Help - y'alls thoughts

[PapaDisco]

1 hour ago, Geaux said:

Wow... glad I could be the impetus for such crazy speculations.

Ray, I think you may be on to something here. The cigars feel tighter and squishy compared to their normal state I like them in. Though in Phoenix, there was no observable condensation as they cooled.   I must add a disclaimer that I do not have the time to study this minute by minute....

 

I am have an absolute nightmare trying to keep the stogies in a stable state. As we travel they get up to 80-100°. Then we get the air going and they go back to 70°. At night (now in the high desert) it can get to 50°!!   Temp swings all over the board.

Phoenix has a rh of around 12% right now, so not too much like Saigon. Soon we will be in the deep south, and humidity will be abundantly available. 

Blah. I am thinking about sending the stash back to live in my real humidor back home... which I might add is not my favorite option. Traveling without a cigar stash makes Jack a dull boy.

Don't listen to Bacon Boy!  He lives on an island!

Hey a simple cooler would keep your temperature swings down for the rest of the trip.  If you park the Winnebago for a couple hours in the sun, it might be 100F in the cabin, but it won't budge much inside of the cooler.  Like Ray sez, a TE Cooler would be aces, but even a basic cooler with a single blue ice pack in it once a day would work wonders.

[Fugu]

Crazy speculations??!! 


Geaux, in all seriousness: How large is the stash you are taking with you?
There is a really simple solution to your problem, that doesn't need much more than a bit of additional space. Not sure, whether space could pose a problem in your RV, but perhaps worthwhile avoiding repeatedly cooked sticks: The solution is putting all your stash in a simple cooling box without cooling (as mentioned above). Even better perhaps using a cheap styrofoam box (of the type used for shipping of frozen goods) as they may come with an even better insulation (you may add insulation panels as you need).

Now, since this alone will not be sufficient for keeping temp. in the longer term, in order to avoid the diurnal temperature swings in your stash, you need mass! Mass, meaning a certain amount of material with a high heat capacity (i.e. absorbing a high amount of thermal energy while effecting relatively little temperature change). Mass produces inertia!

One way to achieve this would be having said box very well filled with cigars. However, you might wish to be independent of the amount kept in storage, as towards the end of your round-the-world trip you will be left with relatively little. So, you may add something else to the box in adition to your stash. A material with a high specific heat capacity, and the perfect material comes at no cost: Water (oh, don't let me get started on water...). Therefore, easiest solution would be simply plastering the bottom (or the sides or however it fits) of said box with a layer of filled water bottles (@ the desired 65°-70° K, not much cooler). Water has a comparatively high specific heat, so that a few liters in said well-insulated box will easily keep your stash on constant temp during the day or even a couple of days (dep. on ext. cond.). Toss in a thermo-hygro and you can check and adjust as needed. When you are back on AC you can replace the whole set or just a few of the bottles, just as necessary. (keep two alternating sets, one of which you cool down during periods when you are on AC, or quicker in the fridge, but don't overdo the cooling then!)

Good luck and happy traveling!

[Fugu]

25 minutes ago, PapaDisco said:

Hey a simple cooler would keep your temperature swings down for the rest of the trip.  If you park the Winnebago for a couple hours in the sun, it might be 100F in the cabin, but it won't budge much inside of the cooler.  Like Ray sez, a TE Cooler would be aces, but even a basic cooler with a single blue ice pack in it once a day would work wonders.

What he sais. Poppy posted, while I was still writing. Instead of an ice pack, which could produce local cooling, go for the "inertia-of-mass"-solution. Piggy is comin' from the technical/controlling side, but I guess this simpler approach might be more practical in your current situation (and TE would be scrap anyway, Piggy, no? - that we hear you propose TE!...tzetzetze...), and will already be a huge improvement over what you got now. Perhaps it's yet even the perfect solution to your problem.

[PigFish]

1 hour ago, Fugu said:

What he sais. Poppy posted, while I was still writing. Instead of an ice pack, which could produce local cooling, go for the "inertia-of-mass"-solution. Piggy is comin' from the technical/controlling side, but I guess this simpler approach might be more practical in your current situation (and TE would be scrap anyway, Piggy, no? - that we hear you propose TE!...tzetzetze...), and will already be a huge improvement over what you got now. Perhaps it's yet even the perfect solution to your problem.

