UK Referendum

[losttrailer]

I was a little sad to see the outcome this morning and initially thought it would have been better for the whole idea of EU if they stayed in.

But who knows what it's good for and in the end they aren't out until they are, right ?

[ayepatz]

As a Scot who lives in England, I was against Scottish independence.

After today, it's time to say "Fuckity-bye-bye!" to the rest of the UK.

 

[CaptainQuintero]

2 hours ago, ErikB said:

What about Corbyn ? He'd rather see Cameron fail than prevent a catastrophe ? Just another politician hungry for power ?

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He's always been a die hard anti EU campaigner, he was pretty forced to campaign to remain by his party. So he was never going to put much effort into it.

He's facing a vote of no confidence now anyway!

[JohnS]

37 minutes ago, ayepatz said:

As a Scot who lives in England, I was against Scottish independence.

After today, it's time to say "Fuckity-bye-bye!" to the rest of the UK.

 

I saw Nicola Sturgeon's speech live yesterday, and I feel she summed up what most Scots are thinking after what happened yesterday with the 'Brexit'.

[CaptainQuintero]

8 hours ago, Fugu said:

A shock! When I got up this morning, I couldn't believe what I heard on the radio. Still late yesterday, all prognoses were in favour of the Remainers. Very sorry for the UK to leave, I can't express how disappointed I feel. Not so much economically, but much more politically! That's the main damage from it! It is not the EEC anymore, it is a political union. That is/was its prime aim, idea and mission.

I am sorry for friends, ex-colleagues and customers in the UK. Let's hope the Scots will now make a new attempt onto independency - and then remain in the club...

It is a sad day for Europe, the consequences of which are yet not fully to be overlooked, neither fully understood. Brought about in the first place by a shitty EU-administration and a EU-parliament lacking in communication skills - but then also by a very weak and shortsighted recent election campaign of Cameron (licking Nigel's boots) and eventually executed by a majority of ill-informed. Sad, sad day for Europe.

Have always been a strong advocate of rather trying to improving and bringing the idea forward instead of leaving and giving up on it. Britain was a heavyweight in the scale and could have brought about reforms successfully. Leaving and they are bereft of any further action.

I'm going to go out on a limb here but I honestly believe both campaigns had little to no effect on how people voted. People's minds have been up on the issue for years and years. It's why no government have a referendum as the result was already known. This one was only called because the PM thought he would never have to go through with his promise. He bet the house and lost.

The renegotiation treaty showed that there is no chance of reforming the current EU from inside. The nation's involved took it for a self interest exercise and gave as little as possible and took as much as they could they could from the UK's negotiating table. Which like you say really shows where the problem lies; the beurocracts in charge.

I hope a new system emerges from this dying project and Europeans can get a union that it deserves. Unity is obviously the future but the version that we currently have is a disgrace to what it could/should have been, it's only failed because of the greed and incompetence of those running it, not by any failure of the people it was supposed to work for.

But then again how many of us actually get politicians that we deserve!

 

[ayepatz]

18 minutes ago, JohnS said:

I saw Nicola Sturgeon's speech live yesterday, and I feel she summed up what most Scots are thinking after what happened yesterday with the 'Brexit'.

I'm working in Germany at the moment, and I've been thinking about my personal politics all day.

As I said during the Scottish Indepence debate, I have lived in England for 20 years, but I am still, first and foremost, a Scot. I didn't want to see the dissolution of the UK for the simple reason that it's a basic fact of human nature that human beings are better off, and stronger, together. I have always been in favour of the EU for the same reason.

But after today's result, I feel saddened and ashamed to be British. I feel that the Leave voters are pining after a nostalgic vision of Britain, which is revisionist, xenophobic, and morally ambiguous.

We had 400 years of so-called "Splendid Isolation", but two World Wars convinced us of the folly of that policy, yet here we are, a mere 71 years later, embracing that isolationism again.

I can't help but think that, if Europe will have us, Scotland must now, sadly, break away from the UK.

 

[Fugu]

6 hours ago, Orion21 said:

England will be fine and prosper.  Trust your people, embrace freedom and the ingenuity of the business owners.  I think England was a pretty wonderful place before joining the EU and will be once it fully extracts itself.  I think it will be a net positive in the long run for England and 10-20 years from now you all will be thanking your lucky stars you aren't party of the BIG collapse when the EU as a whole becomes irrelevant. 

