Aging

[planetary]

I've seen Dr. Joe's YouTube videos on the topic of sick periods. I don't know if Cuba has changed its production process since before I started purchasing, or Rob filters sick cigars out -- but I've never received anything which meets Min Ron Nee's description of a sick cigar.

[Smallclub]

I've seen Dr. Joe's YouTube videos on the topic of sick periods.

"Sick period" is a thing of the past. I can't even remember the last time I met a "sick" cigar...

[Colt45]

Great post Ross! -R

Thanks Ray - I think it's an interesting topic, and it's always good to hear different points of view.

But aging is not about turning a poor cigar into a good one! And I think that's even not what you are actually expecting, is it?

No, not at all - we surely need to start with a properly produced cigar. And while I do think cigars can mature / evolve with time, I've come around to the point of view (generally speaking) that it's difficult and perhaps pointless to try to determine with certainty how they will mature / evolve.

Back to the wine analogy - again, I think if you have a history with the wines of a good producer in a good vintage, it's easier to determine a timeline of characteristic evolution.

[TonyAccardo]

I've seen Dr. Joe's YouTube videos on the topic of sick periods. I don't know if Cuba has changed its production process since before I started purchasing, or Rob filters sick cigars out -- but I've never received anything which meets Min Ron Nee's description of a sick cigar.

Listening to Dr Joe and believing he is an authority on anything except being a know it all blowhard would be ones first mistake. I've also watched a fair few of his videos and the more I watched, the more I realized this guy doesn't know anymore than most 1st year cigar hobbyists. It seems that he's so intent on trying to be the ultimate authority on online Cuban cigar buying, that he's closed his mind down to being able to receive any kind of information beyond what he deems credible.

He constantly goes on and on about how this one Cuban cigar vendor is the greatest out there yet I, and obviously others out there since he made a video on it, have received house blend cigars that have short filler in them and not JLP short filler either, but like Swisher Sweets short filler. Absolutely horrible and yet he goes out of his way to make a video on how that person has no clue and is just a dumb person. Anybody who so vehemently denies that any wrong doing on the vendors part is possible gives me room for pause. I would never again buy from any of the vendors he so enthusiastically recommends. But then again, being a customer of Rob's is like being on a warm, calm island beach after having been at a Stormy sea for weeks and barely surviving.

[PapaDisco]

I've seen Dr. Joe's YouTube videos on the topic of sick periods. I don't know if Cuba has changed its production process since before I started purchasing, or Rob filters sick cigars out -- but I've never received anything which meets Min Ron Nee's description of a sick cigar.

I have only once had a box that opened with a distinct ammonia smell, and (surprise surprise) it was a box of current year (in 2014) Behike 56's of all things! A cigar that's supposed to be more matured by the time of rolling than the regular production stock. Anyway, one box out of 100 says to me that ammonia is pretty much a thing of the past, but that stuff can still slip through on the rare occasion. Let's face it; no matter how hard you try to ferment leaf evenly, you're still doing it in pilones and there's only so much predictability/precision that you can impart to that process: as much art as science!

[Orion21]

I've seen Dr. Joe's YouTube videos on the topic of sick periods. I don't know if Cuba has changed its production process since before I started purchasing, or Rob filters sick cigars out -- but I've never received anything which meets Min Ron Nee's description of a sick cigar.

I would take what "Dr. Joe" says with a grain of salt. That is one person's opinion and in my judgement his opinion should come with a warning. He sure seems to buy a lot of stuff, but he has recycled the same old same old's and holds it out to be fact. I honestly can't stomach the loud mouth, but to each their own.

[PigFish]

I would take what "Dr. Joe" says with a grain of salt. That is one person's opinion and in my judgement his opinion should come with a warning. He sure seems to buy a lot of stuff, but he has recycled the same old same old's and holds it out to be fact. I honestly can't stomach the loud mouth, but to each their own.

Good'ol Dr. J... !

Is this the same guy (whom with surrogates) labeled Rob and I (collectively) communist conspirators??? -LOL

I am not interested in another dog pile but I just had to weigh in on this one!

My friends, Wiki should redefine the meaning of expert as 'Any guy with internet access and a keyboard!'

-the Conspirator Pig

[PapaDisco]

Good'ol Dr. J... !

Is this the same guy (whom with surrogates) labeled Rob and I (collectively) communist conspirators??? -LOL

I am not interested in another dog pile but I just had to weigh in on this one!

My friends, Wiki should redefine the meaning of expert as 'Any guy with internet access and a keyboard!'

