dry box.  If your home is centrally cooled, your ambient rH is probably around 55% if your air conditioning system is operating properly.  If your room temp is, say 70f and your ambient rH is 55%, then you are making the outcome, i.e. a cigar that burns and taste good, worth the effort, assuming you aren't then taking that cigar outside into 90% humidity and 90f temps to smoke.

All of this is my opinion only, and should only be applied to Cuban cigars.  I noticed in your introduction that you stated that you've had burn and other issues with Cuban cigars.  That could be due to storage at too high an rH.  Non Cuban cigars can be stored at a higher rH, most probably are stored at 70-72% rH.  That's way too high for storage of CC's.  Also, CC's are affected by smoking conditions more than non Cubans, I think due to the thinner wrapper.  So, any advice taken or given should always be conditioned upon whether you're talking about Cubans or nonCubans.  JMHO.  Disclaimer: I am certainly no expert.  Just things I've learned from smoking nonCubans for 15+ years and switching exclusively to Cubans for the past five years.

[Colt45]

21 minutes ago, stogieluver said:

If the empty box is just sitting on a table in your home, and the ambient rH is more than the rH in your humidor...well, you get my point.

I was told to get air conditioning......

[Danimalia]

2 hours ago, stogieluver said:

But what is the ambient rH?  If the empty box is just sitting on a table in your home, and the ambient rH is more than the rH in your humidor...well, you get my point.  You're only making the outcome worth the effort if your dry box's rH is 55%-60%, depending heavily on the temperature in they dry box.  If your home is centrally cooled, your ambient rH is probably around 55% if your air conditioning system is operating properly.  If your room temp is, say 70f and your ambient rH is 55%, then you are making the outcome, i.e. a cigar that burns and taste good, worth the effort, assuming you aren't then taking that cigar outside into 90% humidity and 90f temps to smoke.

All of this is my opinion only, and should only be applied to Cuban cigars.  I noticed in your introduction that you stated that you've had burn and other issues with Cuban cigars.  That could be due to storage at too high an rH.  Non Cuban cigars can be stored at a higher rH, most probably are stored at 70-72% rH.  That's way too high for storage of CC's.  Also, CC's are affected by smoking conditions more than non Cubans, I think due to the thinner wrapper.  So, any advice taken or given should always be conditioned upon whether you're talking about Cubans or nonCubans.  JMHO.  Disclaimer: I am certainly no expert.  Just things I've learned from smoking nonCubans for 15+ years and switching exclusively to Cubans for the past five years.

 

All good information, and I appreciate it. The outside my humidor RH is considerably lower than inside, as I live in the relatively dry SF Bay Area. 

 

[PapaDisco]

14 hours ago, fabes said:

I'm curious to hear you thoughts on why. If the assumption for long-term aging is to preserve the best qualities of the cigar over the longest period of time so as to end up with the best result possible, then wouldn't you also want to smoke them at that same optimum point? If you then have to lower or raise the rh for smoking preference then there is a short-term change which could possibly negate the long-term effort. I've heard this theory before and so I'm curious to hear someone articulate it. 

Temperature and humidity contribute to the chemical changes that we experience as "aging."  At least that's how I think about it.  Now the tough part is figuring out what that right temperature and humidity should be.  Kavalan whiskey is barrel aged at a much, much higher temperature (90-100F in the summers) than traditionally done, and (surprise surprise!) it's yielded an exceptional, award winning whiskey.

I don't dry box (in the States anyway, I definitely do in Vietnam), but if I liked to smoke my cigars at, say 55% rH, I don't think I would age them at such a low rH unless Zino himself rose up out of the grave and explained just how that would improve aging over 10-20-30 years.

So I store at 65/65 and light them up at the same.  Dry boxing in San Francisco would likely only reduce that to 60% anyway, unless you got a rare summer day of 55%.  In Vietnam it's a tougher call.  Anything there is going to be smoked at a high temp and humidity, or a low temp and humidity (depending on if you're indoor or outdoor) and it will all swell and suffer in your pocket on the way to wherever.  If I let sticks there acclimate to the higher outside temp and humidity I get fewer plugs and smoother smokes.  Not sure why that is, but whenever I take a stick straight from my humi at 65/65 to (a couple of hours later) the roof at the Rex at 90/90, I get a lot of plugs and a lot more "bite" in the smoke.  The same stick left in my hotel room with the air conditioning off (when I'm gone to the office) for 2-3 days is just fine when smoked on the roof.  It's a mystery!