Speaking about the future - a clear majority of the younger people voted for staying in..... That's their future.

[JohnS]

To quote Billy Idol, "It's a nice day for a White Wedding!" I figured today was a nice day to exchange for Euros and Pounds!  

The line-up at the Exchange Currency Bank was really long though!

 

[JohnS]

1 hour ago, ayepatz said:

I'm working in Germany at the moment, and I've been thinking about my personal politics all day.

As I said during the Scottish Indepence debate, I have lived in England for 20 years, but I am still, first and foremost, a Scot. I didn't want to see the dissolution of the UK for the simple reason that it's a basic fact of human nature that human beings are better off, and stronger, together. I have always been in favour of the EU for the same reason.

But after today's result, I feel saddened and ashamed to be British. I feel that the Leave voters are pining after a nostalgic vision of Britain, which is revisionist, xenophobic, and morally ambiguous.

We had 400 years of so-called "Splendid Isolation", but two World Wars convinced us of the folly of that policy, yet here we are, a mere 71 years later, embracing that isolationism again.

I can't help but think that, if Europe will have us, Scotland must now, sadly, break away from the UK.

 

I hear where you're coming from, ayepatz! (The) Scots have been really left in the 'lurch' with this decision. On a lighter note, does this mean you're still Scottish for tonight's Rugby test between the Poms and the Wallabies? 'Cause I'm not watching it (the game) tonight, I'm going to see a mate play a Beatles Tribute Show! (But no doubt I'll be following it in the corner of the pub on my phone, swearing at the phone, and talking gibberish while the Rugby is on!)

 

[topdiesel]

11 minutes ago, JohnS said:

To quote Billy Idol, "It's a nice day for a White Wedding!" I figured today was a nice day to exchange for Euros and Pounds!  

The line-up at the Exchange Currency Bank was really long though!

 

60 pounds and 100 euros.  Try to save some for the rest of us...

[smokeyjoe01]

Keeping £ and not adopting the € has shown to be a smart move. Perhaps that was the start of our exit. The press has run a negative campaign on the EU ever since, no wonder the majority want out. I remember the article about how the Germans had a funeral for the Deutschmark and the articles about EU directives on this and that then the fishing territory disputes, BSE and so much more. It was a surprise result but it's been a long time coming.

[gweilgi]

7 hours ago, ayepatz said:

I'm working in Germany at the moment, and I've been thinking about my personal politics all day.

As I said during the Scottish Indepence debate, I have lived in England for 20 years, but I am still, first and foremost, a Scot. I didn't want to see the dissolution of the UK for the simple reason that it's a basic fact of human nature that human beings are better off, and stronger, together. I have always been in favour of the EU for the same reason.

But after today's result, I feel saddened and ashamed to be British. I feel that the Leave voters are pining after a nostalgic vision of Britain, which is revisionist, xenophobic, and morally ambiguous.

We had 400 years of so-called "Splendid Isolation", but two World Wars convinced us of the folly of that policy, yet here we are, a mere 71 years later, embracing that isolationism again.

I can't help but think that, if Europe will have us, Scotland must now, sadly, break away from the UK.

 

People -- nations, societies -- are better off together when there is a commonality of culture, of purpose, of goals.  When that is the case, such as in Britain or the US, things can and do work.  The EU, however, is a different case.  There are different legal traditions that clash to the point of incompatibility.  There are widely divergent business cultures that do not play well together.  One-size-fits-all economic policies are prescribed that suit some countries but are disastrous for others, such as the current ECB interest rate that works a treat for the Central European nations such as France, Germany or the Netherlands but is little short of catastrophic for Southern Europe.  The political cultures, too, are vastly mismatched, ranging from strongly centralist countries such as France to heavily federalised Germany.  And above all, there is a fundamental problem with the overall legitimacy of a European Union whose citizens are asked to vote for a parliament which has no legislative powers, whose member governments treat it as a self-service arrangement for national advancement and profit (see agricultural subsidies), and the very existence of which has never been put to a popular vote in many member countries to give it sovereign legitimacy.  If you keep trying to reform an institution that is patently in urgent need of root and branch overhaul and you fail time and again, at what point does it become an exercise in futility?  

