Aging

[mcease022]

Hi All,

I haven't explored this too much, but I was wondering what your experience has been with aging cigars. I am a wine buff, so I know the drinking window of wine and when it develops its best qualities and when it eventually goes bad. I read that you can store cigars indefinitely, but is there a period in time when they smoke the best? Do they develop different flavours over time and continue to evolve or is there a period in time that they reach a plateau and will not change any more? Thanks!

[Anthonyjoseph89]

All cigars are different, Cubans see the biggest transitions in my opinion. Buy a box or two, smoke it, leave it alone for 6 months and try it again. Either gets sick, probably not much better, or is the same, repeat after 6 more months until you find the sweet spot. Non Cubans on the other hand, sure I'm sure they can age, but I don't particularly care for them enough to try. Fuentes age well I suppose, like opus X. And some cigars age out usually to mild to begin with in the first place. Some guys say you need a strong cigar to age....I kinda disagree to a point, if it was true all these tatuaje and liga smokes would be wonderful after 10 years. (Some are, most aren't) but again this is all just my BS opinion .

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[JohnS]

All cigars are different, Cubans see the biggest transitions in my opinion. Buy a box or two, smoke it, leave it alone for 6 months and try it again. Either gets sick, probably not much better, or is the same, repeat after 6 more months until you find the sweet spot.

Exactly, spot on! Get your box, smoke through it every 6 months or so, and then you'll know when they are in their prime. I think El Pres gets pm'ed/e-mailed this type of question regularly, he often notes on 24:24 sales cigars that begin to peak from 3 to 5 years of age. Some (such as the Por Larranaga Petit Corona) can take longer. It's true that cigars can be kept indefinitely, but do you want/need a cigar to age more than 10 years? (The answer to this question would vary from person to person.) In some cases, cigars over 10 years are still outstanding as the following thread proves...

http://www.friendsofhabanos.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=124524

The benefits of aging may also vary, depending on the marca. Again, this is all subjective...

http://www.friendsofhabanos.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=124266

And sometimes aging may not be the 'be all and ed all'!....

http://www.friendsofhabanos.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=123807

[PapaDisco]

If you're not into trial-and-error random sampling here are a few thoughts to start with:

1. 3-5 years of age improves just about any cigar. Personally, I'm closer to the 5 year opinion than the three year, but my experience is much more limited than the other guys here. So if you find a cigar you like and want to stock up, order 2-3 boxes extra and put 'em down deep for several years, no need to sample every 6m unless you just enjoy the journey (and who doesn't?).

2. Aging needs will vary by some marcas. The example John mentioned, Por Larranaga, is a particularly good example. The 2011 Encantos are an absolute delight now, but in the last third the sharpness of youth returns from all of the rich oils and volatile compounds building up. They can likely go another 5 years down before hitting peak, smooth perfection. I bought a box to enjoy now and two to lay down for another 5 years . . . just because I'm so wishy-washy and can't decide!

3. Experiment with purging, and use this information to inform your aging decisions and thoughts about which marcas to go long and which to go short. As we smoke a cigar, some stuff burns of course, but a lot of the volatile compounds and flavors also melt just in front of the flame front and those vapors build up in the last 1/3 of the cigar as you smoke it. This can be pleasurable to a point and then it can get harsh or nippy. A cigar at its perfect age will see very little or none of this, and of course this experience also varies from personal palate to palate. My point is that, when you purge a cigar, and light the vapors coming off the foot, you get a measure of just how rich the remaining oils are. For example my 2011 Encantos, skinny though they be, are freakin' flame throwers that put a Siglo VI to shame. This little experiment/party trick helps refresh the flavor of any smoke that might be showing youthy mongrel in the tail end, and it also adds to our opinion on a stick, how rich it is, to inform our thoughts on aging that stick.

4. Seal or don't seal. This one seems like a permanent split decision. There's a lot of guys that say cigars need fresh air to age. I'm the exact opposite. Once the ammonia phase has passed (likely by the time you get them), I say seal them up and let them age in their own chemistry. Some guys who do this go with tin foil and tape or saran wrap owing to its lower permeability. I just use ziplocks (which are surprisingly permeable). Whenever I pop open a tuperdore of 30-40 boxes I'm aging I get the most amazing aromas out of it (evidence of the permeability of ziplock bags!) and it is just absolute heaven. Anyway, sealing them up is my own preference, a large number of other guys disagree, but you wouldn't age wine with the cork missing, right? ;-)

5. There's tons of Cubans that are intensely pleasurable ROTT. PSD4's, Epi 2's, current R&J Churchills, Punch Punch, etc. So figuring out your personal aging strategy and buying a bit of current stock along with some stock to lay down covers all the bases and is good fun.

[RijkdeGooier]

Well said PapaDisco

[planetary]

I have a somewhat extensive pipe tobacco cellar with many tins over 10, 15, and even some over 20 years of age. So I'm quite aware of the benefits of sealed containers creating an anaerobic environment over long years.

Can someone expand on the benefits and methods of "sealing" boxes of cigars? I would like to learn more...

[PigFish]

Aging cigars is coincidental to owning more than one can smoke in a day...