-the Conspirator Pig

Sheesh! Really?! Anyone with half a brain knows you guys are subversives not conspirators! Maybe with a wee bit of the instigator as well . . .

[PigFish]

Sheesh! Really?! Anyone with half a brain knows you guys are subversives not conspirators! Maybe with a wee bit of the instigator as well . . .

... you left out just regular a-hole! Speaking for myself, not Rob, unless you have a hotel room above the balcony where he is smoking!

-Piggy

[KGM]

I would take what "Dr. Joe" says with a grain of salt. That is one person's opinion and in my judgement his opinion should come with a warning. He sure seems to buy a lot of stuff, but he has recycled the same old same old's and holds it out to be fact. I honestly can't stomach the loud mouth, but to each their own.

I've tried to watch a couple of his videos, but the constant berating and attacks on his commenters is just really immature and annoying. Not that I agree with those who comment on his video channel (actually don't think I've read them), but it's just hard to get past the opening of every video when he's arguing like a child.

[joejack11]

you dont know what you got till you smoke it,

looks is just a part of it... but not entire.

ive had some psp's look great, and a 2nd's look okay, but the 2nd's kicked the psp's butt in terms of flavor and age ability.

[Smoker]

I think aging is a topic that deserves a sticky in the forum. Newcomers to cigar smoking, and indeed pipe smoking, are not usually aware that people buy and age their tobacco. This is more something that is associated with wines. In fact, even as a daily pipe smoker of around 10 years (aging is big in the pipe smoking community) I wasn't fully aware of how popular aging cigars had become.

Aging is basically allowing the sugars in a tobacco to ferment, and this produces what most people consider to be, an improvement in the flavour. The more sugar in a tobacco, the more scope there is for aging. Sugar gets into a tobacco either because it is contained in the leaf when it is grown, or because it is added later (and in the case of pipe tobacco it is almost always both). One way to increase the natural concentration of sugar within a leaf, is during the processing stage(s). For example, flue curing will preserve the sugars more than air curing.

As far as I know, the leaves used to make our cigars are not particularly high in sugar-content, nor are they flue-cured, and nor is any sugar added during manufacture of the cigars. Does anyone have information on this? I wasn't able to find reliable data on the sugar content of cuban tobacco leaves. But it seems to me that on paper, cigars are not very well suited to aging. Obviously in the real world, many cigars do benefit from aging, there is no question on that. I would just like to see some scientific data for it.

Maduro wrappers should contain the most sugar, due to the way they are processed. So in theory, cigars with a maduro wrapper should be better suited to aging. Does anyone have experience of aging Maduros to support/refute this theory?

[Fugu]

Mate, it seems youre confusing aging and fermentation.

The sugar fermentation takes place during curing and - fermenting. Most aging processes in tobacco - quite like in wine - happen without any microbic activity, i.e. without a fermentation (or 'microfermentation', as some like to term it) process involved. Most transformations during aging are of pure chemical nature, whis is also why they occur so slowly.

[Smoker]

Mate, it seems youre confusing aging and fermentation.

The sugar fermentation takes place during curing and - fermenting. Most aging processes in tobacco - quite like in wine - happen without any microbic activity, i.e. without a fermentation (or 'microfermentation', as some like to term it) process involved. Most transformations during aging are of pure chemical nature, whis is also why they occur so slowly.

With pipe tobacco it's fermentation (in sealed tins). In fact I think they refer to it as anaerobic fermentation. With cigars, I don't know the right term - that's what I want to learn about.

[Smallclub]

Aging is basically allowing the sugars in a tobacco to ferment, and this produces what most people consider to be, an improvement in the flavour.

Err... it's WAY more complex than that. The obsession on "sugars" is widespread among pipe smokers (and I am one of them) but it's a simplistic view IMHO.

[TonyAccardo]

I think one of the best documentaries out there right now relating to this sort of thing is the new SOMM: Into the Bottle. As you watch it, you think "They need to make a documentary about Cuban cigars just like this doc."

By the way Smallclub, I've always loved your avatar, whatever it is.

[Smallclub]

By the way Smallclub, I've always loved your avatar, whatever it is.

I believe it's the young banjo player in the movie Deliverance... ta ta ting ta ting ta ting…

[Fugu]

With pipe tobacco it's fermentation (in sealed tins). In fact I think they refer to it as anaerobic fermentation. With cigars, I don't know the right term - that's what I want to learn about.