[Danimalia]

3 hours ago, PapaDisco said:

In Vietnam it's a tougher call.  Anything there is going to be smoked at a high temp and humidity, or a low temp and humidity (depending on if you're indoor or outdoor) and it will all swell and suffer in your pocket on the way to wherever.  If I let sticks there acclimate to the higher outside temp and humidity I get fewer plugs and smoother smokes.  Not sure why that is, but whenever I take a stick straight from my humi at 65/65 to (a couple of hours later) the roof at the Rex at 90/90, I get a lot of plugs and a lot more "bite" in the smoke.  The same stick left in my hotel room with the air conditioning off (when I'm gone to the office) for 2-3 days is just fine when smoked on the roof.  It's a mystery!

It sounds like that kind of intermediate step between humidor and full on outdoor temps/humidity smooths out the transition. That's a trip.

[GavLew79]

On 11/08/2016 at 9:36 PM, cashews39 said:

BTW - I generally keep my cigars at ~65% and have only just started experimenting with dry boxing over the past few weeks (only smoking a few cigars per week). Usually I'll use an empty cigar box for ~12 hours or so. 

What is the %rh of your enpty box?

 

19 hours ago, cashews39 said:

 

Not sure. I suppose it's whatever the rh is in my house - it's just an empty cigar box that I keep out. The box is really there just for physical protection more than anything else now that I think about it.


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Yeah, that's what I was getting at. If you're not careful your dry box could be a wet box. 

Not sure where you live but the humidity in my house varies between 60 and 75% depending on what the weather is doing. 

I'd want a humidity regulator in that box if it were me. 

Personally, I store at 'ready to smoke' conditions. 

[Philc2001]

No dry boxing here in S. Florida, I keep cigars at ~65%. With A/C running year round the ambient RH in the house is in 40s.

[fabes]

22 hours ago, Fugu said:

With a short-term dry-boxing, if deemed necessary, I really don't see any issue for a cigar, as you really alter nothing than its water content and even get rid of any accumulated ammonia in a freshy.

 

22 hours ago, PigFish said:

Apart from the aspects of personal taste, and unlike conditions which can be empirically proven, water content in dried foods, dried goods and other samples you have given, all specifics about storage for 'aging' (beyond the obvious limits that would destroy the substance) are just speculation!!

Thank you both for the well thought responses. In general I agree Fugu, but still have question about why the careful analysis and scientific reasoning and logic applies to everything up to the "dryboxing" or transition from storage to smoking conditions. We are talking about altering water content (which accurately measuring is a whole other variable) from storage to smoking conditions. If done rapidly via dryboxing then I would suppose a rapid removal or water content would not be uniform nor desirable compared to a longer gradual removal of water content which I would think would prove the more desirable results. Then is not such a log gradual "dryboxing" bordering into "storage" after enough drying time has elapsed? It's interesting to ponder because there are so many variables and I would love to see more quantifiable answers prevail over cigar guru wives-tales, which I know you and Ray are always investigating and I thank you two. 

[MaxG]

This is a head-scratcher for me too, at best.  In virtually all the acclimatization threads, it's said cigars only gain/lose about one percentage point of RH per week.  But then some say a few hours or perhaps a day or two of dry boxing will make a noticeable difference?  Hmmm.

 

- MG

 

[PigFish]

Water content rate changes in cigars also depend on the delta (T and rH). The wider the delta, the faster the move. There is no 'programmed' rate.

I believe a 'slow rate' to be beneficial, only based on physical aspects. Could the wrapper and binder break during rapid dehydration? Yes it can, I have seen it! So rate of change provides some evidence for some caution with regards to the cigars physical construction as an 'airtight' tubular appliance. Controlling the rate of change therefore has some evidenced benefits.

In any other situation, I cannot see a difference between tobacco that is dehydrated at one rate verses another. Other than structural failure, I don't know of a lasting and physical change that takes place in tobacco due to a differential water change. The fact is, water is migrating to and from the cigar all the time. It is in an equilibrium state when stable, not a static state. I am not saying that it is impossible that some changes are not occurring, only that I am unaware of them, and certainly not aware of any proof that would cause me to think differently.

-the Pig

[Fugu]

4 hours ago, fabes said:

In general I agree Fugu, but still have question about why the careful analysis and scientific reasoning and logic applies to everything up to the "dryboxing" or transition from storage to smoking conditions.

Because cigars are usually kept for a considerably longer time in storage as in any potential dry-boxing. During storage the prevailing conditons will have a chance to act on the tobacco over a much longer period of time. So we need to be extremely careful there, while the few days prior to smoking are rather robust, almost negligible I say (mind you, we just change moisture here!). It isn't enough time to induce any considerable chemical (or structural) changes to the tobacco compared to previous storage conditions.

