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Posted
16 minutes ago, Fugu said:

Well, Zig, within certain weight limits it needs no special roller's skill. That's exactly what we postulate: Keep the limits narrow!

No, not ignored, well understood - and objected. The correlation is not discontinuous.

So given correct quantities of tobacco leaves anyone can roll a cigar with perfect draw? The only qc needed then surely is someone at the start of the rolling process with a set of scales. 

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I really do not see cigar weight as a quality issue, I  have also weighed my cigars when the have arrived and have seen similar results to PigFish's. it has never bothered me, I just accept that its a

Posted
5 hours ago, Zigatoh said:

"My assumption would be that within certain weight limits the skill of the roller and how they bunch the leaves would be the defining factor."

 

My point was more that within a certain range there is no correlation, which everyone seems to have ignored. 107-147g is a lot as I also mentioned but surely if that had been 120-130 (if 125 was the target for example) then a good roller could create a well drawing cigar? Or would it have to be 123-127? or would 115-135 b3 ok?

I'm certain as well that a bad roller, or someone rolling badly at the time, could take the specified 125 grams of tobacco leaf and create either a tent peg or a wind tunnel by bunching the leaves badly.

 

 

I think you may be focusing too much on draw as a factor in performance. Draw is only one aspect of a cigar's construction and/or performance. I've had underweight cigars with soft spots and tight draws and overweight/bulging cigars with loose draws. I've had both with perfect draws. The vast majority of poorly performing cigars I've smoked had fine draws. Draw simply isn't a definitive test of construction, but it still should be tested. A good draw is necessary but is by no means sufficient for a cigar to be judged as having "good" construction. 

There is a proper, established technique and recipe for rolling cigars. It's not really subjective in terms of skill and ability. A cigar is supposed to perform perfectly. One that doesn't is flawed and has a problem(s) somewhere in the chain of production. Since in my--and many others'--experience, cigar weight is so closely correlated to performance issues, it might be a good idea to check that. Sure, there will always be some variance due to natural factors and human error of even the best rollers, but it should be far less than 28% variance. I guarantee if you went to a restaurant  and received 28% less food than the guy sitting next to you who ordered the same dish and paid the same price, you'd notice it immediately and complain loudly, and rightfully so. 

Underweight cigars have too little tobacco relative to the prescribed recipe. Overweight, too much. I am perplexed as to how this could occur, but it is clearly occurring. Weight is weight. There is already a weight guideline for each vitola established by HSA, but it wouldn't be hard to establish an acceptable range for each vitola by surveying a few thousand cigars rolled by the very top rollers under direct management supervision. I can't imagine the range being greater than 10% in those circumstances, and it should probably be closer to 5%, but a survey would determine the range among the best rollers so it could be applied and adhered to universally.

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Posted
4 hours ago, Zigatoh said:

So given correct quantities of tobacco leaves anyone can roll a cigar with perfect draw? The only qc needed then surely is someone at the start of the rolling process with a set of scales. 

Yes, exactly, that's how I want it be understood  :troll:

Just let me know once you refrain from childishness, should you wish to get back to a serious discussion on the topic.

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Posted
2 minutes ago, Fugu said:

Yes, exactly, that's how I want it be understood  :troll:

Just let me know once you refrain from childishness, should you wish to get back to a serious discussion on the topic.

Having dismissed my point out of hand I'm not sure what you expect.  There is obviously a combination of the rollers skill at bunching leaf as well as weight at work in the final cigar and resulting draw. But feel free to continue ignoring that fact, maybe psp cigars in future can only be psp once they have each been weighed.

Then again what is the 'perfect' draw, with people having different preferences then that perfect box of all 125g cigars is only perfect for some, the rest will never get the cigar they want.

Maybe the cigar weight should be included in the box code, then those who want their 124g or 126g cigars can be kept happy.

Posted
4 hours ago, Zigatoh said:

So given correct quantities of tobacco leaves anyone can roll a cigar with perfect draw? The only qc needed then surely is someone at the start of the rolling process with a set of scales. 

Technically, yes, any competent roller given the correct amounts of tobacco for the vitola being rolled should roll a cigar with a good draw. That's what they're trained to do. Proper amount of tobacco going in = proper weight of finished cigar. Weighing the tobacco beforehand would theoretically be effective, but since the roller trims and selects leaf, etc it becomes impractical. Properly utilizing the prescribed leaf recipe should always result in a standardized weight. These vitolas have been rolled for hundreds of years. I think they can identify a narrow range of weight for them.

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Posted
37 minutes ago, Zigatoh said:

Having dismissed my point out of hand I'm not sure what you expect.  There is obviously a combination of the rollers skill at bunching leaf as well as weight at work in the final cigar and resulting draw. But feel free to continue ignoring that fact, maybe psp cigars in future can only be psp once they have each been weighed.