While I am cellaring a few tins of pipe tobacco myself, I don’t know enough about the processes that might be going on in sealed tins to say anything definite. But there are some considerable differences between pipe and cigar tobacco. Starting with varietals, over the timing of harvesting to processing. In the final product, the moisture and in most cases also the sugar content will be much higher in pipe tobacco than in cigar tobacco.

But let’s first go back and define the term “fermentation” - this may consist of microbiotic as well as enzymatic transformations of substrates. While I’d expect that fermentation by microorganismic action (bacteria, yeasts, other fungi) will not play a major role in the finished product, some enzymatic activity might still be retained. This might find better working conditions in pipe tobacco, mainly due to its higher moisture content. But at low storage temps, far from the activity optimum, this will likely be running at very, very slow rates.

In a finished cigar, however, with its around 12% substrate moisture, there won’t be happening much anymore. But, what some of us may observe (Davidoff has been describing that as well), when they store their cigars without temp control, is a certain “fermentation” smell that develops when temps go up during the warmer season, in particular in younger boxes. This may derive from purely chemical as well as perhaps also some retained enzymatic activity. Though most enzymes that have been set free from the cell are not very stable in the long term and will be broken down over time. So, the final product is rather stable with regard to “fermentation”…while - very strictly spoken - some processes that may qualify under the technical term “fermentation” might still be going on, at least for some time, and at very low turnover rates.

So, I think it is mostly a matter of definition and gradation, but sugar fermentation will most certainly not play a role in cigar’s aging. Even during the fermentation process of tobacco in the piles, among others the main purpose of this process is the breakdown of certain proteins and quite importanty – nicotine.

[Fugu]

As an additional thought - anaerobic fermentation of sugars will release CO₂. Stoichiometric, this will lead to a volume increase. So, pipe tobacco tins would quickly lose their vaccuum. Therefore, I even doubt that much sugar fermentation is going on in tinned pipe tobacco either.

[mgravito]

While I am cellaring a few tins of pipe tobacco myself, I don’t know enough about the processes that might be going on in sealed tins to say anything definite. But there are some considerable differences between pipe and cigar tobacco. Starting with varietals, over the timing of harvesting to processing. In the final product, the moisture and in most cases also the sugar content will be much higher in pipe tobacco than in cigar tobacco.

But let’s first go back and define the term “fermentation” - this may consist of microbiotic as well as enzymatic transformations of substrates. While I’d expect that fermentation by microorganismic action (bacteria, yeasts, other fungi) will not play a major role in the finished product, some enzymatic activity might still be retained. This might find better working conditions in pipe tobacco, mainly due to its higher moisture content. But at low storage temps, far from the activity optimum, this will likely be running at very, very slow rates.

In a finished cigar, however, with its around 12% substrate moisture, there won’t be happening much anymore. But, what some of us may observe (Davidoff has been describing that as well), when they store their cigars without temp control, is a certain “fermentation” smell that develops when temps go up during the warmer season, in particular in younger boxes. This may derive from purely chemical as well as perhaps also some retained enzymatic activity. Though most enzymes that have been set free from the cell are not very stable in the long term and will be broken down over time. So, the final product is rather stable with regard to “fermentation”…while - very strictly spoken - some processes that may qualify under the technical term “fermentation” might still be going on, at least for some time, and at very low turnover rates.

So, I think it is mostly a matter of definition and gradation, but sugar fermentation will most certainly not play a role in cigar’s aging. Even during the fermentation process of tobacco in the piles, among others the main purpose of this process is the breakdown of certain proteins and quite importanty – nicotine.

[Orion21]

Screw all of this!!!

I am packing all my aging boxes in a sealed airtight stainless steel drum and burying it in the back yard. No light, no oxygen, no heat - just mother nature preserving them for as long as I'd like

[Lotusguy]

You can overthink, analyze, plan all you want - you will never know for sure how well a cigar ages until it's aged - and then it's too late to go back and un-age it.

[Colt45]

You can overthink, analyze, plan all you want - you will never know for sure how well a cigar ages until it's aged - and then it's too late to go back and un-age it.

A big part of the cigar aging conundrum

[ChefBoyRG54]

If I had a cigar time machine and I sent some to the future, would they age during the trip?

[earthson]

It all depends on the brand for me. Most, like Upmanns and Larranagas, are bought (frequently) and then instantly buried for at least 2 years from box code. A few others (RyJ and Partagas) are good to go with a little humi adjustment time (although they definitely get better with age). For me, I aim for 3-10 years of age since that's where most have had time to marry and evolve, but not lose any of the slap'n'tickle I like.