Cuban Cigar Quality Control

[foursite12]

From the topic title, I assumed this exercise would at some point compare the deviations seen in Cuban cigars versus the deviations seen in Non-Cuban cigars.  Hell, maybe this is world class consistency!

[Colt45]

22 hours ago, PigFish said:

Why I typed ounce, is beyond me!

Were you weighing something medicinal at the time? 

 

Funny you mentioned shoes a bit later - first thing I thought of when reading some of the handmade responses. A pair of handmade shoes, lasted to one's feet with sewn on replaceable soles are a luxury item, and my expectations would be quite high.

 

[Tman]

Wow. Weight variations are the last thing I would worry about. The look, taste, and appearance tops my smoking experience. To each their own...

[PigFish]

The point is weight is linked to construction. Construction is linked to taste.

Some people rely on 'looks.' Not me! Oils on the wrapper etc. I have smoked some phenomenal "dull" looking cigars. But what has demonstrated to be crap, time and time again is a soft, under-filled cigar. I am not squabbling over the weight per say. I am picking apart the inconsistency and range.

Now the underweight cigars may smoke and taste very well. I will admit that. Every unsmoked cigar is an unknown. Yet we all have our clues due to our experience. Mine is a firm, well packed and weighty cigar! Hell, the wrapper could look like crap as far as I am concerned, as long as the cigar tastes good. The weight could be different, again, as long as it tastes good.

My experience tells me light cigars taste bad, and that is the issue with the huge variance and the light cigars.

-Piggy

[RijkdeGooier]

Ray's experiment has brought to light more than just the weight variances it seems. 

 

Each can have their own opinion but I do value weight as a measure of QC. It shows adherence or lack thereof to the posted recipe for the vitola being rolled. 

While some variance is tolereable too much of it does affect the smoking experience. 

[TexS]

As some have already stated, this experiment akins to my ammunition reloading experiences.

Thank goodness machine made bullets in the 100-300gr range rarely differ by more than .1gr....

My "handmade" cast lead bullets are the same. They go into a mold, much like cigars.

Interesting indeed.

[Fuzz]

14 hours ago, PigFish said:

By the way, I also take note to move away and not breathe on the scale... that too will change the readings!

You don't have one of the glass/perspex boxes that sit over the scale to reduce air movement?

[Fugu]

10 hours ago, PigFish said:

The point is weight is linked to construction. Construction is linked to taste.

Some people rely on 'looks.' Not me! Oils on the wrapper etc. I have smoked some phenomenal "dull" looking cigars. But what has demonstrated to be crap, time and time again is a soft, under-filled cigar. I am not squabbling over the weight per say. I am picking apart the inconsistency and range.

Now the underweight cigars may smoke and taste very well. I will admit that. Every unsmoked cigar is an unknown. Yet we all have our clues due to our experience. Mine is a firm, well packed and weighty cigar! Hell, the wrapper could look like crap as far as I am concerned, as long as the cigar tastes good. The weight could be different, again, as long as it tastes good.

My experience tells me light cigars taste bad, and that is the issue with the huge variance and the light cigars.

-Piggy

 

A bit late to the party, but just weighing in.

"The point is weight is linked to construction. Construction is linked to taste. "

Spot on (as usual). Weight is crucial.

I am a bit surprised to learn that the weight variances are to so much surprise here. I am regularly tossing sticks of questionable construction on the balance (no worries - high-qual German precision lab balance..., the calib. debate was fun to read ). I even had SWs ranging from under 13 g to a bit over 20 g. I.e. ranging from 'underfilled' to 'plugged' and unsmokeable. In such a high-priced product I do - and I think I can - expect different.

It is a hand-made product, and handling tobacco leaf, due to its variable form and structure, is susceptible to a higher degree of variability as e.g. compared to making shoes or casting lead bullets. So we surely have to accept a certain variation. But this has to be kept within set margins. Usually, I rather prefer a tighter packed over a wind tunnel draw.

A note on draw-testing machines - their utilization appears to be highly overrated. The result seems to be much dependent on their proper use, and whether you observe or ignore the results. Drawing a bit of secondary air across the suction flange easily get's you a "perfectly" drawing pupa. The tighter the roll, the higher the chances of drawing bleed air. And from my experience, there seems to be also no rejection for too low a draw resistance.