Then again what is the 'perfect' draw, with people having different preferences then that perfect box of all 125g cigars is only perfect for some, the rest will never get the cigar they want.

Maybe the cigar weight should be included in the box code, then those who want their 124g or 126g cigars can be kept happy.

The draw point you're bringing up is a bit confusing to me. Poor draws are merely a symptom. Poor burning, hotness, tight draws, loose draws, poor smoke volume--all symptoms of poor construction. The direct cause of this poor construction can be underfilling and/or overfilling--both of which can be confirmed by the cigar's weight. Draws are only strongly correlated with weight, not always and every time caused by it. Poor draws can occur with proper weight as well. 

Weight variation isn't proper. They are not supposed to vary outside of natural, incidental variations. There is a standardized amount of tobacco prescribed, in grams, for each vitola. The fact that this is not being adhered to is a QC issue, period.

As for consistency in PSP, etc., yes, I want as much uniformity as possible in my cigars. Do you think it's more likely one would find as much variation in quality of construction between Cuba's 10 best rollers or between Cuba's worst 10 rolling the same vitola? I think that's an obvious answer. Even if the correct amount of tobacco is being used, the construction itself is going to vary much more among the less-skilled rollers. Meaning the ideal is consistently solid performance, and therefore consistent weights.

Posted

Zig, mate, do I really have to ruminate our posts from above? There was no dismissing, really not, I thought I did make clear my arguments, but perhaps I was implying too much.

I say, there is no particular "special" skill, no adjustment of the rolling technique, which you seem to be postulating. You say, your assumption would be that the skill of the roller allows him - within "certain limits" - to compensate technically for more or less fill. I say, the bunching technique will be all the same, whether the roller is using 11 g or 13 g of tobacco for a Robusto.

From a workflow perspective, what you think would be easier, always adopting a particular "rolling technique" in response to the amount of tobacco in a bunch, or properly adjusting the amount of tobacco in a bunch in the first place?

In the end, moist tobacco is an elastic, compressible material. It all boils down to the ratio between air channels and tobacco, i.e. cigar density. The pupa will be pressed two times in the wise into predetermined form. How at all could a roller, by using his "skills", influence the crossectional airway proportion for a given amount of tobacco? Make air channels wider or narrower or magically adjust their number in response to the amount of filler, when it finally becomes all compressed to fixed diameter in the mold? The nicest and most meticulous entubado-bunch will be squeezed to suffocation if it is too much tobacco used for the vitola. What's the special roller's compensation trick then, which you have in mind?

First and foremost, the amount of filler and vitola (ring gauge) will determine the final density and thus draw and in particular the burn of a cigar.

But perhaps there are people (Cubanos?) in the know on this board, who are in a position to enlighten us on the matter first hand.

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Posted

New box (well one I just opened the other day). Been in my possession for at least 15 years. Punch Churchills.

Almost like these came off of two roller's tables. One rolling around 200gr+- and one around 225gr+-. The real outlier here is the one heavy cigar. Gonna' grab one and smoke it now!

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Posted

Thanks Piggy, a 15 year old box. At least we can determine that vastly varying weight differences is not something that's recent. I may be wrong, but I suspect extreme weight differences in hand rolled cigars from Cuba is as old as when cigars were first ever rolled..

By the way I smoked a heavier than 'normal', and very firm, Partagas Lusi yesterday.

The draw was harder going than usual, (not plugged mind you), but overall very tasty and enjoyable just the same, and it was smoked to the nub.

I didn't feel like at least I got my money's worth in extra leaf, or neither I felt that because it was a tighter than normal draw that I was cheated by an poorly constructed cigar. I am not trying to 'rationalize crap' as you say. It wasn't the best experience, but it also wasn't the worst.

I don't view cigars as black and white ie, they should be perfect or if not, rejected out right. The gray area in between of what is a perfect cigar, and a bad cigar, is HUGE.. With many fantastic experiences in that gray area to be had, 

Weight is only one of many differentials a roller has to 'get right'.

I just look forward to the next Lusi I smoke which may be closer to nirvana than this one was.

When I hit that perfect cigar at least I have yesterday's experience to gauge it by.

That's all I meant by 'balancing my experience' .

Posted

These are far more consistent... These are Churchills by the way, verses the PCs previously pictured.

I don't have a lot of Churchills anymore. This is a box left over from my Churchill phase! The one that I smoked today was one of the best cigars I have had all year actually. When I was smoking Churchills, Punch was a perennial favorite of mine.

