Cigar Flipping Discussion (moved from La Escepcion Thread)

[Fugu]

Inclined to fully agree with all that, Rob!

But just for me to get this clear - per definition, therefore, a "flipper" is a person who flips new releases, which are still readily available at retail, or have been until very recently? Not a person who resells older/aged, vintage and/or even discontinued stuff?

[El Presidente]

But just for me to get this clear - per definition, therefore, a "flipper" is a person who flips new releases, which are still readily available at retail, or have been until very recently? Not a person who resells older/aged, vintage and/or even discontinued stuff?

That is certainly what I meant. Readily available (or recently so) but not necessarily readily accessible.

[CanuckSARTech]

our US brethren should not ***** about paying a little premium for the odd box of RE's or LE's

when their getting quality cigars at a steal !!

your welcome to come to Aust and pay Thrice for regular production!

Relax please. He wasn't bitching.

He was making reference to a reply post that I did, in response to Gino's and a few others, about submitting taxes once it becomes a second income for a said flipper. He was just pointing out the moot point of paying taxes on flipping cigars in the U.S.

I think something might have been lost in the context there with the move from one thread into two separate ones.

[NSXCIGAR]

I don't think anyone's complaining about paying a little more for this "service" but I agree with Rob, those being local who hook us up with little to no premium are to be applauded and thanked. They are going above and beyond.

And while these category A "professional flippers" certainly may be out to make high profits all I can say is that it's in bad taste, not that they're evil, unethical, immoral or any other defamatory descriptor. Italy throwing people in jail for exporting tobacco is far more immoral than anything a flipper is doing...my 2 cents.

[mk05]

Flippers will also buy larger quantities to obtain discounts, additionally increasing profits. It also provides more leverage for obtaining rare and limited cigars offered only to select clients. Posting pics of boxes will draw inquiries from buyers. Some sellers will approach those who show interest in certain items in auctions or posts. It's basically a way to draw large profit margins and avoid taxes. This is why many folks shy away from public boards after some time. I prefer to buy for smoking and sharing. The cigar world will always consist of smokers, chasers, flippers, and collectors...

You live, you learn, then you get Luvs.

[ayepatz]

If you're buying to smoke, how much are you willing to pay to try that "special" cigar?

Figure that out, then either go hunting until you find them at that price point, or save your energy and spend your budget on buying more of other decent cigars instead.

If you're buying with the intention of NOT smoking those rare boxes, then it seems a bit churlish to criticise the flippers. Supply and demand and all that.

Dare I say it? It's just a cigar. (dives for cover behind the sofa)

[sactochris]

Such a first world problem.

[Lotusguy]

Relax please. He wasn't bitching.

He was making reference to a reply post that I did, in response to Gino's and a few others, about submitting taxes once it becomes a second income for a said flipper. He was just pointing out the moot point of paying taxes on flipping cigars in the U.S.

I think something might have been lost in the context there with the move from one thread into two separate ones.

Thanks - that's exactly what I meant.

Posting pics of stacks of HTF boxes while at the same time selling them is simply advertising, if you ask me.

[suggs]

Bourgeois swine!

[jwr0201]

Good thing that our hosts don't scalp the Sh*t out of the hard to finds that they sell here at good, fair prices to anyone that wants them. Seems our hosts are doing it wrong. They could be making a killing off of us. Instead, they show the poor judgement to make a decent living and actually care about the people they sell to by way of passing along some affordable deals, good quality and providing this forum. Personally, I find buying simply to flip and gouging others with high prices a pretty crappy thing to do. That DOES ensure that the everyday schlub won't get to sample the cream. IMNSHO, it says a lot about a person's ethics and consideration towards others. But then, I'm just a wet blanket!

[El Presidente]

But then, I'm sure I'm a wet blanket!

The "Wet Blanket" brigade takes many forms.....as many as "The Flipper".

Now one may not like a "Flipper" ....but in the end he/she at least brings something to the table...which one can reject.

The worst of the "Wet Blankets" bring nothing unless you consider "moaning and whining" a commodity. When pressed they invariably portray a sense of entitlement and frustration, all giftwrapped with just a touch of self appointed moral and intellectual superiority.