Would draw-testing machines be applied correctly we wouldn't have to discuss cigar weights.

 

[PigFish]

1 hour ago, Fugu said:

 

A bit late to the party, but just weighing in.

"The point is weight is linked to construction. Construction is linked to taste. "

Spot on (as usual). Weight is crucial.

I am a bit surprised to learn that the weight variances are to so much surprise here. I am regularly tossing sticks of questionable construction on the balance (no worries - high-qual German precision lab balance..., the calib. debate was fun to read ). I even had SWs ranging from under 13 g to a bit over 20 g. I.e. ranging from 'underfilled' to 'plugged' and unsmokeable. In such a high-priced product I do - and I think I can - expect different.

It is a hand-made product, and handling tobacco leaf, due to its variable form and structure, is susceptible to a higher degree of variability as e.g. compared to making shoes or casting lead bullets. So we surely have to accept a certain variation. But this has to be kept within set margins. Usually, I rather prefer a tighter packed over a wind tunnel draw.

A note on draw-testing machines - their utilization appears to be highly overrated. The result seems to be much dependent on their proper use, and whether you observe or ignore the results. Drawing a bit of secondary air across the suction flange easily get's you a "perfectly" drawing pupa. The tighter the roll, the higher the chances of drawing bleed air. And from my experience, there seems to be also no rejection for too low a draw resistance.

Would draw-testing machines be applied correctly we wouldn't have to discuss cigar weights.

 

I was hoping you would 'weigh in' Gooey.... 

As usual, I cannot help but argue. Not with you Goo, but in general in the thread. Frankly I wanted to hear the opinions of others. As usual, I spend more time spouting off myself.

What really surprises me here, is the tolerance for error, not as much from Cuba, I have weighed their cigars hundreds of times, but from smokers and I would say connoisseurs.

My weighing of cigars is not an expectance of perfection. It is not about a measurement of me! It is a measurement of what I spend my hard-earned money on. Personally I think that Tabacuba puts out a lot of crap... Their customers pay for it. They make up excuses for it and accept it.

As most of you know I don't smoke NC cigars. Yet the pressure that they put on Tabacuba, not the stupid challenges of rolling the fattest cigar, but to roll a better cigar is a good thing.

Poor quality ultimately is in the business model at Tabacuba and in Cuba... there can be no other explanation. If rollers were organized in teams, payed more, tracked a little better and competed against each other for bonuses for quality, not punishment for failure, but awarded money, spiffs and stature, this would improve. Of course we are talking not really just of cigar making, but the changing of an entire society.

When I buy a box of cigars, the company's assumption that I accept a 20% failure rate is outrageous. They get paid of course, so they don't really care. Yet, it is wasteful. It is wasteful of my time and my capital, it is wasteful of Cuban human capital and wonderful tobacco.

My weight reflects that I don't leave much on my plate. I was taught not to waste. I eat left-overs all the time. The produce and the food waste of my society is quite shameful. I feel the same about tobacco, believe it or not. I smoke shorter cigars to suit my taste but also as a measure of economy of the commodity. Giving a cigar to a new smoker to watch him waste it really bugs me....! In the same light, making poor quality cigars, creating garbage from a good commodity is also a wasteful process.

Picking green fruit so that it looks good in the store, but tastes poorly is a wasteful process as well. When it comes to waste, well, my society is no better, probably far worse. That annoys me too, but of course it is not the topic.

Whether it is crappy tasting fruit that looks good, or crappy tasting cigars that look good I suppose I am in the same boat. I dislike wasting my money and I dislike wasting the commodity...!

-the Pig

[Zigatoh]

I would definitely say the range found is excessive,  but would disagree that weight directly correlates with construction and draw. My assumption would be that within certain weight limits the skill of the roller and how they bunch the leaves would be the defining factor. 

How large these limits could be before the rollers skill is overcome is an interesting one.

[NSXCIGAR]

1 hour ago, Zigatoh said:

I would definitely say the range found is excessive,  but would disagree that weight directly correlates with construction and draw. My assumption would be that within certain weight limits the skill of the roller and how they bunch the leaves would be the defining factor. 

How large these limits could be before the rollers skill is overcome is an interesting one.