This cigar was actually worthy of a review. It all goes to prove (to me anyway) that I review with an open mind. This cigar opened rather average and just got better and better. When I sat down to smoke it, I more or less figured it would be only average due to my contemporary likes and dislikes. I just did not think that this cigar was going to be too robust... While it never really gave me the full flavor that I tend to prefer, the statesmanship of the cigar beat out its lack of constitution. I was very pleased!

-Piggy

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Posted
10 hours ago, Fugu said:

In the end, moist tobacco is an elastic, compressible material. It all boils down to the ratio between air channels and tobacco, i.e. cigar density. The pupa will be pressed two times in the wise into predetermined form. How at all could a roller, by using his "skills", influence the crossectional airway proportion for a given amount of tobacco? Make air channels wider or narrower or magically adjust their number in response to the amount of filler, when it finally becomes all compressed to fixed diameter in the mold? The nicest and most meticulous entubado-bunch will be squeezed to suffocation if it is too much tobacco used for the vitola. What's the special roller's compensation trick then, which you have in mind?

It's definitely possible you are completely right and I am completely wrong, would be nice as you say if someone in the know could comment, a roller would be perfect!

But thinking on the tricks that might be possible, rolling a cigar and it feels a bit light, is there no way I could put a small twist or crimp in the filler, near the base, to reduce airflow? This would coincidentally be around where people sometimes mention hard lumps in a cigar are most common, near or under the band.

Not sure so much about over filling except being extra careful to roll 'straight' perhaps to allow as many airways to remain open as possible.... obviously this has limits as I have always said after which whatever you do a tent peg is the end result.

197-237grams in piggies post about the punch churchills, a 20% increase from bottom to top, more consistent as he states but is this good enough?

Either way I'm thinking of doing some totally unscientific testing, recently got a box of RyJ Cazzies, wondering about weighing them, taking the top and bottom ones, clipping them and simply testing the cold draw initially, maybe the same for an NC box (got a couple somewhere!).

Though I don't have super accurate scales, just good old electronic small time drug dealer variety, but I can't see the accuracy needing to be that high when we're talking in grams here anyway (they go to hundredths I think).

Cheers

Martin

Posted

It would be interesting to see what the deviation is between cigars  in a box of typically well constructed NCs for comparison - Anniversary Padrons, Opus, Davidoff, etc.  I don't have an accurate scale or I would post.

Posted
6 hours ago, sfairchild said:

It would be interesting to see what the deviation is between cigars  in a box of typically well constructed NCs for comparison - Anniversary Padrons, Opus, Davidoff, etc.  I don't have an accurate scale or I would post.

I would stand to say very little deviation. I don't even see size differences within a box of Padron's or any other. When rollers in Nicaragua, Dominican, etc. are paid a very good living wage there is obviously more incentive to make a quality product. If you were paid 20 dollars a month and that was your salary forever, would you really care about an underfilled or overfilled cigar here and there?

Posted
8 hours ago, Zigatoh said:

It's definitely possible you are completely right and I am completely wrong, would be nice as you say if someone in the know could comment, a roller would be perfect!

But thinking on the tricks that might be possible, rolling a cigar and it feels a bit light, is there no way I could put a small twist or crimp in the filler, near the base, to reduce airflow? This would coincidentally be around where people sometimes mention hard lumps in a cigar are most common, near or under the band.

Not sure so much about over filling except being extra careful to roll 'straight' perhaps to allow as many airways to remain open as possible.... obviously this has limits as I have always said after which whatever you do a tent peg is the end result.

197-237grams in piggies post about the punch churchills, a 20% increase from bottom to top, more consistent as he states but is this good enough?

Either way I'm thinking of doing some totally unscientific testing, recently got a box of RyJ Cazzies, wondering about weighing them, taking the top and bottom ones, clipping them and simply testing the cold draw initially, maybe the same for an NC box (got a couple somewhere!).

Though I don't have super accurate scales, just good old electronic small time drug dealer variety, but I can't see the accuracy needing to be that high when we're talking in grams here anyway (they go to hundredths I think).

Cheers

Martin

For the record Ziggy I am using a grain scale, not a gram scale.

For comparison sake, 1 oz. = 28.3495 grams and 1 oz. = 437.5 grains. 1 gram is about 15.432 grains.

If we were talking 237 gram cigars, that is about a half-pound cigar! -LOL

There is alway going to be some deviation. And I am surprised that length as a factor has not yet come out of this conversation. Cigars do vary in length, so that would obviously affect the weight, and with larger ring, the difference cold be significant.

One thing to notice with the Churchills, is how many are nested so close to 200 grains. In this example you can see that it is possible to get cigars within a few grains, even 1/10s of a grain from each other. While I am surprised by the spread of weights in the PC, I am actually amazed by the consistency of weights in some of the Churchills. The Churchills have a very consistent feel as well.

