Cigar Flipping Discussion (moved from La Escepcion Thread)

[NSXCIGAR]

I think the heart of the matter and what may have gotten lost in the shuffle in this thread is the difference between transactions between known parties and unknown parties. I totally agree that it would be poor form to say the least for anyone in the community or a true BOTL to try and maximize their profit via flipping new releases like this. There should be some charity implicit in your participation in the "club" so to speak. Is it immoral? No. But I won't be inviting you to Christmas dinner and you may wind up a pariah. But when you're dealing with a stranger and it's purely business, all bets are basically off.

Now, as long as price and terms are disclosed beforehand, even if you are a BOTL, I'll just pass on the offer if it's higher than I think it should be, as will many, and the potential flipper will be discouraged from even buying them up in the first place and wasting his time running them down in Italy, knowing he'll have to lower his price before anyone even becomes interested.

So, to sum up, flipping itself--not immoral. Flipping to maximize profit--not immoral. Maximizing profit when you're considered part of a community that is expected to help others--not immoral but pretty ******-baggy. That would be like a church group not helping one of its members when they're sick. Within the existing social framework, it's frowned upon.

[HarveyBoulevard]

All been said on page one...

I started reading on page 4 of 7. I assumed I could just get the gist of things that way...

[Colt45]

Buy low, sell high! Manipulate the cigar market by buying / selling every time someone farts in Cuba!

[earthson]

I'm not sure when your hypothetical scenario would ever arise. If I were to buy cigars retail for the intention of flipping them and the current secondary market was below retail then I guess I would have to be a real idiot.

I think the issue is people who buy up a new or HTF release and then run off to offer at a ridiculous price, thereby attempting to influence secondary pricing. Hell, I've seen several members here go do it on OLH with regular releases. You ever see someone put an extra premium on Rob's PSP pricing? I have!

The issue I have is when I am looking for a HTF or new release that I want to buy to smoke and you've got people who bought them merely to tack on $100-200 per box as a "finder's fee."

I have a real job, so maybe I just have a hard time wrapping my brain around the nickel-and-diming-on-the-internet behavior.

[shlomo]

A premium on a premium! Ha!

Im happy to see Im not the only whinger here, nor the only wet blanket....LOL

[riazp]

I'm not gonna Lie, When i got my hands on the Infantes in Cuba in 2013, I thought to myself that I could unload them at a premium, and it would cover the costs of my trip and then some...But I didnt because hell I enjoy the cigar.

If by some miracle i stumble upon some exelencias, the business man in me will again think, i could easily sell these for three times what I payed, I probably would have no trouble finding buyers either. But the cigar guy in me will be a greedy prick and want to keep them and smoke them over time.

In the end the cigar guy in me trumps the business guy in me.

[LGC]

I have a real job, so maybe I just have a hard time wrapping my brain around the nickel-and-diming-on-the-internet behavior.

I have noticed this as being prevalent amongst some younger guys that aren't in the position to realistically be smoking 20-50 dollar cigars. You also see some guys constantly splitting new boxes to fund their own purchases. When I was younger, I purchased a box of TPCs or PCs every month or two. More expensive purchases were only done in singles, or local splits (at cost)... in order not to live beyond my means. I guess I'm just too lazy for flipping, or a poor business man.

[NSXCIGAR]

I think the issue is people who buy up a new or HTF release and then run off to offer at a ridiculous price, thereby attempting to influence secondary pricing. Hell, I've seen several members here go do it on OLH with regular releases. You ever see someone put an extra premium on Rob's PSP pricing? I have!

The issue I have is when I am looking for a HTF or new release that I want to buy to smoke and you've got people who bought them merely to tack on $100-200 per box as a "finder's fee."

I have a real job, so maybe I just have a hard time wrapping my brain around the nickel-and-diming-on-the-internet behavior.

I guess I'm having a hard time fathoming who would pay a premium for regular production PSPs with no age. I don't doubt someone would foolishly try and peddle them for more, but who on earth would buy them?

And it's apparently not nickel-and-diming because it's enough of a premium to cause a stir among us. 50-100% premiums aren't exactly nickel-and-diming, and it can represent a lot of money for the enterprising flipper.

It all goes back to pricing. If one or a small few individuals continually buy up large amounts of stock from a retailer than the retailer should recognize their prices are too low. They may feel they're doing their customers a favor but they're really not if prices are low enough to create a profit opportunity for flippers.

