Dress Box Aging Question

[SCgarman]

I think you all are over-thinking the whole thing. Far more vitolas are available in dress boxes than in cabinets. If dress boxes were that bad, Cuba would just package everything in wooden cabs. I just buy my boxes, freeze for a couple of days and stack them in the humidor cabinet sans the brass nail that holds the lid down to the box. I can pack far more dress boxes in my cabinet as they are more compact and take up less room. With cigars, there is no right or wrong with many things such as packaging and storage and humidification. Just do what works best for you and enjoy the hobby, if your cigars smoke well, taste good then that is all that matters.

[planetary]

Obvious, but may be worth repeating that in the interior of a cigar a massively high percentage leaf's surface is already touching other tobacco. (Heck, even over half the surface of the wrapper is touching either the binder leaf or other portions of the wrapper.)

[Fugu]

With cigars, there is no right or wrong with many things such as packaging and storage and humidification. Just do what works best for you and enjoy the hobby, if your cigars smoke well, taste good then that is all that matters.

I must say I find the regular comments of the 'carefree' type, like "doesn't matter" or "don't overthink" always rather annoying. No offense Cgarman, but at some point in a thread about technical aspects, you always get comments of that kind, when people don't want to plunge any deeper into the matter.

Of course ! there is a, if not strictly "right or wrong", so certainly a "good" or "bad" to it. That's a part of the reasons why people gather here for discussion and exchanging ideas and information.

And if people ask serious questions, in particular if it is a new member like the OP, we should take the time to answer to our best knowledge in order to put him in a position to get him cigars that "smoke well". My 2cts

[SCgarman]

I must say I find the regular comments of the 'carefree' type, like "doesn't matter" or "don't overthink" always rather annoying. No offense Cgarman, but at some point in a thread about technical aspects, you always get comments of that kind, when people don't want to plunge any deeper into the matter.

Of course ! there is a, if not strictly "right or wrong", so certainly a "good" or "bad" to it. That's a part of the reasons why people gather here for discussion and exchanging ideas and information.

And if people ask serious questions, in particular if it is a new member like the OP, we should take the time to answer to our best knowledge in order to put him in a position to get him cigars that "smoke well". My 2cts

Well I am so sorry if I offended you sir and will certainly think twice before I start to add my 2c to the conversation. Maybe you should volunteer to be a moderator here so you can just delete posts that are "annoying" to you including mine. I promise it will never ever happen again.

[Fugu]

Cgarman, was certainly not meant in an offensive way, and even not necessarily meant towards you personally or you alone. Your post was just the motive (and perhaps wrong time wrong place, sorry!). May be also my wording was inappropriate, and I didn’t mean ‘annoying’ but rather more like ‘off-turning’ to a discussion. So, please do accept my honest apologies if I sounded too harsh or personal!

Perhaps its just me, as I am getting this sort of commenting rather frequently when trying to provide answers. The usual statements like your “you are over-thinking the whole thing” can likewise be offending to someone who is honestly looking to provide some deliberate contribution. Sometimes, matters aren’t simple, so aren't answers. Therefore, such commenting can truly kill off a discussion thread, and I already had that a few times during my short presence here on FOH. In this case, I was about adding some more info to this thread, but after having read your post, that appeared not very encouraging to me.

[Fugu]

I understand the question. As Smallclub brought up, cigar-to-cedar may or may not be superior to cigar-to-cigar contact. Somebody at some time decided to go with that for some reason.

Not to correct you, NSX, but in adding some further thoughts in between your lines:

The cedar sheet will serve two main purposes: The first one simply being ease of packaging. The second one being that the cedar sheet between the two layers mainly acts as a mechanical means to ensure an even pressure distribution put on the cigars. As we all know, by their nature, cigars show differences in filling (compactness) and diameter (ring gauge). Would one leave the cedar sheet out, the sides of the two cigar rows facing each other would become very irregular, depending on how good the singles in the two rows match up when aligned in the box and how evenly they had been rolled. If done otherwise, the more compact, solid cigar would squeeze the underfilled one, etc.. The cedar sheet guarantees that an even, rectangular shape is obtained with parallel (and e.g. not partially prismatic) surfaces, and that single cigars are not being excessively squeezed and deformed when dress boxes are pressed in the vise.

Also, dress boxes are ostensibly more porous than cabinets and aren't the ideal method for achieving the best long-term aging results.