 

On a lighter note and with tongue planted firmly in  cheek, here's a short video to explain Britain's attitude to Europe:

 

[losttrailer]

9 hours ago, ayepatz said:

As a Scot who lives in England, I was against Scottish independence.

After today, it's time to say "Fuckity-bye-bye!" to the rest of the UK.

were boosting our submarine production allready to get all the refugees out of Scotland, Northern Ireland, Gibraltar and London.

Any idea how to put them to use after this is done 

[gangstarrrrr]

Hopefully what we'll see from this is what Europe should have been, a free trade zone with movement of labour and goods - essentially what the EEA countries have but without the bloated cost and bureaucracy.

[ayepatz]

7 hours ago, JohnS said:

I hear where you're coming from, ayepatz! (The) Scots have been really left in the 'lurch' with this decision. On a lighter note, does this mean you're still Scottish for tonight's Rugby test between the Poms and the Wallabies? 'Cause I'm not watching it (the game) tonight, I'm going to see a mate play a Beatles Tribute Show! (But no doubt I'll be following it in the corner of the pub on my phone, swearing at the phone, and talking gibberish while the Rugby is on!)

 

Lol. There's something about English rugby that brings out the Braveheart in all of us.

[Perla]

Found that article. Very good why it happened and what will follow.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/24/eu-vote-uk-diminished-politics-poisoned-racism

 

following the political discussion for me it's like watching the comeback of the Weimarer daemon. Xenophobia, unemployment, Social scissor, economical gaps and and. The return of unleashed monsters and daemons. Hope ther will be a happy end.

[Magpie]

17 hours ago, ayepatz said:

I'm working in Germany at the moment, and I've been thinking about my personal politics all day.

As I said during the Scottish Indepence debate, I have lived in England for 20 years, but I am still, first and foremost, a Scot. I didn't want to see the dissolution of the UK for the simple reason that it's a basic fact of human nature that human beings are better off, and stronger, together. I have always been in favour of the EU for the same reason.

But after today's result, I feel saddened and ashamed to be British. I feel that the Leave voters are pining after a nostalgic vision of Britain, which is revisionist, xenophobic, and morally ambiguous.

We had 400 years of so-called "Splendid Isolation", but two World Wars convinced us of the folly of that policy, yet here we are, a mere 71 years later, embracing that isolationism again.

I can't help but think that, if Europe will have us, Scotland must now, sadly, break away from the UK.

 

Like all referendums there is always a losing side, but that doesn't mean the outcome is necessarily bad just leaves a period of uncertainty. The EU is a screwed up project that year after year leaves national governments with less say in how to run their countries. 20 years ago I would have called myself European first and then British, but once the Scots got back into being anti establishment and loving ABE ( any one but England) I saw myself as English. Now thankfully I'm Australian. In all my years as an expat before settling in Australia, it's clear to me that Britain is a well respected economic and political power in today's ever shrinking world. I think Britain can still have that respect , to the benefit of all the home nations, even after leaving the EU political integration experiment. Why can't Britain continue to prosper whilst politically outside the EU? I don't think things willchange too much, I'm sure the remaining EU members would still love to have Britain as an ally, and at the same time the UK can explore the globe for new areas of growth. 

It will be interesting to see what happens next, perhaps all the Scots will move back to Scotland to remain in the EU with the SNP after devolution, I somewhat doubt that though.By the way a Scottish vote to remain doesn't necessarily translate into a vote to leave the UK if another referendum on independence is held, though today that probability may be higher than previously.

Australia survives perfectly well in this competitive world, why can't the UK, with or without Scotland.

lets forget scare mongering and see what come out positive for all involved,the entire UK, the EU and the rest of the world. If the English prove to have screwed it up for everyone then so be it, but I believe Britain as a whole is still an extremely enviable example to democracy, freedom of speech and will continue to welcome migrants and workers from all countries as it did before joining the EU.

enough waffling from me

 

[MaxG]

The most ridiculous, but entertaining, news report I read said "the UK is at a point it has never been before."  Really?  Could have sworn they'd not been a member of the EU some time in the past.   