Respectfully, I have to disagree strongly here. Over 20+ years and thousands of cigars, my experience is that underweight cigars are strongly correlated to construction and performance issues. Vitolas have uniform dimensions, and each recipe is designed to produce optimum construction and performance, or taste, for those given dimensions. If a cigar is lighter than it should be, there is necessarily tobacco missing that should be present. This missing tobacco should certainly impact performance in some fashion. I've experienced loose draws, poor burning, tunneling, too rapid burning, smoke volume issues, flavor issues. Any combination of these.

How the roller rolls or bunches should have zero impact on weight. All the tobacco prior to rolling should weigh the same as the finished product (assuming trimmings are removed.) Or, a dissected cigar would weigh differently than the whole cigar, which we know isn't possible. The skill of the roller is exactly what's in question here, unless of course they're being instructed to utilize less tobacco than should be used for other reasons by the managers. I think it's more likely that the rollers are simply screwing up and management either isn't aware or doesn't care. Ultimately, it is a management issue.

[NSXCIGAR]

4 hours ago, Fugu said:

...A note on draw-testing machines - their utilization appears to be highly overrated. The result seems to be much dependent on their proper use, and whether you observe or ignore the results. Drawing a bit of secondary air across the suction flange easily get's you a "perfectly" drawing pupa. The tighter the roll, the higher the chances of drawing bleed air. And from my experience, there seems to be also no rejection for too low a draw resistance.

Would draw-testing machines be applied correctly we wouldn't have to discuss cigar weights.

 

There is an acceptable range for the draw that should be recognized on the gauge, but I'm sure the checkers likely err on the side of too loose. Tat being said, loose draws are only one symptom of an underweight cigar. I've encountered underweight cigars with perfect draws, and also tight draws. But I'd say that an underweight cigar is certainly far more likely to have a loose draw. So the draw checker alone is not enough to identify the problem. The draw may test fine, and the other spate of issues correlated to underweight cigars may still manifest.

So, in conclusion, I have no issue with checking the draws, but the fact that a draw is in the acceptable range isn't the only test of construction. Checking weights would be another useful tool in conjunction with checking draws.

[Smallclub]

19 hours ago, Tman said:

Wow. Weight variations are the last thing I would worry about. The look, taste, and appearance tops my smoking experience. To each their own...

When two cigars in the same box offer 2 totally different smoking experience (one being a harsh, hot, fast burning disaster OR an exhausting tight draw producing too little smoke), because they contain a different quantity of leaves, it's a major QC issue and not a "to each their own" preference.

[PigFish]

Cigars are blended, yes? Is if fair to assume the this means there is a recipe? The recipe, at least to my knowledge is represented in several parts. One part is mass (the weight of different tobaccos used) and volume, the mould, the vitola. The combination of the recipe will give you an acceptable density, or weight per cigar vitola.

The weight therefore is a part of the recipe and variance from it, turns the cigar into  a cigar that it is not branded to be, or designated to be as defined by the vitola. For those of you who believe in brand profiles, is it not safe to assume that it cannot exist if a recipe for the said cigar is not adhered too?

Again, I ask. For those of you who smoke robustos, would it be acceptable if they came rolling about in the box at 40 instead of 50 rg? My guess is that the answer is no. While the cigar might be good or not good, the fact that there is no adherence to the 'recipe' means that you are not getting what you were sold. So if you would bitch if your 50 rg cigars came to you as 40 rg, why would it be acceptable if they remained 50 rg, but only had the tobacco content of that of a 40 rg....? Just food for thought!

-Piggy

[Fugu]

4 hours ago, Zigatoh said:

...,  but would disagree that weight directly correlates with construction and draw. My assumption would be that within certain weight limits the skill of the roller and how they bunch the leaves would be the defining factor. 

 

Be assured, there is a very tight correlation between cigar weight (= tobacco mass) and draw resistance. There really is no serious debating on that. I cannot present you a graph (because how could I quantify my draw-perception) but that experience derives from years of smoking cigars and even the occasional weighing. In most cases, an experienced smoker can weigh a cigar just in his hands and foresee the draw.

 

It is no rocket science: More tobacco pressed into the same form factor (i.e. same crossectional area) will inevitably lead to less space for air channels and thus a tighter draw, and vice versa. No roller's skill in the world can compensate for chosing an inadequate amount of tobacco in the first place. It is just not possible to remedy an overfill or an underfill by some kind of miraculous 'construction' trick. Constructionwise, the roller is responsible for an even bunching across (e.g. no booking) as well as along the cigar, without producing any soft spots nor tight knots, nor twisting, but - first of all - for choosing the correct amount of tobacco for the vitola to be made.