From my own experience, I also don’t buy too much into this quite common assertion. The normal cab-boxes are actually rather permeable. And a sheet of wood/plywood or even tobacco itself is no barrier to air molecules. There even is no simple “cab-box” versus “dress-box” category, since there is a huge difference between standard slide lid boxes (SLB) and the, mostly, varnished ones of Cohiba, or varnished 8-9-8, varnished SBN, BN, lacquered ones, etc.

The plain SLBs are in fact pretty poor with regard to gas permeability. Even dress boxes appear better in this respect, which, for me, come behind varnished ones. You can easily check this yourself by seeing how quick plain cabinet boxes and contained cigars equilibrate to your storage humidity.

With a little tweaking, my dress boxes are aging as 'gracefully' as my SLBs. (seems I even concur with NYCigarman in this aspect…!)

Cabinets were designed for long-term aging.

Cabinet boxes were actually designed for “cabinets”. This was foremost a transport issue. The cigars for the large storage cabinets of certain importers, where full wheels and halfwheels were on display, had to be protected during shipping. And for that reason, the slide lid cabinet boxes had been invented early in the 20s century. The influence on aging is a second hand effect, coming in the wake of that. Cigars had actually even been stored unpacked in those cabinets, if you check out the pictures of that time. And the fact that these “cabinet selection” cigars usually were of higher quality will certainly have added to the praise of that packaging.

[Smoker]

I understand the question. As Smallclub brought up, cigar-to-cedar may or may not be superior to cigar-to-cigar contact. Somebody at some time decided to go with that for some reason.

Another thing worth noting: The manufacturers didn't only choose Spanish Cedar because it imparts, what some believe to be, beneficial flavours to the cigars. They also chose this wood to package cigars because of its ability to hold moisture, and therefore act as a moisture-regulator of sorts. In addition, the smell of this wood is supposed to repel tobacco worms.

[Lotusguy]

Cgarman, was certainly not meant in an offensive way, and even not necessarily meant towards you personally or you alone. Your post was just the motive (and perhaps wrong time wrong place, sorry!). May be also my wording was inappropriate, and I didn’t mean ‘annoying’ but rather more like ‘off-turning’ to a discussion. So, please do accept my honest apologies if I sounded too harsh or personal!

Perhaps its just me, as I am getting this sort of commenting rather frequently when trying to provide answers. The usual statements like your “you are over-thinking the whole thing” can likewise be offending to someone who is honestly looking to provide some deliberate contribution. Sometimes, matters aren’t simple, so aren't answers. Therefore, such commenting can truly kill off a discussion thread, and I already had that a few times during my short presence here on FOH. In this case, I was about adding some more info to this thread, but after having read your post, that appeared not very encouraging to me.

I could do what you do - write pages long essays filled with assumptions trying to prove a point.

Or I could do what I do and not overthink things and enjoy cigars how I personally like them aged, stored, lit, et cetera.

We both have an equal amount of scientific evidence: none

Taste is and always will be, subjective.

[TonyAccardo]

Not to correct you, NSX, but in adding some further thoughts in between your lines:

The cedar sheet will serve two main purposes: The first one simply being ease of packaging. The second one being that the cedar sheet between the two layers mainly acts as a mechanical means to ensure an even pressure distribution put on the cigars. As we all know, by their nature, cigars show differences in filling (compactness) and diameter (ring gauge). Would one leave the cedar sheet out, the sides of the two cigar rows facing each other would become very irregular, depending on how good the singles in the two rows match up when aligned in the box and how evenly they had been rolled. If done otherwise, the more compact, solid cigar would squeeze the underfilled one, etc.. The cedar sheet guarantees that an even, rectangular shape is obtained with parallel (and e.g. not partially prismatic) surfaces, and that single cigars are not being excessively squeezed and deformed when dress boxes are pressed in the vise.

From my own experience, I also don’t buy too much into this quite common assertion. The normal cab-boxes are actually rather permeable. And a sheet of wood/plywood or even tobacco itself is no barrier to air molecules. There even is no simple “cab-box” versus “dress-box” category, since there is a huge difference between standard slide lid boxes (SLB) and the, mostly, varnished ones of Cohiba, or varnished 8-9-8, varnished SBN, BN, lacquered ones, etc.