Changing the moisture content of a stick doesn't need a whole lot of time, can be done relatively quickly (with the cautionary note of Piggy for structural damages. But bringing a cigar from let's say 65 to 60 % rH won't put much strain on a stick). But you are quite right, one should make sure that the new moisture level is attained uniformely across the stick, to avoid tearing wrappers while smoking, when the outside (wrapper, binder) is dryer than the bunch. In general, a single or a few single sticks in a dry-box will tune in on a new moisture level rather quickly, much quicker as when acclimatizing a whole untouched box. So, we're surely a far bit off from bordering into temporal horizons of storage there.

Added general note (and on gurus...):

4 hours ago, fabes said:

It's interesting to ponder because there are so many variables and I would love to see more quantifiable answers prevail over cigar guru wives-tales, which I know you and Ray are always investigating and I thank you two.

Yes, quantifiable answers..... As you may have noticed, I avoided it to give absolute figures here, since being neither a "guru" (of course not, and don't like the expression and attitude anyway, as 'guru' rather implies for me someone, who knows it all but is not open to a continuous questioning, re-evaluating and learning) nor being any more or any less of an expert as anybody else here on the forum, who has been smoking a few cigars and has been keeping a bunch of boxes in his time.

But like many others here, I am relatively certain (not sure), about "the", or more precisely, about "my" perfect storage conditions, as much as I have a preferred smoking window with regard to tobacco moisture. I am not venturing into proselytizing others, convincing them of the only correct figure. Because - quite as Piggy continuously says - the exact or the only correct figure is difficult if not impossible to verify to scientifically sound standards. Starting with the simple fact, that we are dealing with long periods of time, and e.g. that tobacco (strains, vintages, processing, qualities...) changes over the years. Over the notion that you might even need to keep different tobacco / different cigars at different conditions, over the question of your preferred aging period, and finally ending with the simple fact of personal taste. It essentially is a personal, empirical finding, mine's being as valid as that of any other BOTL. There is no certain right or wrong (while I believe I am right of course, otherwise I wouldn't do what I do...), as the outcome may produce different results. All viable results - as long as they didn't destroy the sticks in the end - but results that do appeal to one need not necessarily appeal to another.

I guess that's the simple reason for the enduring debate on the matter.

[Anth87]

Hi all

Question - when you live in an area with high RH and high temps what is the easiest method to drop storage conditions down to 60rh?

[scap99]

24 minutes ago, Anth87 said:

Hi all

Question - when you live in an area with high RH and high temps what is the easiest method to drop storage conditions down to 60rh?

My AC keeps the indoor temps at 72F and 45% RH.

Outdoors it is currently 77F and 96% RH.

[Smallclub]

8 hours ago, scap99 said:

My AC keeps the indoor temps at 72F and 45% RH.

Outdoors it is currently 77F and 96% RH.

So your answer to Anth87's question is: "install AC in your home"? Great help

[scap99]

Just now, Smallclub said:

So your answer to Anth87's question is: "install AC in your home"? Great help

Absolutely.  I'd die if I didn't have AC.

We had over a week of triple digits outside.

[Fugu]

9 hours ago, Anth87 said:

Hi all

Question - when you live in an area with high RH and high temps what is the easiest method to drop storage conditions down to 60rh?

Assuming you don't want to install AC in your house, I'd suggest get in touch with @PigFish about desiccation capabilities of humidors... Though, might not be the "easiest" method...

[FHFinster]

I've come to most enjoy my sticks very dry thanks to @torsion Don. Keeping them dry is a difficult task considering how humid my house tends to be here in the northeast. 

My wineadors are kept at 65rh yet I maintain a desktop humi with 49% RH packs for my ready to smoke stash. It's been working great and takes between 1 and two weeks for sticks to settle into my smoking zone. 

[Cep]

Weird, my ac is always on and im at 60rh at 69f.   

Humidity is 65 outside temp is 77f

 

[alpyigit]

I have recently became a student of Piggy's Low RH school of thought and set up a humi running at 56 RH. No active temp control though, leaving that variable to my home A/C..

I do also drybox 24 hours where possible, but not in a regular basis due to my indecisive and impulsive nature when it comes to choosing what I will smoke..

Observations:

- better draw, almost no plugs
- lighter color, almost white ash production
- burn is much more uniform

All good. But I feel that I am losing some taste in the first 1/3rd.. The cigar becomes more complex for the remainder 2/3.. Possibly due to (re)accumulation of taste agents - whatever they are- of which some have been lost during the dehydration process..

I am planning to up the RH a bit to 58-60 range and test again..