Greece referendum results - Overwhelming 'No' vote to latest IMF Bailout offer

[JohnS]

The latest news is that the Eurozone has given Greece until Thursday to submit a new proposal and a European Summit meeting has subsequently been arranged for this coming Sunday 12th of July.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33437797

[Fuzz]

When the average person is broke and needs money, they head off to the pawn shop and hock their stuff. Time for Greece to do the same!

[DrunkenMonkey]

Remember, Hitler came to power in large part because after WWI the Treaty of Versailles castrated the German State and levied huge reparations upon the German people. The 1953 restructuring was a smart and forward thinking thing to do.

In Greek situation is different from my point of view, but the scary part for me is who has risen to political power in the country because of it's economic issues.

Is it so different? You have a punishing austerity imposed from without, and it's given rise to extremist political parties inside the country. I mean, hopefully it's very different, but can you really say for sure? We don't know how this ends.

[Dara]

Speaking as someone in Ireland the reality is that Greece can't afford to have their bluff called.

It's summer now and Greece should be full of holiday makers but already people are being told because of the closure of banks etc to bring plenty of cash as you may not be able to pay hotel bills etc with credit cards if the banks aren't operating.

Most of the Greek export trade is with other Eurozone countries, if they exit the euro then it's going to become a major hassle for exporters to reprice all their goods into Drachma and they will not doubt come back with a Drachma at a crappy exchange rate compared to what they entered the Euro at so exporters will lose trade as they'll have to reprice their goods at higher prices or sell at less than cost.

Also Greek people's savings (or whatever is left at this stage) will be devalued.

The Greek finance minister met their other eurozone country heads today and had no new plan or anything so there's no new plan yet.

As for the contagion spreading or leaving the way clear for Spain Portugal and Ireland to leave the Euro I don't think so.

Speaking for Ireland, we've met all the demands imposed on us in the bail out by raising personal taxes etc (basically our government rolled out in panic and accepted all terms demanded) so I can't see us leaving. We'll keep meeting interest payments but the actual bailout debt will never be fully repaid in my lifetime anyway due to the sheer size. It's only if we stop complying with terms of the bailout as Greece have done that the actual money becomes due to be paid immediately.

I think the Greek government will have to accept a new bailout, the only other option is financial collapse of the economy there. The key is if the government can get some concession so that they can sell it to the people as a better deal and save face....something will probably be done on this but they won't get a complete or significant debt write down.....the IMF is everyone's money and not just European nations, so there's a lot of stakeholders involved that would have to agree to a write down.

It won't be solved quickly and the longer it goes on the worse it will hurt Greece in the long run I fear so someone has to blink and I think it will have to be the Greeks!

[hoffmr3]

I sit through countless strategy sessions, update calls, news flashes, etc. every day focused on 'will they/won't they' speculation, but what always seems to be missing from these debates is a recognition of how any of these negotiations play out over the next 10, 20, or even 40 years. Even under the most optimistic scenarios, the math simply does not work for anyone involved...

http://blogs.wsj.com/briefly/2015/07/03/greeces-debt-the-numbers/

If a deal is ultimately negotiated, it will involve continued austerity in Greece and a commitment by the ECB to aggressively pursue quantitative easing at a much greater pace than is happening today. This will work fine until asset prices reach an unsustainable level and throw the entire EU into recession. How many Greeks will remain in Greece during the interim to endure the continued austerity measures? At some point, the whole thing breaks down and becomes everybody's problem.

The unfortunate reality is that Greece probably needs to exit the EU sooner rather than later. The carnage in Greece will be horrific in the short term, but it will at least be confined to Greece alone. I can certainly sympathize with the plight of the Greek people in this scenario, but this was the outcome they voted on when they elected Syriza, and again when they voted 'no' this past week.

I could well be wrong about all of this, and truly hope that I am. this is just my humble opinion.

Please don't shoot the noob...

[TomF]

Just remember this: the Greeks understand math.

[NweakO]

http://deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws.english/videozone_ENG/1.2386232

[ebhead]

...and then there's China...