The plain SLBs are in fact pretty poor with regard to gas permeability. Even dress boxes appear better in this respect, which, for me, come behind varnished ones. You can easily check this yourself by seeing how quick plain cabinet boxes and contained cigars equilibrate to your storage humidity.

With a little tweaking, my dress boxes are aging as 'gracefully' as my SLBs. (seems I even concur with NYCigarman in this aspect…!)

Cabinet boxes were actually designed for “cabinets”. This was foremost a transport issue. The cigars for the large storage cabinets of certain importers, where full wheels and halfwheels were on display, had to be protected during shipping. And for that reason, the slide lid cabinet boxes had been invented early in the 20s century. The influence on aging is a second hand effect, coming in the wake of that. Cigars had actually even been stored unpacked in those cabinets, if you check out the pictures of that time. And the fact that these “cabinet selection” cigars usually were of higher quality will certainly have added to the praise of that packaging.

You are dead on right about this and I think they still have the video on YouTube up where Simon Chase is inspecting a cabinet found in the cellar of some English gentleman that held 1000 Upmann perfectos. They were stored in bundles only back in the late 1800's.

[NSXCIGAR]

Agree with all of the above, good info.

I should have probably rephrased my statement to say cabinets were designed with aging in mind, not necessarily designed for aging. There were multiple factors that served as the impetus for the packaging design, as noted above--transportation, display, etc.

And of course noted that there is certainly a difference in density and porousness between CB/SLB/SBN/BN/VW/JAR. The UW SLB may not be that much more advantageous to the paper DB for long term aging. The slide lid seal is never very precise...

I'd venture to guess the varnished 898 box may be the most effective packaging for aging. Varnished, cedar interior, good cigar-to-cigar contact, good tight sealing. I'd say foil wrap and jar second, but with no cedar interior, possibly the VBN box comes in second as it does have the sealing collars despite the 2-layer cigar format.

[Smallclub]

I'd venture to guess the varnished 898 box may be the most effective packaging for aging. Varnished, cedar interior, good cigar-to-cigar contact, good tight sealing.

Definitely. I even remember how a very famous swiss merchant, in the late 90's, advised to stock the 898 cab partially open (in an humidor).

At that time the rule was "cigars must breath"…

[Fugu]

I could do what you do - write pages long essays filled with assumptions trying to prove a point.

Or I could do what I do and not overthink things and enjoy cigars how I personally like them aged, stored, lit, et cetera.

We both have an equal amount of scientific evidence: none

Taste is and always will be, subjective.

Trying to play the ball, Lotus: Strange manners, isn’t it? Someone apologizes to another forum member and a third party feels entitled to boldly chime in?!

As to “assumptions, facts and evidences”

Read the literature, talk to people in the know, in industry and connoisseurs, be a scientist yourself, well, simply gain knowledge and you’ll best see for yourself - provided you don’t just have a lowbrow interest in all things related to the leaf. It’s certainly not on me to direct you to the available sources of information.

[Fugu]

And of course noted that there is certainly a difference in density and porousness between CB/SLB/SBN/BN/VW/JAR. The UW SLB may not be that much more advantageous to the paper DB for long term aging. The slide lid seal is never very precise...

I'd venture to guess the varnished 898 box may be the most effective packaging for aging. Varnished, cedar interior, good cigar-to-cigar contact, good tight sealing. I'd say foil wrap and jar second, but with no cedar interior, possibly the VBN box comes in second as it does have the sealing collars despite the 2-layer cigar format.

Yep, agree with that.

[Lotusguy]

Trying to play the ball, Lotus: Strange manners, isn’t it? Someone apologizes to another forum member and a third party feels entitled to boldly chime in?!

As to “assumptions, facts and evidences”

Read the literature, talk to people in the know, in industry and connoisseurs, be a scientist yourself, well, simply gain knowledge and you’ll best see for yourself - provided you don’t just have a lowbrow interest in all things related to the leaf. It’s certainly not on me to direct you to the available sources of information.

We simply have a very different approach, brother. I did read one of your comments above as directed towards me - maybe mistakenly. It doesn't really matter.

What we do have in common is the enjoyment of those rolled tobacco leaf sticks.

[Blakes]

Something else to note is since the mid 90's the wood used for the boxes is no longer solid, it's now all ply.