... won't all this water saturate his cigars!!!??? -LOL

Joking aside, the thermal mass solution is really simple and the obvious solution. Hats off to Gooey! That is the way I would take it. Add this to Poopy's idea and you have got a winner! Get yourself a rotating stash of bottled water that you can freeze. Why freeze? Because the frozen water represents a battery of sorts for absorbing the heat. Trying to keep water at a set temp., while it is a great idea in and of itself, will be a chore just as storing your cigars at 70F will be chore. Freezing the bottles, then wrapping them in a towel, a form of insulation will allow the controlled distribution of 'cold' or heat absorption.

The thermal mass approach is really nothing short of simple and creative. Brilliant Gooey! I like it. Poopy too, bravo! A couple/4, one liter bottle that you can freeze overnight and wrap in towels during the day at the bottom of a simple ice chest is the blue ribbon idea. That is what I would do!

Good work consultants. OP, billing address please!!!

-PorkChop!

[Orion21]

I just discovered I left my Herfador in my SUV in 90 degree heat for 5 days.  The lows during the evening were in the mid 60's, but I would imagine my 10 cigars where sitting at about 90F for 5-7 hours during those days.  What I can report is this: 

The sun came up today.

 

I checked the status of said cigars when I brought them into my office this morning.  I can tell you that when I opened the Herfador the smell was wonderful.  All of the cigars felt completely normal and I look forward to burning a few this weekend.  As to the space time continuum calculation related to their current water content I worked through the day to determine that . . . it seems just fine  

[PigFish]

1 hour ago, Orion21 said:

I just discovered I left my Herfador in my SUV in 90 degree heat for 5 days.  The lows during the evening were in the mid 60's, but I would imagine my 10 cigars where sitting at about 90F for 5-7 hours during those days.  What I can report is this: 

The sun came up today.

 

I checked the status of said cigars when I brought them into my office this morning.  I can tell you that when I opened the Herfador the smell was wonderful.  All of the cigars felt completely normal and I look forward to burning a few this weekend.  As to the space time continuum calculation related to their current water content I worked through the day to determine that . . . it seems just fine  

... @ 92.8˚F, it would'a been a whole different ballgame! You're a damn lucky guy! -Piggy

[Fugu]

12 hours ago, PigFish said:

... @ 92.8˚F, it would'a been a whole different ballgame! You're a damn lucky guy! -Piggy

What Piggy said, 90 °F is a hell lot different to the PO's reported 120 °F (with 92.8° being the critical turning point of course...). Perhaps not so much in terms of aqueous matter redistribution but most certainly in terms of volatile resin comp and oils disintegration....
 

[Fugu]

You know, I only very reluctantly object, (and thanks for the kind words of support, Piggy ...), but I would refrain from freezing the bottles. This for two reasons (you guess which):

1. Temperature: Frozen water is very good at holding temperature constant at freezing point for as long as the melting process lasts (triple point of water!). However, here in this case, we are facing the risk of too much cooling, at least locally, with the related problems again. You'd wonder how good a properly insulated box will hold the temperature, even at 120° outside, just with a certain water mass of some 70°F (doesn't really matter if it's 65 or 75). That's the very charm of the idea of mass-inertia! Since there is almost no loss to the outside (more precisely - no thermal energy influx to the inside), there is no need to boost that with a kind of cooling battery. Such would be the standard solution for keeping your Coke or your bbq-meat cool, where it really doesn't matter, but not for cigars. I'd be careful with that.

2. Condensation & humidity: Even if only a single small bottle of frozen water (and even if the combined temp of frozen and unfrozen volumes would result in an average mixed temp well above some 60°), and even if wrapped in a towel: You'll inevitably get a local spot for condensation within the container - that's at your cool-bottle's surface. That will then act in drying out the atmosphere, and his esteemed bovedas will have a hard time keeping up with that. Keep in mind, other than in your - compressor cooled - home humidor cabinet, you don't have any air circulation here!

So, better avoid that. Creating huge temperature gradients within his makeshift storage is no good, will only lead to complicate conditions and thus likely create additional problems.