[Fugu]

2 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

There is an acceptable range for the draw that should be recognized on the gauge, but I'm sure the checkers likely err on the side of too loose. Tat being said, loose draws are only one symptom of an underweight cigar. I've encountered underweight cigars with perfect draws, and also tight draws. But I'd say that an underweight cigar is certainly far more likely to have a loose draw. So the draw checker alone is not enough to identify the problem. The draw may test fine, and the other spate of issues correlated to underweight cigars may still manifest.

So, in conclusion, I have no issue with checking the draws, but the fact that a draw is in the acceptable range isn't the only test of construction. Checking weights would be another useful tool in conjunction with checking draws.

You are right of course, the draw testing doesn't tell it all. That holding in particular when there are inhomogeneities along the cigar, that's true (side note: for the exact same reason I have never been an advocate of adjusting draw by way of cutting... bunching and rolling determine draw and burn, not a sham flow restriction at the mouth piece).

But in most cases draw testing is helpful - or let's better say - could be a very good measure, if properly applied. From my experience, the majority of cigars with draw issues have a problem of general over- or underfilling. I had cigars from actual production that would never have passed any draw testing (and no weight testing either...). Don't know what they did, either they didn't test at all, didn't test correctly or simply ignored the reading from the gauge. Perhaps it would indeed be easier and even more decisive to check weight (less prone to application errors) in place of draw.

[NSXCIGAR]

52 minutes ago, Fugu said:

Perhaps it would indeed be easier and even more decisive to check weight (less prone to application errors) in place of draw.

It may indeed. I also agree in my experience tight draws are strongly correlated to overfilling, especially in the last 15 years. It would be interesting to see a study comparing draw to cigar weight. Could insuring a proper weight range be substituted for draw checking entirely? Perhaps it is a superior test. It would not be hard to do. Weighing a mold takes far less time than checking the draws of the 10 cigars in the mold. However, I'd probably stick with the draw checker as well. A roller can still roll a cigar improperly with the correct weight.

Just stick a scale next to the draw-checking machine. The worker can do both. Checking the draws on the 10 cigars in the mold takes 20-30 seconds. Weighing the mold takes 3 seconds.

[danny]

1 hour ago, PigFish said:

So if you would bitch if your 50 rg cigars came to you as 40 rg, why would it be acceptable if they remained 50 rg, but only had the tobacco content of that of a 40 rg....? Just food for thought!

-Piggy

This.

[ElPuro]

I'd like to see a comparison against a box of mid level nc.

[Fugu]

13 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

It may indeed. I also agree in my experience tight draws are strongly correlated to overfilling, especially in the last 15 years. It would be interesting to see a study comparing draw to cigar weight. Could insuring a proper weight range be substituted for draw checking entirely? Perhaps it is a superior test. It would not be hard to do. Weighing a mold takes far less time than checking the draws of the 10 cigars in the mold. However, I'd probably stick with the draw checker as well. A roller can still roll a cigar improperly with the correct weight.

Just stick a scale next to the draw-checking machine. The worker can do both. Checking the draws on the 10 cigars in the mold takes 20-30 seconds. Weighing the mold takes 3 seconds.

You'd have to weigh them separately I fear. Weighing the mold would only give you the average weight. I've seen vids where the weight of half weels or quarter weels was being taken at QC. It's the same - you get a general figure of the correct amount of tobacco that's leaving the factory (to not waste anything, I suspect), but not the weight for the individual cigar. Windtunnel and tent-peg will average each other out..

[NSXCIGAR]

14 minutes ago, Fugu said:

You'd have to weigh them separately I fear. Weighing the mold would only give you the average weight. I've seen vids where the weight of half weels or quarter weels was being taken at QC. It's the same - you get a general figure of the correct amount of tobacco that's leaving the factory (to not waste anything, I suspect), but not the weight for the individual cigar. Windtunnel and tent-peg will average each other out..