Meaning they all have multiple layers of glue within the boxes regardless of the type. This will have affected how they breath etc.. Making the way they behave (between varnished and unvarnished) much closer together, if there is any difference at all anymore.

[PigFish]

... charged with an inert gas is the only way to go!!! -LOL

Here is my problem. I keep getting cigars with the BUY, SELL, HOLD labels removed! Oh, sorry, I mean smoke, store, age!...

I think we all likely have habits that others consider folly. I am as guilty as the next, certainly. I am an environment freak. As a freak, I see freakishness clearly... -LOL MHO!

Water content has a clear, historical road in being a primary cause in ruining cigars and tobacco in general. In the thousands of pages of tobacco white papers that I have read, I have never read anything in the mainstream production of tobacco industry that has any reference to "air supply" being bad for tobacco. As it is a means to cure tobacco, there is a lot written about it whereas controlling air circulation, temperature and rH are the 3 factors that most affect tobacco produciton. Right or wrong, I see restrictive air practices it as a concoction of the collector community. I see it as folly...

If a layer of plastic wrap, tin foil, depleted uranium, et al, makes you feel better about your cigars, then have at it! It is cheap insurance (in some cases). If you don't like the force of gravity, the box, the paper, the gamma rays or O2 then change it... As I see it, you won't be the first nor last guy with a bug in your rear about storing your cigars. It is a faith all in and of itself.

Cigar forums are a place where we discuss things, folly or not! Most smokers establish their beliefs and habits from adoption of other smokers and the logic (or junk science) that goes along with it. I don't suppose that is going to change anytime soon. It is usually about throwing a few dollars at it and going forward.

With water content being at the root of the most documented damage to cigars, it never ceases to amaze me that one can buy 10K worth of cigars and attempt to protect it from water damage with a $10 hygrometer and $200 worth of Saran wrap!!! -LOL I often wonder about priorities, but that is my folly, one of many!

Cheers all! -Piggy

[Fugu]

Good post Ray, which would usually spark a few thoughts from my side.

This is multilayered. What you are describing with regard to industry and collectors is mostly correct. And it is exactly how it is to be expected by the nature of things, doesn’t come by surprise at all. I am not going to expand on it in this thread, but have a very clear conception about it. As usual of course – with nothing to back it up…

And, on a side note: tungsten is used, not depleted uranium…!

[PigFish]

Good post Ray, which would usually spark a few thoughts from my side.

This is multilayered. What you are describing with regard to industry and collectors is mostly correct. And it is exactly how it is to be expected by the nature of things, doesn’t come by surprise at all. I am not going to expand on it in this thread, but have a very clear conception about it. As usual of course – with nothing to back it up…

And, on a side note: tungsten is used, not depleted uranium…!

This is not really a discussion that can be backed up! That is the fun and folly of it I suppose...

A large part of cigar smoking is based on a belief system. That is just the way it has developed. I think it is better to be clear about it and disclosed biases and present one's self with the caveats that indicate one's beliefs as beliefs, but all need not stoop to my level... ;-)

Post away mate, it makes the conversation worth reading, even if it makes you look foolish posting it!

Looking foolish never has stopped me...!!! -LOL

-Ray

Oh, tungsten carbide, too brittle!

[earthson]

I maintain a "small" collection (by y'all's standards, not my wife's) and as such, most cigars I buy are burnt within 5 years of my purchase. I've always gone by the theory that increased airflow accelerates aging. Seems to work.

Now will some FOG please tell me I'm wrong!?

[Fugu]

For people that smoke their stash within 5 yrs - I'd say get as much air access as you possibly can!

[Blakes]

For people that smoke their stash within 5 yrs - I'd say get as much air access as you possibly can!

I also think a slightly varying temp. helps with this, as opposed to a rigid set temp.

[RijkdeGooier]

On this topic there has been much debate, but in all my years no conclusive proof or evidence was ever offered.

From my own interpretation this proof is hard to come by because of the ceteribus paribus condition, which in almost all practical situational evidence has not been met.

Some of my wise friends, and I adhere to them because of their experience, believe that the primal influence is constant conditions. After those have been achieved packaging may play a role.

Case in point being the seleccion cedar cases which tend to go woody over time or some cardboard packs transferring taste under unfavorable circumstances.

[Silverstix]

[Chucko8]

I had just figured if was packaged like that it must be considered safe by the manufacturer. So straight into the cooler they go for me