Yours respectfully, Goo

[PigFish]

3 hours ago, Fugu said:

You know, I only very reluctantly object, (and thanks for the kind words of support, Piggy ...), but I would refrain from freezing the bottles. This for two reasons (you guess which):

1. Temperature: Frozen water is very good at holding temperature constant at freezing point for as long as the melting process lasts (triple point of water!). However, here in this case, we are facing the risk of too much cooling, at least locally, with the related problems again. You'd wonder how good a properly insulated box will hold the temperature, even at 120° outside, just with a certain water mass of some 70°F (doesn't really matter if it's 65 or 75). That's the very charm of the idea of mass-inertia! Since there is almost no loss to the outside (more precisely - no thermal energy influx to the inside), there is no need to boost that with a kind of cooling battery. Such would be the standard solution for keeping your Coke or your bbq-meat cool, where it really doesn't matter, but not for cigars. I'd be careful with that.

2. Condensation & humidity: Even if only a single small bottle of frozen water (and even if the combined temp of frozen and unfrozen volumes would result in an average mixed temp well above some 60°), and even if wrapped in a towel: You'll inevitably get a local spot for condensation within the container - that's at your cool-bottle's surface. That will then act in drying out the atmosphere, and his esteemed bovedas will have a hard time keeping up with that. Keep in mind, other than in your - compressor cooled - home humidor cabinet, you don't have any air circulation here!

So, better avoid that. Creating huge temperature gradients within his makeshift storage is no good, will only lead to complicate conditions and thus likely create additional problems.

Yours respectfully, Goo

 

... there goes the consulting fee, right into the hot air! Thanks Goo! -LOL

-the Pig

PS: Of course Gooey you make a point for 'controlled' automation! That is why my little humidor company works. Just sayin'!

I have battled the notion ambient reliant humidors for years, in favor of controlled solutions. While making that battle I have learned a lot about the smoking experience and smokers in general. Ultimately the lessons I have learned are egocentric. Not just in my case, but in all cases. There really is no universal 'right' way to store cigars. Albeit there are plenty of wrong ways!!!

This then is just another classic case of man and his cigars verses the environment. I will hold fast on my previous finding adding that there is no replacement for the thermostat!!! In my mind there is only one real solution to a variable environment. That is automation controls, engineering, and an empirical approach to proving it works! I don't care whether the automaton is in controlling the ambient, or the humidor, if you want a stable environment, you need to control it.

Yet theory only goes so far. I have probably built 100 iterations of the wine cooler humidor. Some I thought were absolutely brilliant... and they did not work for ****! It is not that the theory was not sound in one specific way or another, just that the real world taught me how quickly that 'way' was outside of the realm of the "real" world.

After all the fun and laughs, does the OP send his cigar home or try one of the approaches above. If it were me, I would be freezing and insulating bottles. I would cut a handful of sticks and leave them out in the dry heat in the RV to smoke within the next few days. I would tinker with the remaining stock. There is alway a chance at a good smoking experience from a nice dry cigar. It is the ones that have too much water in them, or the ones that are not uniform that present the worst behavior of any cigar. My 2cts.

 

[Fugu]

2 hours ago, PigFish said:

PS: Of course Gooey you make a point for 'controlled' automation!

 

Absolutely - I know I do and agree, as you'll know. That'd be the perfect way! But that's not what is helping him atm, very unfortunately.

 

2 hours ago, PigFish said:

This then is just another classic case of man and his cigars verses the environment. I will hold fast on my previous finding adding that there is no replacement for the thermostat!!! In my mind there is only one real solution to a variable environment. That is automation controls, engineering, and an empirical approach to proving it works! I don't care whether the automaton is in controlling the ambient, or the humidor, if you want a stable environment, you need to control it.

 

Yes, again agreed. But you aren't coming closer to that with frozen water. You are making it worse. Keep in mind - we don't have air circulation in this case, this is the critical point! Cooling without circulation is a no-go (who wouldn't know better than Monsieur Côtelette). We are going to inevitably create cold sinks and condensation. Instead, we need to keep it stable by producing as little internal gradients as possible from the get go.