What got me to weigh the PCs in the first place was the inconsistent 'feel' of the cigars. While it is true that I sometimes will simply put a box of cigars away without even opening them, I buy very few RyJ cigars and I wanted to see these. That got me to pushing on them and checking for firmness and pulling them out to examine them further. The weight therefore, is an affirmation of experience with cigar firmness that can be documented without "crush" testing the cigar! It can be demonstrated on a cigar board with pictures and with little bias.

My whole point in this, was a demonstration of inconsistent filling noticed first by feel, then verified by weight to show the board. I could squeeze two cigars between my fingers, perhaps crossed to show deflection in each cigar using the same force, but it is not to easy to document...

Cheers! -Piggy

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Posted

Oops on the grains to grams there Pigfish, not sure when I started that, and if a churchie weighs around 13-14 grams, that half pound cigar doesn't sound as good as I initially thought... 

Posted

Hey Ray...

Could you take all the cigars with the greatest deviation from the mean and cut them in half... then weigh each half :D I'll tell you my reasoning and experiences later.

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Posted
On 26/06/2016 at 5:16 PM, NYgarman said:

I would stand to say very little deviation. I don't even see size differences within a box of Padron's or any other. When rollers in Nicaragua, Dominican, etc. are paid a very good living wage there is obviously more incentive to make a quality product. If you were paid 20 dollars a month and that was your salary forever, would you really care about an underfilled or overfilled cigar here and there?

That's a matter of QC and does not lie within the personal "decision" of the single roller whether he perhaps should or shouldn't care about an under- or overfilled. It is all in the responsibility of the factory management, nothing and nobody else to blame for that, in particular not the rollers.

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Posted
On 26/06/2016 at 6:23 PM, PigFish said:

For the record Ziggy I am using a grain scale, not a gram scale.

Piggy, when will you come over to the mighty metrics side of things... :P

Posted
1 hour ago, Fugu said:

Piggy, when will you come over to the mighty metrics side of things... :P

I prefer the metric system, but alas I am stuck in a world where half my cars are metric and the other half SAE.

On the engineering drawing scale, I am pretty stuck with the inch and decimal fractions thereof. I can visualize this and it is easier to work with for me. And then again there is construction side, where I would be blindsided by a change. Again, I can visualize many measurements and the change would be like me thinking in one language and translating it to another. I think the metric system is a better system but I have no real desire to undo a lifelong feel for the standard system that I am accustomed to.

The grain is an archaic form of measurement. However the same excuses apply. I am used to it. I have reloading small arms ammunition since I was 14. I can visualize the bullet weights and the fill in a metallic cartridge when I use a progressive reloader. Starting all over with 100ths or 1000ths of a gram, would set me back... The days of Mettler balance and the college chem. lab are only distant memories!!!! With the exception of filling the dents in the stools with an invisible pool of deionized water for another student to sit in, I prefer to keep it that way....! -LOL

Cheers! -P 

Posted
On June 26, 2016 at 2:27 PM, Brandon said:

Hey Ray...

Could you take all the cigars with the greatest deviation from the mean and cut them in half... then weigh each half :D I'll tell you my reasoning and experiences later.

 

2 hours ago, Fugu said:

Good idea - I'll support this.. :D

May I say that you take your suggestion and apply it to each others appendices and/or orifices... I will explain my reasons in more detail later. -LOL (read with levity) -Piggy

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Posted
17 hours ago, PigFish said:

I prefer the metric system, but alas I am stuck in a world where half my cars are metric and the other half SAE.

On the engineering drawing scale, I am pretty stuck with the inch and decimal fractions thereof. I can visualize this and it is easier to work with for me. And then again there is construction side, where I would be blindsided by a change. Again, I can visualize many measurements and the change would be like me thinking in one language and translating it to another. I think the metric system is a better system but I have no real desire to undo a lifelong feel for the standard system that I am accustomed to.

The grain is an archaic form of measurement. However the same excuses apply. I am used to it. I have reloading small arms ammunition since I was 14. I can visualize the bullet weights and the fill in a metallic cartridge when I use a progressive reloader. Starting all over with 100ths or 1000ths of a gram, would set me back... The days of Mettler balance and the college chem. lab are only distant memories!!!! With the exception of filling the dents in the stools with an invisible pool of deionized water for another student to sit in, I prefer to keep it that way....! -LOL

Cheers! -P 

Same with me. In mechanical engineering, I think and "feel" in mm, and it is demanding very hard mental work to 'interprete' other language there.

On the other hand, there are products here, which are still being classified in some of the old, historic scales. Cloth running length, e.g. given in 'cubit'. Carpentry often still working on an inch-basis (constr. wood dimensioning etc.), nails are still given in inch. So, no problem with that. Problems starting with PSI and stuff like your grain....;)

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