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2015/07/07/china-stock-market-crash_n_7747180.html?utm_hp_ref=canada

[JohnS]

Greece votes for bailout reforms

Greece's parliament voted early Saturday to accept economic reforms the government had rejected just a week ago, making a final desperate bid to secure billions in loans and stay in the euro.

The vote leaves the next step to Europe, which has said it wants to finalize a deal by Sunday.

Earlier this week, European leaders gave Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras an ultimatum: Convince us you're serious about putting Greek finances in order, or you're out of the eurozone.

With its vote, Greece is pledging to cut spending, raise taxes, and phase out tax discounts on some tourist islands, among many other things. Greece is also proposing changes to public pensions, such as raising the retirement age, and steps to improve tax collection.

But the Greek government has done multiple policy U-turns over the last few weeks.

And now it is asking for a third bailout, after receiving roughly 233 billion euros in rescue financing over the past five years from European and international partners.

The proposals approved by Greece Saturday look eerily similar to the ones previously tabled by eurozone leaders -- the same ones then rejected by the Greek prime minister just 10 days ago and by the Greek people in a referendum on Sunday.

Time is running out. Greece's plan will be considered by 28 heads of state in the European Union, meaning Europe's top leaders hold the key to any new bailout money.

There were lingering concerns that Greece will take the money, but won't deliver on its promises.

Slovakia's finance minister, Peter Kazimir summed up the situation poetically: "Listening to Greece government officials, one can wonder how quickly [a] caterpillar [can] turn into butterfly."

Greece wants its creditors to help it ease its enormous debt burden, but some European leaders deeply oppose debt relief. This opposition could kill any new Greek deal, causing the government to default on more debt and potentially go bankrupt in a matter of days.

On top of it all, Greece finances are far worse now than they were just weeks ago. Some skeptics wonder whether a third bailout will be enough to help Greece out of its economic hole.

The IMF recently estimated Greece will need at least another 50 billion euros ($55 billion). But analysts say the figure will be much higher since the IMF analysis was conducted before Greek banks were forced to shut down, wreaking even more havoc on the economy.

Here are some of the key proposals that the Greeks are putting forward, which are designed to raise more tax revenue and cut back on spending:

--Streamline the sales tax system and raise sales taxes on Greek islands, which currently receive discounts.

--Clamp down on income tax avoidance and phase out preferential tax treatment for farmers.

--Raise the corporate tax rate to 28% from 26%.

--Slash military spending.

--Overhaul the pension system in a bid to discourage people from quickly tapping government pensions. For many Greeks, the new retirement age will be raised to 67.

Source: http://money.cnn.com/2015/07/10/news/economy/greece-bailout-europe-deal/index.html?iid=hp-toplead-dom

[CaptainQuintero]

The sad thing about this is the normal Greek people are in serious trouble. Hospitals with no drugs or supplies etc and none of the solutions are for the benefit of the average Greek, its all about cooking the books so the EU political system survives.

It's the ultimate game of politicians gutting and slashing for their own benefit, I feel so sorry for the people there.

The issue isn't going away whatever is agreed, but the books will look better and the trillion dollar political system and it's slimy politicians survives, the people who all of this great lumbering corrupt machine is supposed to serve are thrown to the dogs.

The sooner the political EU project fails the better for the actual people all over the continent.

[stigmata]

They will overcome. Make no mistake!

But Europe the way it is today will be dead within a decade even without Greece.

[JackFNQ]

its all about cooking the books so the EU political system survives.

Margarot Thatcher foresaw the problems of a common currency, that have now come about. Strong economies benefiting from lower than otherwise exchange rate(Germany), the weaker countries getting hammered by being unable to devalue their currency(Greece). Fortunately GB kept out of the EURO mess. Do you think Germany would put up with a >60% youth unemployment rate.

The unelected leaders in Brussels are the failure, not the Greek people, not the German people. Hypocritically the head of IMF Christine Lagarde pays no taxes working for an international org, but demands taxes to be increased and paid. Think about it, increasing taxes is deflationary. Greece has to default, and return to the drachma.

The world doesn't like reality, and will get everyone else to pay to keep the comfort going.