 

Seems we have to go and extend our demand for the proper study design and subsequent reporting, and will need to ask our friend to setup two systems: The Piggy-makeshift-RV-humidor glacé and the Gooey-makeshift-RV-humidor non-glacée...

 

Yours, Goo

[PapaDisco]

You guys are nuts.  92.8F is only relevant in the southern hemisphere, you have to use 92.7F in the northern hemisphere owing to the coriolis effect.  You know, water going down the drain the other way and all that?  Sheesh!  What do you think relative humidity has been referring to all these years??

Geaux's cigars must be toast by now.  Best to just feed them, and the cooler, and the Winnebago to the goats . . . unless of course it's still possible to balance an egg on end in the Winnebago's kitchen . . . then there might still be hope . . .

[Fugu]

4 minutes ago, PapaDisco said:

You guys are nuts.  92.8F is only relevant in the southern hemisphere, you have to use 92.7F in the northern hemisphere owing to the coriolis effect.  You know, water going down the drain the other way and all that?  Sheesh!  What do you think relative humidity has been referring to all these years??

Geaux's cigars must be toast by now.  Best to just feed them, and the cooler, and the Winnebago to the goats . . . unless of course it's still possible to balance an egg on end in the Winnebago's kitchen . . . then there might still be hope . . .

 

Coriolis - of course, Papa, Coriolis!! I knew we were missing something!

That will bring a completely new 'turn' to the debate...!

 

[PigFish]

1 hour ago, Fugu said:

 

Coriolis - of course, Papa, Coriolis!! I knew we were missing something!

That will bring a completely new 'turn' to the debate...!

 

... I'm all turned around now, my head is spinning!

-the Pig

[PigFish]

2 hours ago, Fugu said:

 

Absolutely - I know I do and agree, as you'll know. That'd be the perfect way! But that's not what is helping him atm, very unfortunately.

 

 

Yes, again agreed. But you aren't coming closer to that with frozen water. You are making it worse. Keep in mind - we don't have air circulation in this case, this is the critical point! Cooling without circulation is a no-go (who wouldn't know better than Monsieur Côtelette). We are going to inevitably create cold sinks and condensation. Instead, we need to keep it stable by producing as little internal gradients as possible from the get go.

 

Seems we have to go and extend our demand for the proper study design and subsequent reporting, and will need to ask our friend to setup two systems: The Piggy-makeshift-RV-humidor glacé and the Gooey-makeshift-RV-humidor non-glacée...

 

Yours, Goo

Disagree!

All (practical) air conditioning (heating or cooling) comes from a source far above or below the set point. In real time application, design protects (insulates) the environment with a combination of engineered delivery systems and the real world. There will be constant thermal transfer from the outside world into the cooler. The cooler is insulated (engineered) and none of this will happen instantly.

The interior is the same, we have closed loop cigars (isolated), then insulted from the cooling source, frozen water. Condensation is a non-starter. This is because the cigars are sealed in a closed system already. The insulation of the frozen water source needs to match the gaining of heat from the environment or none of these ideas work.

With this example there is further proof of that the nominal temperature fixed 'water tank' solution will not work. Since you cannot create an actual "water bath" such as what would be used in a lab., there will be stratification where air will heat around the cigars, and therefore transfer heat to the cigars even if they sit atop the "fixed temperature mass water (approach)." You could attempt to emulate the water bath approach with bottled water surely, yet the following paragraph deals with the problem of this approach.

Lastly, our mate has problems keeping a few boxes of cigars at a set temperature. Just how do you suggest that you have simplified his life indicating that he now needs xx liters of water, kept at the exact temperature that he cannot keep his cigar in the first place? This is not a viable solution then, it is simply an idea!!! If he could keep water at 70F, then he could keep cigars at 70F. If he cannot keep cigars at 70F then he cannot keep water at 70F. 

If you cannot have automation, you can at least emulate the conditions generated by automation. There are no practical automated solutions that condition space with air adjusted 'at' a set point temperature. Conditioned air will need to be either above or below the set point in order to move the heat from the environment to the conditioned air or vice versa moving the controlled environment "to" the set point. Practicality trumps theory in this case.

Cheers! -CCW Piggy

[PapaDisco]

Well . . . coriolis and all that aside . . .

