Havana Club trademark dispute over: Winner? Cuba!

[Puros Y Vino]

Saw this in my FB feed.

Cuba wins Havana Club trademark dispute.

Time to grab some "Havanista" bottles as collectibles?

[SCgarman]

Bacardi just sounds like the big greedy bully on the block. They make tons of $$$ and are concerned with the Havana Club brand? Jeez, first world problems!

[Ken Gargett]

Bacardi just sounds like the big greedy bully on the block. They make tons of $$$ and are concerned with the Havana Club brand? Jeez, first world problems!

seriously? without expressing bias towards either, i would say that havana club are a major competitor for bacardi. it would be irresponsible for the management of bacardi not to do what they can (leave aside whether they have any justification and also the history of all this, which does little credit to anyone).

as the author says, "The fight is about future market share in the world’s largest rum market".

of course, they are fighting it.

no real argument with your bully comments but don't think havana club are some little blokes on the corner. they are part owned/backed by pernod ricard who are more than three times the size of bacardi, depending how one measures these things.

i would also suggest that this is nowhere near over. bacardi will appeal - they have indicated that - and will continue to do so until every avenue is exhausted. this fight will outlast most of us!

[oliverdst]

Santiago de Cuba here

[JohnS]

You've got to love the law sometimes, especially copyright law. Bacardi is an instantly recognisable brand the world over, and they are genuinely concerned over the brand/term "Havana Club"? Seriously? Chalk me up as a fellow cynic who sees this as a business exercise by Bacardi to slowly eliminate some worthy competition to their brand.

[shlomo]

seriously? without expressing bias towards either, i would say that havana club are a major competitor for bacardi. it would be irresponsible for the management of bacardi not to do what they can (leave aside whether they have any justification and also the history of all this, which does little credit to anyone).

as the author says, "The fight is about future market share in the world’s largest rum market[/size]".

of course, they are fighting it.

no real argument with your bully comments but don't think havana club are some little blokes on the corner. they are part owned/backed by pernod ricard who are more than three times the size of bacardi, depending how one measures these things.

i would also suggest that this is nowhere near over. bacardi will appeal - they have indicated that - and will continue to do so until every avenue is exhausted. this fight will outlast most of us!

100%. The Bacardi family was almost destroyed by Castro and la revolucion.....while I am generally not a fan of their product, I root for them vs. Cuban govt every single time....

[Ken Gargett]

You've got to love the law sometimes, especially copyright law. Bacardi is an instantly recognisable brand the world over, and they are genuinely concerned over the brand/term "Havana Club"? Seriously? Chalk me up as a fellow cynic who sees this as a business exercise by Pernod Ricard to slowly eliminate some worthy competition to their brand.

john, i'm not looking to take sides or make comments about the quality of different rums but i certainly don't see this as a cynical exercise by PR. they have made a serious investment in a brand and one could argue that it is merely defending itself from attempts by a competitor to pinch their name. of course, far from so simplistic.

the whole thing is a mess.

bacardi's actions have, on occasion, been truly appalling (the nicest way one can say this sort of thing) and there have even been serious allegations they were involved with/backing assassination attempts on castro. whatever way one falls, a corporation being involved in those things is murky at the least. there are various books on all this - fascinating reading but that said, always a bit difficult to see how much of the position the authors take is dependent on their long held views.

but you do have actions i would call cynical - bacardi setting up to make rums under the havana club name, which was surely just an attempt to position themselves to prevent the real havana club being able to sell in the american market and a lot of others as well.

this has a very long way to run. and i suspect neither side will emerge covered in glory.

[JohnS]

but you do have actions i would call cynical - bacardi setting up to make rums under the havana club name, which was surely just an attempt to position themselves to prevent the real havana club being able to sell in the american market and a lot of others as well.

this has a very long way to run. and i suspect neither side will emerge covered in glory.

I'm with you there, Ken!

[Fugu]

You've got to love the law sometimes, especially copyright law. Bacardi is an instantly recognisable brand the world over, and they are genuinely concerned over the brand/term "Havana Club"? Seriously? Chalk me up as a fellow cynic who sees this as a business exercise by Pernod Ricard to slowly eliminate some worthy competition to their brand.