Zombies are harder to kill off

[NSXCIGAR]

Good thing that our hosts don't scalp the Sh*t out of the hard to finds that they sell here at good, fair prices to anyone that wants them. Seems our hosts are doing it wrong. They could be making a killing off of us. Instead, they show the poor judgement to make a decent living and actually care about the people they sell to by way of passing along some affordable deals, good quality and providing this forum. Personally, I find buying simply to flip and gouging others with high prices a pretty crappy thing to do. That DOES ensure that the everyday schlub won't get to sample the cream. IMNSHO, it says a lot about a person's ethics and consideration towards others. But then, I'm just a wet blanket!

It's ultimately competition that keeps prices for all goods low. Competition in service, price and product. FOH gets high marks in all three relative to other vendors, and hence why we patronize them.

As I've posited repeatedly, would it be preferable to have none of these flippers selling at high prices and nobody outside of Italy being able to acquire these at any price? You can't have both unless you're hoping for charity. And if you are, good luck with that. The more flippers, the lower the prices. If you're the only game in town, price will be high, creating a profit opportunity for other flippers to come in and undercut them. This is all basic economics.

I'm just having a hard time criticizing anyone's ethics for offering any product for a price the market will bear, whatever the price may be.

[Jeremy Festa]

I said it before, in the "cigars as investments" thread, a while back.

Just because cigars come out of Cuba, it does not mean they are inherently socialist in nature also.

Good luck to everybody!

[Lotusguy]

NCs get flipped just as much as CCs, if not more, BTW.

[bman75]

I feel like the chase for hard-to-find releases benefits the average smoker. Even the wealthy have cigar budgets. The more dollars that get thrown at these releases, the fewer dollars competing for the cigars that the other 90% of us smoke (regardless of whether HSA or a flipper is picking up the high margins).

There will always be a special high demand for the "rare" or "best." If the money-is-no-object crowd isn't chasing these releases or buying HSA collector humidors, what would they then turn their attention to? Would regular production Cohibas be filpped and bid up through the roof?

[LordAnubis]

Very interesting discussion.

Personally i am a free will type of guy. A sale is someone accepting money at a value a buyer is willing to pay for it. If i'm not willing to pay then i wont! I'm an adult i can make my own decisions. For us cigar friends and enthusiasts i would never on sell something at a marked up price. I would sell with whatever it costs me for postage and taxes and what not, sure, but no more than that. The situation i will talk about below, i have never been in that situation and i am not sure what i would do to be honest.

I have a question about the morality of marking up cigars. People are saying in here the biggest problem they have with marking up is it's not "in the the spirit" of a BOTL. I can understand that. My question to you guys though is this, are you happy if a BOTL sells cigars at a mark up to non "Brothers"?

What i mean is, does morality only apply to friends/people who share the same interest? Would people be happy if i sold a box at a marked up price to some rich guy who wasn't a cigar enthusiast like we are, and was just a rich snob who wanted a cigar for the bling? Or better yet, if i sold a box at a marked up price to a businessman who then will go on to sell it at an auction? Would it sit fine with you guys if that was the case?

I'm curious to find out the psychology behind our moral values

[NSXCIGAR]

Very interesting discussion.

Personally i am a free will type of guy. A sale is someone accepting money at a value a buyer is willing to pay for it. If i'm not willing to pay then i wont! I'm an adult i can make my own decisions. For us cigar friends and enthusiasts i would never on sell something at a marked up price. I would sell with whatever it costs me for postage and taxes and what not, sure, but no more than that. The situation i will talk about below, i have never been in that situation and i am not sure what i would do to be honest.

I have a question about the morality of marking up cigars. People are saying in here the biggest problem they have with marking up is it's not "in the the spirit" of a BOTL. I can understand that. My question to you guys though is this, are you happy if a BOTL sells cigars at a mark up to non "Brothers"?

What i mean is, does morality only apply to friends/people who share the same interest? Would people be happy if i sold a box at a marked up price to some rich guy who wasn't a cigar enthusiast like we are, and was just a rich snob who wanted a cigar for the bling? Or better yet, if i sold a box at a marked up price to a businessman who then will go on to sell it at an auction? Would it sit fine with you guys if that was the case?

I'm curious to find out the psychology behind our moral values

If someone I personally knew and/or a real BOTL was trying to maximize his profit with me or any of us I would be miffed. I expect to get good deals from those I know in all areas of life, and I do the same for them. It's charity, but both ways and appreciated. And I'm not even asking for a steep discount--just a better price than for the average Joe. But I think any real BOTL, including myself, would do that so it wouldn't even be an issue.