I thought this at first as well, but my theory is that the molds contain only cigars from one roller, and it's likely that the roller in question is probably either too tight or too loose. I would guess it's unlikely the roller is all over the map. So I recognize that if 5 are 8g and 5 are 6g, the mold may weigh out at 7g average, but I think the more likely situation is that the roller is consistently above or below. Once the cigars are bundled, the roller is anonymous. You've got to get at them when you can still trace it back--basically the point at which they're draw-checked.

[Fugu]

You are right. What you (as a producer) control depends on what you want to know: Weighing a half wheel or even individual sticks from a half wheel will tell you whether there are flaws in production, but won't pinpoint their cause. So, I agree, if you want to remedy rolling issues, you have to do it on the single roller's basis. But that's already been done, as far as I am aware, at random sample at least. And also the draw-testing can be traced back to the individual roller.

That brings us back to Piggy's proposal:

16 hours ago, PigFish said:

Poor quality ultimately is in the business model at Tabacuba and in Cuba... there can be no other explanation. If rollers were organized in teams, payed more, tracked a little better and competed against each other for bonuses for quality, not punishment for failure, but awarded money, spiffs and stature, this would improve. Of course we are talking not really just of cigar making, but the changing of an entire society.

 

Rollers are being paid for output (and level of difficulty of the format). Of course, it must promote quality issues when your are being paid on a quantity basis only. As long as such a system is in place we are not going to see much changes. Eventually, you have to do both - control and gratificate the rollers (in order to reduce failure rate at the source) and control the final product leaving the line (in order to protect your customers from duds). That's basic QC-101, but obviously difficult to implement...

 

[Zigatoh]

13 hours ago, Fugu said:

 

Be assured, there is a very tight correlation between cigar weight (= tobacco mass) and draw resistance. There really is no serious debating on that. I cannot present you a graph (because how could I quantify my draw-perception) but that experience derives from years of smoking cigars and even the occasional weighing. In most cases, an experienced smoker can weigh a cigar just in his hands and foresee the draw.

 

It is no rocket science: More tobacco pressed into the same form factor (i.e. same crossectional area) will inevitably lead to less space for air channels and thus a tighter draw, and vice versa. No roller's skill in the world can compensate for chosing an inadequate amount of tobacco in the first place. It is just not possible to remedy an overfill or an underfill by some kind of miraculous 'construction' trick. Constructionwise, the roller is responsible for an even bunching across (e.g. no booking) as well as along the cigar, without producing any soft spots nor tight knots, nor twisting, but - first of all - for choosing the correct amount of tobacco for the vitola to be made.

"My assumption would be that within certain weight limits the skill of the roller and how they bunch the leaves would be the defining factor."

 

My point was more that within a certain range there is no correlation, which everyone seems to have ignored. 107-147g is a lot as I also mentioned but surely if that had been 120-130 (if 125 was the target for example) then a good roller could create a well drawing cigar? Or would it have to be 123-127? or would 115-135 b3 ok?

I'm certain as well that a bad roller, or someone rolling badly at the time, could take the specified 125 grams of tobacco leaf and create either a tent peg or a wind tunnel by bunching the leaves badly.

 

 

[RijkdeGooier]

14 hours ago, Fugu said:

 

Be assured, there is a very tight correlation between cigar weight (= tobacco mass) and draw resistance. There really is no serious debating on that. I cannot present you a graph (because how could I quantify my draw-perception) but that experience derives from years of smoking cigars and even the occasional weighing. In most cases, an experienced smoker can weigh a cigar just in his hands and foresee the draw.

 

It is no rocket science: More tobacco pressed into the same form factor (i.e. same crossectional area) will inevitably lead to less space for air channels and thus a tighter draw, and vice versa. No roller's skill in the world can compensate for chosing an inadequate amount of tobacco in the first place. It is just not possible to remedy an overfill or an underfill by some kind of miraculous 'construction' trick. Constructionwise, the roller is responsible for an even bunching across (e.g. no booking) as well as along the cigar, without producing any soft spots nor tight knots, nor twisting, but - first of all - for choosing the correct amount of tobacco for the vitola to be made.

Only exception being tightening the RG (as indirectly indicated bij Ray)

[Fugu]

Well, Zig, within certain weight limits it needs no special roller's skill. That's exactly what we postulate: Keep the limits narrow!

2 hours ago, Zigatoh said:

My point was more that within a certain range there is no correlation, which everyone seems to have ignored.

No, not ignored, well understood - and objected. The correlation is not discontinuous.