As Ken said, it's a long and complicated story. But a simple answer to that is - Bacardi is selling their own "Havana Club" brand (Puerto Rican) in the US market.

[Ken Gargett]

As Ken said, it's a long and complicated story. But a simple answer to that is - Bacardi is selling their own "Havana Club" brand (Puerto Rican) in the US market.

precisely. but that is the problem and the reason this will be making lawyers rich for many years.

just because the y "are", doesn't necessary mean that they "can", at least legally. but if they win, when the embargo comes down, then the real havana club will not be sold in the states, at least under that name.

[Fugu]

precisely. but that is the problem and the reason this will be making lawyers rich for many years.

just because the y "are", doesn't necessary mean that they "can", at least legally. but if they win, when the embargo comes down, then the real havana club will not be sold in the states, at least under that name.

Right Ken, that's the crux. Don't want to start a debate on the legal issue, but the core question seems to be: Bacardi bought the brand from the Arechabala family (long) AFTER they had been expropriated and fled the island. So - who had been the legal brand holder/owner after the revolution - the Cuban state or still the orig. owner family (same as with the cigar brands)? This is a state affair, extending much beyond the single Bacardi - Pernod Ricard case. As it will quite basically concern the legal approval of the zeisure of private property during the revolution (cf. Helms-Burton etc.). Difficult, and as you say, this will probably not be ended so soon...

[Ken Gargett]

Right Ken, that's the crux. Don't want to start a debate on the legal issue, but the core question seems to be: Bacardi bought the brand from the Arechabala family (long) AFTER they had been expropriated and fled the island. So - who had been the legal brand holder/owner after the revolution - the Cuban state or still the orig. owner family (same as with the cigar brands)? This is a state affair, extending much beyond the single Bacardi - Pernod Ricard case. As it will quite basically concern the legal approval of the zeisure of private property during the revolution (cf. Helms-Burton etc.). Difficult, and as you say, this will probably not be ended so soon...

yep. the decision referred to in the article was made by the admin office so any number of legal layers to get through. in the end, would not be hard to see this going right to the supreme court. years away.

[SCgarman]

Well, you know one thing once Cuban rum hits the shores of the US and is readily available in bars and restaurants everyone will want to try it being the "forbidden fruit" just like CC's.

[CanuckSARTech]

Well, you know one thing once Cuban rum hits the shores of the US and is readily available in bars and restaurants everyone will want to try it being the "forbidden fruit" just like CC's.

And up goes the price for it even more at the liquor stores in Canada.

[CaptainQuintero]

So if you buy Havana Club anywhere in the world apart from the US you are getting the real Cuban drink, right?

I seem to remember all bottles that I've seen have the Cuban export stamp similar to cigar boxes etc

You ony get the NC version if you buy HC in the US?

[SCgarman]

So if you buy Havana Club anywhere in the world apart from the US you are getting the real Cuban drink, right?

I seem to remember all bottles that I've seen have the Cuban export stamp similar to cigar boxes etc

You ony get the NC version if you buy HC in the US?

I have never seen Bacardi's version of Havana Club in the U.S. here. It is made in Puerto Rico just like the Bacardi brand, so what is the incentive? IMO none.

[Fugu]

So if you buy Havana Club anywhere in the world apart from the US you are getting the real Cuban drink, right?

I seem to remember all bottles that I've seen have the Cuban export stamp similar to cigar boxes etc

You ony get the NC version if you buy HC in the US?

Yes.

I have never seen Bacardi's version of Havana Club in the U.S. here. It is made in Puerto Rico just like the Bacardi brand, so what is the incentive? IMO none.

As I understand it, they need to sell the product to occupy the market and be able to apply for the trademark protection. At the moment this seems to be the main purpose, therefore prob. not a huge production. Preparing for the "future", like PR applied for "Havanista", just in case...

[Ken Gargett]

Yes.