That has less to do with business and more to do with community consideration. But from a dude I don't know, I could care less if I got a good deal. Maybe the guy has never smoked a cigar in his life let alone is a BOTL. At that point, I'm just lucky to have the opportunity to buy these cigars at all, at any price.

[LordAnubis]

That's a buyers perspective. Whats your perspective if you were the seller?

[NSXCIGAR]

That's a buyers perspective. Whats your perspective if you were the seller?

As a BOTL, I'd sell it to another BOTL for less than maximum. How much less I couldn't say but I'd do my best. It's unlikely I'd be doing anything like this if I wasn't selling to another BOTL but putting myself in a non-BOTL flipper's place, I say sell it for as much you can.

[LordAnubis]

As a BOTL, I'd sell it to another BOTL for less than maximum. How much less I couldn't say but I'd do my best. It's unlikely I'd be doing anything like this if I wasn't selling to another BOTL but putting myself in a non-BOTL flipper's place, I say sell it for as much you can.

I think i'd be the same. To a cigar smoker i know like cigars for what they are, i'll always sell at cost. To someone who i knew wanted them for bling factor or to on sell... price gouge them.

[Colt45]

"flipper died a natural death, he caught a nasty virus"...

flip houses

flip wine

flip stocks

flip cigars

[wabashcr]

NCs get flipped just as much as CCs, if not more, BTW.

Definitely. When I think of flippers, I'm thinking more of rare/HTF Fuentes, Tat limited releases, etc. I'm talking about situations where the flippers step in either through early or other special access and buy up everything, only to turn around and sell them at >100% markups. That's what I find to be immoral. Those boxes would all sell out just fine on their own. There's no argument to be made that these flippers are providing any kind of service. They're just using their access to gouge.

I've said it many times, but I'll repeat, my comments about flipping aren't necessarily specific to the Italian RE from the original thread. I do understand the difficulties in getting those cigars out of Italy, and I understand there is an associated cost that the consumer should bear. I don't expect anyone with contacts in Italy to provide any charitable services to those who do not have access. However, I would still say that just because someone essentially has a monopoly, and the economic license to charge whatever they want, doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. Just as it's anyone's right to sell their property for whatever they want, anyone else is free to draw conclusions about that person's motivations and character based on that asking price.

[Fugu]

Definitely. When I think of flippers, I'm thinking more of rare/HTF Fuentes, Tat limited releases, etc. I'm talking about situations where the flippers step in either through early or other special access and buy up everything, only to turn around and sell them at >100% markups. That's what I find to be immoral. Those boxes would all sell out just fine on their own. There's no argument to be made that these flippers are providing any kind of service. They're just using their access to gouge.

I see what you are saying and agree that's at least highly questionable.

The type you are describing here, however, rather appears to be professional – who else would scoop a complete release from the primary market? I'd guess that would not apply to a single one of the members here. At least hardly possible in a Cuban special ed. with the average 2 to 5,000 boxes. Even in lower numbered special humidors, it would be quite an investment. I actually never happened not to be able to get my hands on a desired Cuban release from retail, irrespective of how scarce it was. Yes, sometimes you’ll have to work for it and announce early interest.

However, all that being said, there is no one else to be blamed for that kind of flipping habit than the distributors and retailers of said editions themselves, they have it in their hands:

It is certainly not in the interest of retailers allocating a disproportionately large share of the value creation chain to the odd flipper. In the end, such just drives overall prices, minimizes retailer’s profit and will eventually turn off people from the product. A very easy and really simple measure to avoid that – as is quite sensibly done in my country by many retailers – is occasionally limiting the allocation of scarce editions to only one or two boxes per client.

That way, glutton flippers are easily famished.

[Colt45]

What i mean is, does morality only apply to friends/people who share the same interest? Would people be happy if i sold a box at a marked up price to some rich guy who wasn't a cigar enthusiast like we are, and was just a rich snob who wanted a cigar for the bling? Or better yet, if i sold a box at a marked up price to a businessman who then will go on to sell it at an auction? Would it sit fine with you guys if that was the case?

I'm curious to find out the psychology behind our moral values

The buyers interest reflects on him / her. How we treat people reflects on us.

[squizz]

I can see why people don't like it. But at the same time, the owner of whatever it is can do what they want with it.

The bigger problem to me, there is always someone out there willing to pay whatever it takes to get what they want, regardless of value.