[CanuckSARTech]

My vote for a "most succinct ban" for @Orion Yes. That was well put. The notion that if seller and buyer are happy who are we to judge? I know well of the example Aaron is bringing up. There was a bit of a premium on those. I went a bit wild on those 2011 La Escepcions myself. In all, I think about 17 boxes passed through my hands. Many of which I kept and the others relayed to other interested parties. FTR, I didn't take a cut. It was a group buy, not a "flip". Were I to sell a box now, you bet there'd be a premium.

And WHO'S idea was it????

I'm just pissed I was away and missed out on the jar aspect!!!!

[Orion21]

I go away and see The Big Short over the weekend and then come back to this discussion!!! I'm starting a new product called a CCDO . . . anyone want in

BTW, The Big Short was the best movie I have seen all year. Excellent in every way.

[helix]

23 days ago I assumed it was simply a case of take it or leave it. LOL

[ayepatz]

I was in a certain shop in Stuttgart today and they had 3 (yes, THREE) boxes of RA 8-9-8s!

Come ON, flippers! What's going on, ffs!?!

[gojira]

I was in a certain shop in Stuttgart today and they had 3 (yes, THREE) boxes of RA 8-9-8s!

Come ON, flippers! What's going on, ffs!?!

I would love to get my hands on half a box to smoke 'em.......

[Lotusguy]

I was in a certain shop in Stuttgart today and they had 3 (yes, THREE) boxes of RA 8-9-8s!

Come ON, flippers! What's going on, ffs!?!

Same three I fondled on Thursday then

I have enough, though, and space in my carry on was short.

[LLC]

I was in a certain shop in Stuttgart today and they had 3 (yes, THREE) boxes of RA 8-9-8s!

Come ON, flippers! What's going on, ffs!?!

Wish I was there to buy one or two boxes.

[ayepatz]

Same three I fondled on Thursday then

I have enough, though, and space in my carry on was short.

Me too, man.

[RickHendeson]

Came across this thread and to me it really underscores the eternal tension you find in all kinds of interest forums -- "community" vs. "marketplace." The divergence is readily evident in the contrasting viewpoints in this thread.

Those who come here (and cigar forums in general) as "marketplace" fully expect that everyone will be operating at arms-length and each in his own self-interest. They not only expect that, they encourage it, whether they feel it best suits their profit motives, sense of fair play, or otherwise.

Those who come for "community" are in the forums for fellowship, and as such, naked self-interest is anathema to their experience.

The "community" people wouldn't dream of charging (or "overcharging") their thirsty neighbor for a glass of water.

The "marketplace" people cede ownership only on terms they feel advantageous and believe no one has the right to question their own sovereign motives.

It's probably a dynamic that can never be resolved, and while some forums try to be one or the other, you can always see the other side trying to make inroads at any given time.

[shlomo]

Good post. Well written.

[Fugu]

Good post. Well written.

Agreed. Good synopsis to a long thread!

Although I think "charging (or "overcharging") their thirsty neighbor for a glass of water" is bending an analogy massively...

...ok, let's not start it again...

[Colt45]

The "community" people

The "marketplace" people

Personally, I don't think it's always so cut and dried / black and white - there are usually always shades of gray. It's not always easy to walk in another's shoes...

[NSXCIGAR]

Agreed. Good synopsis to a long thread!

Although I think "charging (or "overcharging") their thirsty neighbor for a glass of water" is bending an analogy massively...

...ok, let's not start it again...

I agree, but I think that some people did feel that the water analogy was in play, and I definitely wanted to make it clear that that that's not how I feel at all. When you're part of a community, or a neighbor, you should probably avoid trying stick it to your comrades if you want to continue to be a part of that community.

I think there is some charity implied by being a BOTL. But it is charity. Being un-charitable isn't immoral, it just makes you kind of a ****, and you are likely to get called out for it.

Not part of a community, do whatever you want. Business is business.

[Strada]

Nicely written and really on point Rick!

There is an behavioral economist named Dan Ariely that touches on this subject in one of his book. He calls it social and market norms. They both can be used in all settings but they are not appropriate in all of them. When the wrong set of norms is used, they collide. The example he gives is if you go to your mother for thanksgiving dinner and after an amazing meal you get up and say "well mom that amazing, how much do I owe you?" Silence...."300$ should be enough no?...you know what, lets make that 400$" In most family, the will not end well....Using market norms in a social norms setting. Collision!!