As I understand it, they need to sell the product to occupy the market and be able to apply for the trademark protection. At the moment this seems to be the main purpose, therefore prob. not a huge production. Preparing for the "future", like PR applied for "Havanista", just in case...

without wishing to give legal advice in a foreign jurisdiction, i think this is spot on.

[Ken Gargett]

from a drinks trade site.

Bacardi seething after Havana Club ruling

18th January, 2016 by Neal Baker

The US government has been accused by Bacardi of turning its back on its own laws following a ruling that granted the Havana Club trademark to Pernod Ricard.

Bacardi has been selling Havana Club in the US since 1994, while the brand has been sold elsewhere by Pernod Ricard. Last week’s ruling sees the US rights granted to Pernod (Photo: Wiki)

In a damning statement, Bacardi said that the decision by the US authorities to give Pernod Ricard the right to sell Cuban-made Havana Club rum in the States amounted to “confiscation without compensation”.

Sources claim that the ruling could cost Bacardi around 4,000,000 case sales per year.

In 1994 Bacardi purchased the rights to sell Havana Club in the US from the brand’s founding family, who had fled Cuba in the 1960s after the brand was seized by their country’s government.

Since then Bacardi has been selling rum made in Puerto Rico under the Havana Club name in the US due to the long-standing embargo on Cuban goods.

Meanwhile, Havana Club rum produced in Cuba has been sold in other markets by a joint venture between Pernod Ricard and the Cuban government named Cubaexport.

However, following a thaw in relations between the US and Cuba, last week’s ruling by the US Foreign Assets Control Office has given the rights to sell the brand in the States to the Pernod/Cuban partnership.

“We are committed to defending the fundamental rights against confiscations without compensation,” Bacardi said.

“We support both legislation and legal action upholding the principle of protection of trademarks and ensuring trademarks that have been illegally confiscated by the Cuban government without consent of their rightful owners not be recognised by the international community.”

The ruling could lead to a long and fraught legal battle between Bacardi and Pernod Ricard once the US’s trade embargo with Cuba is lifted.

[SCgarman]

So essentially when the trade embargo is ended we will have lawsuit litigation galore concerning not just Cuban cigars and the brand names associated with them but also Cuban rum. It will be a GOOD time to be a lawyer!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[Ken Gargett]

So essentially when the trade embargo is ended we will have lawsuit litigation galore concerning not just Cuban cigars and the brand names associated with them but also Cuban rum. It will be a GOOD time to be a lawyer!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

exactly. but when is it not?

[JohnS]

exactly. but when is it not?

Hmmm...interesting query, Ken. I would admit that history has proven that there aren't too many times when it's not good to be a lawyer, other than when dictators usurp political power forcefully, like Idi Amin or Pol Pot, and then it's a good idea to have a career back-up plan, such as farming.

[Ken Gargett]

Hmmm...interesting query, Ken. I would admit that history has proven that there aren't too many times when it's not good to be a lawyer, other than when dictators usurp political power forcefully, like Idi Amin or Pol Pot, and then it's a good idea to have a career back-up plan, such as farming.

i blame shakespeare.

[Fuzz]

i blame shakespeare.

Why? The quote is often misinterpreted as a criticism of lawyers. **** the Butcher, who spoke the phrase, was a follower of Jack Cade who wanted overthrow the King and put himself in power. The quote was meant as their first opening salvo in disrupting society and the government by killing all the lawyers.

[Ken Gargett]

Why? The quote is often misinterpreted as a criticism of lawyers. **** the Butcher, who spoke the phrase, was a follower of Jack Cade who wanted overthrow the King and put himself in power. The quote was meant as their first opening salvo in disrupting society and the government by killing all the lawyers.

fuzz, no argument with that but the misinterpretation of the quote has become cemented into popular culture and people see it for what they assume it means. sadly, perception has overtaken the original intent. there are any number of similar instances - not just from shakespeare. "money is the root of all evil" is one that springs to mind. the full quote is "the love of money", a very different thing.

all i meant was that shakespeare was instrumental in stirring up distrust of lawyers, whether he meant it or not.