[Smallclub]

But Europe the way it is today will be dead within a decade even without Greece.

What do you mean by "will be dead"?

[TomF]

An interesting article illustrating that the Greeks are not entirely blameless in this mess. NYPost Article.

The NY Post is hardly a credible source of information...just sayin'...

[Fuzz]

Just goes to show that Greece is not willing to face reality. The govt wastes money on a referendum, receives a resounding "NO", then back flips and now wants to accept the original deal. So you've wasted 2 weeks and god knows how much money on a pointless referendum.

[JackFNQ]

Just goes to show that Greece is not willing to face reality. The govt wastes money on a referendum, receives a resounding "NO", then back flips and now wants to accept the original deal. So you've wasted 2 weeks and god knows how much money on a pointless referendum.

You miss an important point. The bureaucrats expected a yes vote. It was meant to be a rubber stamp, with any subsequent adverse blame to fall back on the people's "choice". The finance minister is a smart guy - he resigned, so the puppets can now do their thing. They were surprised that the 'no' made it. It is the Unelected and Unremovable EU fascists' arrogance in Brussels that acts autocratically. Recently the German high court judged that certain actions of Brussels was unconstitutional to Germany and its sovereigny; the Brussel reply - no it isn't, end of discussion. Now Brussels wants their own EU army.

The Greeks were heroic in their NO vote. They put their children's future ahead of their retirement. Unlike Scotland's independence vote where the seniors continue to devour their young - Just like the disgrace that is Australian housing affordability, ie welfare for the rich neg gearing and superannuation tax perk, etc.

By Winston Churchill losing the 1945 election, his vision of a free and democratic Europe was pushed aside by the old power/money to what is to become a fascist federation of Biblical proportions. The Euro itself is designed to fail. When there is capitulation of entire countries they can ' "save" Europe' by ....

They just can't yet trigger a soveriegn bond default in what could be a quadrillion dollar derivatives market. (Who knows the exact amount, not like weapons of mass financial destruction needs to be regulated or anything . Far more important to grope grandma in her wheelchair at the airport, and ensure that your personal dignity, liberty and freedoms are taken away.) That is why they cannot allow Greece to default. Most financial derivitives are insurance hedging regarding interest rates. To give you some perspective, bond markets are two to three times bigger than global stock markets combined. So yeah, Greece defaulting is a big deal. Some would rather see the Greeks in absolute destitution, destruction and starving in the streets than allow a default. Just like they turned a 'no' into a 'yes', they are busy redefing the word 'default'. Why stop there, while they are at it they can redefine the words, 'stealing' , and 'democracy'. The ministry of truth are on it.

Don't get suckered into wedge politics, 'it's the Greeks fault they retire too young, or are tax evaders...' Nor put hate on ordinary Germans. Whilst Greeks MUST live within their means after a default, and Germany's advantageous ride will be addressed; the EURO is flawed in it's design, and ultimately the EU Brussels has no accountability to the people, not even its nation states.

Don't expect the presstitutes to inform you, especially when the puppets aren't there to serve the PEOPLE of their nation. Greece has shown through this 'vote' that there is no democracy in Europe. Maybe those of you in the US should do some research on the number of executive orders that have been made in recent times.

The sheeple are only allowed to choose the gate that is put before them. Doesn't really matter how many times they walk around the pen.

[CaptainQuintero]

It just goes to show that the last five years of shocking austerity in Greece has been for nothing, literally nothing. When that old man killed himself in Parliament square because he had nothing left, the austerity that caused that is going to pale in significance compared to the one coming. So in a few years time we will be in the same place as we are now but even worse, again.

The only way for the normal Greek people to live with any shred of quality of life is to default like Iceland did. Have a very hard few years of massively devalued currency, and slowly start to return to growth and live within their means.

The same people who were saying Iceland was going to cease to exist as a nation, that it was going to turn into a snowy African failed state are the ones who are saying Greece can't default now.

[OZCUBAN]

Makes you wonder how they got an Empire/ Civilisation going in the first place

The birth place of democracy has become the home of hypocracy so sad, and the very day joe's are the ones that will suffer the most