I think the challenge here is for a low tech solution to gently releasing a small amount of cooling into the cooler currently doubling as a hassock/humidor/footstool in Geaux's Winnebago.  If you can't do that with automation and electrons then I think you do it with a small, intense lump of coldness (i.e. a freezer pak) and wrap that sucker up in a number of towels so that it feels like 70F on the outside towel.  Toss that in the cooler and you will have tripled (?) the time your cooler can maintain 70F on the inside without creating any condensing cold spots.

Talk about a gerry-rigged thing-a-ma-bob!   Now all that's left is to bolt a combination tabletop cigar cutter/toenail clipper to the top of the cooler/hassock and Geaux's good to go!   I'm assuming the cigar lighter will be permanently plumbed into the Winnie's bottled propane system? 

[Fugu]

Guys, disagreed (on both), as well. But I guess - once again - we won't come together on this one in this life... our centrifugal forces boosted too much by Coriolis.

Poppy compromising the inertia-principle, Piggy producing internal towel-wrapped deltaTs, while tapping in the dark (fog?) about the right amount for his truncated delta-dose balancing influx.... And Gooey needing some .. See you guys!

[PapaDisco]

Ha ha . . . we wore the fish out . . .

Of the non-electron solutions I agree that lots of extra mass at the desired temp is the most elegant solution, it's just a damn lot of work to execute.  Moving the heat content of 50lbs of water (6 gallons?) is more work than tossing in an a fresh freezer pack.  The hard part is guessing how much insulation to put around the pack.

[Geaux]

Wow - great ideas!  

I have about 200 sticks with me. A couple of tupper-a-dors stuffed with 62% Bovada packs. I have a good cooler they can go into on none temp controlled days in the RV... and water bottles galore. It sounds too simple to not give it a go.

Here is one for y'all.  After the 120°+ temps, several of the Bovada packs have swollen with air and the solution has turned to crystal! You can shake the bag and hear the  salt chucks in there like a maraca! Now I've had the bovada packs dry up before, into solid salt chucks... but with no air in the bag. These are inflated like a balloon. Weird.

 

Oh, and when I say 120° - that is conservative. It very well could have hit 140°. It was 109° in the shade, and the rv sat in direct sun all day... baking. So all kinds of weird chemical reactions could have went down. We are now in Texas... it is only in the 80°, but with 90% rh!  

 

As to the billing address - sorry gents, I don't have one right now. I'm living in an rv! 

[PapaDisco]

200 sticks!   I like the way you travel broheme!  

[Fugu]

15 hours ago, Geaux said:

Here is one for y'all.  After the 120°+ temps, several of the Bovada packs have swollen with air and the solution has turned to crystal! You can shake the bag and hear the  salt chucks in there like a maraca! Now I've had the bovada packs dry up before, into solid salt chucks... but with no air in the bag. These are inflated like a balloon. Weird.

Not at all. You have been "operating" your poor bovedas far beyond their specified "working range"... haha. The release rate of water from the salt mixture exceeded the ability of the membrane to let the gas diffuse across it.

 

15 hours ago, Geaux said:

Oh, and when I say 120° - that is conservative. It very well could have hit 140°.

Well, I'd say - ...... get yourself some ice, mate...  

 

15 hours ago, Geaux said:

It very well could have hit 140°. It was 109° in the shade, and the rv sat in direct sun all day... baking. So all kinds of weird chemical reactions could have went down.

And not only to your Bovedas, that's for sure...

[Fugu]

The matter kept bothering me, and I thought we can't leave Geaux alone with his problem at this point.
So today, I made some ballpark estimate in order to get a better 'feeling' for it, and it seems one must not underrate the importance of a good insulation in this case. Or - vice versa - I have to concede, it seems I undervalued the power of the given extreme deltaTs...

Once I have the time, perhaps later today, I will try and come up with some more detailed figures for heatflux, related temp. changes etc.

Stay tuned gents,

Goo

[Fugu]

Here's what I've come up with:

For a stash of 200 cigars, I figure Geaux will be good with about 30-l storage volume (i.e. 8-10 boxes of different sizes). In order to allow for added water volume for stabilization/cooling, we thus better go for a total of 40 l.