Whatever you do, don't chose to smoke an inferior cigar today, when you have a better one in a box to see how it ages!

-Piggy

[mk05]

All cigars are different, Cubans see the biggest transitions in my opinion.

False. Nic sees the biggest transition. It goes from flavorful to 100% flavorless under 5 years of ageing.

[Olga]

False. Nic sees the biggest transition. It goes from flavorful to 100% flavorless under 5 years of ageing.

That's quite a statement.

[TonyAccardo]

I've always thought purging to be a very poor solution, a quick band-aid type fix that actually makes the rest of the cigar even worse than it was before after those first 2 or three draws after the purge. At first, yes, that fresh, beginning of the cigar-taste returns but for me it doesn't last but two, maybe three puffs and then it's worse than it was before I purged it.

Do this......put your face really close to glass/a mirror and blow just as you would purging a cigar. See what forms on the mirror/glass. Wipe your finger over it. What do you have? Pure water vapor. While you purge, yes, you do get some volatiles out and like I said, that fresh, non bitter taste comes back for a few draws. But it quickly goes downhill after that and for me is worse than before I ever purged because now I've blown all that moisture into the roll of tobacco, thus making the cigar very bitter.

Is it a cool trick? Yes, at first. But for me and my experiences, it gets far more credit for being a useful practice than it deserves. I even made a fitting on a blow dryer piece that went over the mouthpiece of the cigar and would turn it on high, tried it on low, but even then, with minimal humidity being blown back into the cigar, I still got the same result. The cigar would only freshen it's taste up for maybe 3-4 draws. So it's obvious to me that it's not just the moisture being blown back into the cigar that made it worse but other things/chemicals being blown up towards the ash end. And the more you purge, the more often you have to do it to keep the cigar smoke able.

[mash]

False. Nic sees the biggest transition. It goes from flavorful to 100% flavorless under 5 years of ageing.

Broad, sweeping statement which is not at all my experience.

[Fugu]

I've always thought purging to be a very poor solution, a quick band-aid type fix that actually makes the rest of the cigar even worse than it was before after those first 2 or three draws after the purge. At first, yes, that fresh, beginning of the cigar-taste returns but for me it doesn't last but two, maybe three puffs and then it's worse than it was before I purged it.

Do this......put your face really close to glass/a mirror and blow just as you would purging a cigar. See what forms on the mirror/glass. Wipe your finger over it. What do you have? Pure water vapor. While you purge, yes, you do get some volatiles out and like I said, that fresh, non bitter taste comes back for a few draws. But it quickly goes downhill after that and for me is worse than before I ever purged because now I've blown all that moisture into the roll of tobacco, thus making the cigar very bitter.

^This!

The idea of "purging" is one of the biggest misconceptions in cigar smoking of the last couple of years.

[TonyAccardo]

Broad, sweeping statement which is not at all my experience.

Edited then.

[PigFish]

... one thing that I have noticed! The accused (my term) has attacked no one in this thread!

Just a little food for thought.

Folks, some of us speak (type) our minds with certainty regardless of the fact that we are discussing opinion. We probably should not do it as much, I know I am one of the biggest offenders.

Lets say it is a call to challenge, but not a challenge to arm!

MHO...

-Piggy

[TonyAccardo]

It seems like the more you purge the more you have to purge. But yes it does improve the flavor.

[Fugu]

Neither a misconception, nor the last couple years....0 for 2 I've been doing it with excellent results for almost 20 years, and have two friends who've been doing it for about twice as long. Additionally, every person I've shown has noticed a marked improvement in the taste of the cigar...the most common response being "cleaner, more like it tasted at the beginning". None of us bother with the burning torch show at the end of the cigar, but I have yet to find a cigar that didn't improve when purged. I find it particularly essential if there is the potential for the cigar to need a relight...as in setting it down to go inside and grab something. Larger RG cigars seem to benefit more than narrow ones.

For folks that enjoy the way a cigar evolves without purging, and relish the increased strength (for me, often bitterness) during, say, the last 1/3...they may choose not to purge. It's one of the many choices we have as cigar smokers. But it does, indeed, have a demonstrable and noticeable effect on the taste of the cigar.

To the poster who feels that the improvement is temporary, I agree. Just not to the short tine period he experiences. A solution for that was developed decades ago...purge again

Remains a misconception - but each to their own of course.

If one feels the "urge to purge" there is something basically wrong in the first place - cigar not ready to be smoked, poor aging, wrong moisture/storage conditions, inadequate smoking technique for the particular cigar etc.

In my view purging is no measure for instant improvement of a basically poor smoke.

[PapaDisco]

All good comments and I agree with Hutch in particular. And a single purge in the first part of the last third will not completely ventilate what's left of your stogie; there's just a lot of volatiles that have built up there and while we can improve the situation for a bit, we can't make it clean as the start of the smoke. That's why you might end up purging the remainder of the cigar two or three more times to get it down to the nub in a comfortable and flavorful manner, at least that's how I think about it.