 

- MG

 

[Fuzz]

2 hours ago, MaxG said:

The most ridiculous, but entertaining, news report I read said "the UK is at a point it has never been before."  Really?  Could have sworn they'd not been a member of the EU some time in the past.   

 

- MG

 

The report is accurate. The UK has never been in the position of exiting the EU.

[MaxG]

21 hours ago, Fuzz said:

The report is accurate. The UK has never been in the position of exiting the EU.

Obviously accurate denotation.  Hilariously lame connotation from a  globalist fear-monger. 

 

 

[Orion21]

On 6/24/2016 at 4:39 PM, Fugu said:

Speaking about the future - a clear majority of the younger people voted for staying in..... That's their future.

My friend the young only know the UK as being a part of the EU.  I wasn't born when the UK joined the EU, so my point of reference is the same.  It's human nature to fear change, even if the change will be positive.  The UK leaving the EU may be a disaster or it may turn out to be great, but again, I am not surprised at all the younger people voted for stay.  European governments and the EU have spent decades and billions, upon billions of Euros to develop the EU identity.  This doesn't necessarily mean it was what was best for the young people of the UK or any other European Union member country.  It's just the only reality they know. 

[potpest]

Bill Maher summed this up pretty well. 48% voted for sense and sensibility and the other 52% for pride and predujice. Its becoming apparent that the result is going to have devastating effects on the economy, job prospects and the rest of "the Young's" lives. I don't think they voted to stay because they don't like change, that is more the older generation's reason for leaving. The only difference is that they have a lot less to lose.

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[Orion21]

I thought this blog had some good insight into the statistics of the vote:

http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2016/06/24/brexit-demographic-divide-eu-referendum-results/

But this really got my attention:

Will Leave rue their decision?

Ten days before the referendum, the Centre for European Reform think tankpublished a report asking whether Leave voters may be “Brexiting [themselves] in the foot”. One of the core points was that the parts of the UK which rely the most heavily on the EU for exports were predicted to be the most anti-EU, based on analysis of the British Election Survey by academics Nick Vivyan and Chris Hanretty.

Today we reproduced the chart using the actual results rather than the projections, and the pattern holds. On average, the higher the percentage of a region’s economic output that is currently exported to the EU, the higher its Leave vote turned out to be.

[gweilgi]

3 hours ago, potpest said:

Bill Maher summed this up pretty well. 48% voted for sense and sensibility and the other 52% for pride and predujice. Its becoming apparent that the result is going to have devastating effects on the economy, job prospects and the rest of "the Young's" lives. I don't think they voted to stay because they don't like change, that is more the older generation's reason for leaving. The only difference is that they have a lot less to lose.

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Do they?  

Older people are near the end of their economically productive lives, or are fully dependent on their savings and pensions.  This means they are far less able to adapt to changes and make up for losses than young people.  A 30 year old Remain voter is in a far better position to adapt his (or her) spending, find a new job, change careers or even emigrate than his 60 year old Leave voting father.  

As for the "young versus old" claim, there is no hard data on the demographic breakdown of the proportions.  However, if past voting patterns (such as at general elections) held true for the Brexit referendum, then it isn't so much a case of "old folks robbed the young of their future" as one of young people simply not bothering to turn out to vote.

[CaptainQuintero]

14 hours ago, potpest said:

Bill Maher summed this up pretty well. 48% voted for sense and sensibility and the other 52% for pride and predujice. Its becoming apparent that the result is going to have devastating effects on the economy, job prospects and the rest of "the Young's" lives. I don't think they voted to stay because they don't like change, that is more the older generation's reason for leaving. The only difference is that they have a lot less to lose.

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There is a point to be made also that the young, again, just didn't turn out to vote. There was a polling agency report out yesterday that said if young people had turned out in the same numbers as the old then remain would have comfortably won. If you don't vote you can't complain about the result. It's not as if they had a warning with tuition fees prior. If the young had any kind of political significance then tuition fees would be ring fenced the same as pensions

But the result wasn't the fault of pensioners like it's being reported, the nation isn't made up of 52% grey haired geriatrics. The leave voters were obviously across the age spectrum and they all had just as much future as anyone else.