So, I am using a "model" box of the internal dimensions 50 x 40 x 20 cm for all subsequent calculations. We will simplify our consideration, in that heatflux across all surfaces will be assumed to be equal, we omit edge-/geometric-effects and also effects of stratification etc.. This whole thing is just to get a rough idea of what may be expected, a ballpark figure.

Now, we need to know some parameters for the input: The surface area A of our box, we need the specif. heat-conduction properties of our materilal (lambda), and the temp-diff dT, in order to calculate the heatflux Q. And we need to know the specific heat capacity C of water to then be able to make an assessment of internal temperature changes effected by this energy influx.

Input parameters

A: Surface area for the model box is 0.75 m²

lambda: for expanded styrofoam, given to be in the range 0.03- 0.04 W m^-1 K^-1, 0.035 used here

C_water: 4.2 kJ kg^-1 K^-1

Variables:

dT: Will be taken to be 30°C (internal 70°F, external 120°F)

D: Insulation thickness, will be considered between 35mm and 90 mm

Heatflux Q in (J s^-1) = A * lambda * dT / D

Calculating this heatflux for a set of different insulation dimensions, we get the heatflux (energy influx) in Joule per second (=W). Now, knowing the specific heat capacity of water, we are able to calculate the theoretical temperature change for a given water mass over the course of a certain time span. Here, period of one hour taken as a basis. Results:

This example shows, that even and only for very thick insulation dimensions and with a comparatively large mass of water (8 kg, corr. to about five 1.5-l bottles), the system can be stabilized to a rate of temp. rise of only about 1 °C per hour. That means that after 8 hours in full heat we still have to face a temp- rise in the box of between 8 and 16 °C. Still better that the full amplitude, but still not good enough. We might be overestimating a bit here due to some simplifications, but by and large this is about it, making a rather conservative apporach.

So, indeed, as Piggy proposed, it seems for these extreme temperature differences, we will have to try and counteract with cooling. A purely passive system will not do it, unless we go for a oversized insulation....

The question remaining, how much cooling will be needed?

 

[Fugu]

A similar simple geometrical approach here as well. Let's consider the ice-mass as a frozen 1.5-l bottle of water. Dimensions 8.5 cm diam * 28 cm. This will be insulated with a kind of styrofoam jacket of a certain dimension.

If we take the 50-mm box as example, we would have to balance a 16 W energy influx for a 120°F-day.

Taking a bottle of the above dimensions, we'd have a surface area of about 0.1 m2, and we assume a dT of 20°C (temp ice 0°C - desired stable storage temp 20°C).
Calculated heatflux for this setup for a mantle of 20 mm and 15 mm styrofoam results in a heatflux of 3.8 W (20-mm mantle) to  5.1 W (15 mm mantle) for a deltaT of 20 °C.

That means, to counteract the 16 W heat influx, about four 1.5-l bottles with a 20-mm insulation would be needed for balancing (again, provided heat transfer and distribution were homogeneous, which it isn't the case in the real word - this is just a trial of a simple approximation).

Since we do know the specific melting energy for water ice, we are able to even estimate the maximum operation period of our ice-battery: Specific heat of fusion (melting heat) for water/ice is about 333 kJ/kg. Resulting in a total op-time of about 36 hours for a 1.5-kg ice pack for the 3.8-W-system (@ 20-mm insulation).

Problem with all this cooling is, that it is quite difficult to foresee the actual conditions during the day (I suppose). For the different ambient temperatures, the actual heatflow will in turn be highly variable as well, and so the internal cooling needs proper adjustment. E.g. for a supposed 50-mm insulation:

dT 30: 16 W
dT 20: 10.5 W
dT 10:  5.25 W

So the actual decision for the amount of cooling, or if any active cooling will be necessary at all, will depend a lot on how good Geaux will be able to forecast the conditions his Winnebago will be facing during the day.

[PapaDisco]

Y'know, I was just gonna say that exact same thing!  Uncanny!

Actually, I'm going to have to go back a reread all that, really sloooooowly.

With regards to the ice, it would be interesting if there were an insulating material that could change its transmission properties based on local temperature.  Kind of like have a Boveda pack but for cooling.