Does the need to purge indicate something's 'wrong?' I suppose. To me it's usually a cigar that's still short of its prime age. No big deal, and I wouldn't know this if I didn't smoke it. However it could also be an indication of smoking too fast and overheating, or too wet or too dry a cigar. I don't concur with Tony's view that a purge ruins the rest of the cigar. As I mentioned in my first post above, I sometimes use the lit purge to gauge oils in a cigar, and so just for curiosity I've done lit purges at the very beginning of Churchills and other longer smokes, just to see how the level of volatiles changes over the length of the cigar. I've never experience this early purge screwing up the rest of the smoke. But then maybe I've been drinking too much to notice!

For Clint: the purge is just that, blowing into the cigar. It will feel somewhat like blowing up a balloon (but less force). If you do the little torch/light show at the end it's a fun party trick, but not necessary for the efficacy of the purge itself. The lit purge does happen to even out burns though, not sure why that is.

[jwr0201]

Interesting that aging is very different with CC's and NC's. Seems that CC's regularly need / are recommended to have years of aging to reach potential. NC's on the other hand, only benefit in a limited manner with aging. Sure, it is good to give a bit of time to allow NC's some time to mellow. A good example of this is AJ Fernandez New World. ROTT or from a new box, these are rather harsh. Give them about 3-6 months rest in the humidor and they are completely different and fantastic cigars. With too much aging time, NC's can become bland and tasteless. Not all are like that, but enough that aging can and will result in inferior cigars with some brands. After trying different ages on most of my cigars, I prefer NC's from 6 months to a year aged and no more.

[planetary]

After trying different ages on most of my cigars, I prefer NC's from 6 months to a year aged and no more.

Apparently, aging 5-10 years works well for Opuses, certain other Fuentes, and some Davidoffs. Such are the reports I've seen. Got a couple boxes from my earlier days in cigars, which I've not touched for a year.

[Colt45]

My personal experience...

I can think of two boxes of cigars which changed in a positive manner given time or aging. An '06 box of Montecristo No.4. Early samples would start out nice, and turn unsmokeable before mid-point. After a few years, the rest were great. An '05 box of Upmann Magnum 46 - cigars sampled in the first three years were mediocre / bland. After that, some of my faves.

I can't say with authority that the early samples needed time, or were simply poor examples while the rest of the cigars were already great. Or not.

Otherwise, good boxes have been good pretty much from the get-go, and poor boxes stayed that way. Cigars can surely change, but over time, I've learned that while I can try to apply experience, I cannot truly determine what might happen to a cigar over time, and I really no longer try.

With wine......

If you have a traditionally made Barolo from a good vintage and great producer, I think it more reliable to determine when it would develop tertiary charachteristics, etc.

[luv2fly]

My "aging" happens due to the fact I do not smoke that many cigars in a year. When I do, I enjoy the hell out of them. That said, I have smoked some very well aged cigars and been blown away.

Given my current smoking habits, I will be most pleasantly surprised down the road.....I hope

[PigFish]

My personal experience...

I can think of two boxes of cigars which changed in a positive manner given time or aging. An '06 box of Montecristo No.4. Early samples would start out nice, and turn unsmokeable before mid-point. After a few years, the rest were great. An '05 box of Upmann Magnum 46 - cigars sampled in the first three years were mediocre / bland. After that, some of my faves.

I can't say with authority that the early samples needed time, or were simply poor examples while the rest of the cigars were already great. Or not.

Otherwise, good boxes have been good pretty much from the get-go, and poor boxes stayed that way. Cigars can surely change, but over time, I've learned that while I can try to apply experience, I cannot truly determine what might happen to a cigar over time, and I really no longer try.

With wine......

If you have a traditionally made Barolo from a good vintage and great producer, I think it more reliable to determine when it would develop tertiary charachteristics, etc.

Great post Ross! -R

[Fugu]

Otherwise, good boxes have been good pretty much from the get-go, and poor boxes stayed that way. Cigars can surely change,

With wine......

If you have a traditionally made Barolo from a good vintage and great producer, I think it more reliable to determine when it would develop tertiary charachteristics, etc.

Colt, agreed - absolutely!

But aging is not about turning a poor cigar into a good one! And I think that's even not what you are actually expecting, is it? As you say it yourself - it's about change.

And - as for the wine example - there is likewise no turning a poor wine into a good one by aging. You need a good product possessing all the necessary "genes" to start with.

Predicting long-term development - agreed again - yes, that's the tricky thing, in wine as well as in cigars.

Paul

[PapaDisco]

Colt, agreed - absolutely!

But aging is not about turning a poor cigar into a good one! And I think that's even not what you are actually expecting, is it? As you say it yourself - it's about change.

And - as for the wine example - there is likewise no turning a poor wine into a good one by aging. You need a good product possessing all the necessary "genes" to start with.

Predicting long-term development - agreed again - yes, that's the tricky thing, in wine as well as in cigars.

Paul

Agreed and this is one of the reason's Rob's hand picked selections are such a great service. If you're going to invest years in this process, it pays to start with a particularly great cigar.

[jimsta10]

Aging for me is trial and error and try not to be too curious when letting them rest. Sick periods usually last for 12 months then your patience will be rewarded after that.

There are a few good youtube clips on aging might be worth watching.