Need help understanding a best/worst cigar mindset

[PigFish]

PigFish, may I call you Piggy? As I said in my my previous post- "...I will have no horse in this race." Egging me on will serve no purpose.

What prompted me to post my thoughts was your statement- "I cannot taste brand profiles! ... there are very few who can based on actual evidence produced every time a blind taste is done."

Those remarks interested me and in an attempt to actually answer/address the question you pose a larger blind testing group would be the only way to hope to deliver valid results, thus the better odds I proposed to encourage more participants in your contest. That contest now appears to be a more personal one on one winner takes all mismatch- the term "mismatch" referring to the original odds, NOT you and Smallclub's respective heavyweight status on FOH.

At the time i posted I was enjoying am intoxicatingly good Upmann Mag. 46. This particular stick exhibited the classic tried and true Mag. 46 flavor profile, certainly nothing like a Connie No. 1- same brand, but more importantly light years different than a Siglo IV- same vitola. Perhaps I overstepped my gentlemanly bounds by proposing any alteration to your original challenge, but I'm afraid I must blame my misstep on my drunkeness following the Mag. 46. My otherwise good judgement had been clouded.

When I open my humidor to choose the evenings smoke I look in the box at the various brands and vitolas and chose who's next #1 by brand flavor profile and #2 by vitola. One day I choose one brand, the next I usually choose a different brand. I've evolved over 20 + years to this method of selection, but perhaps it's all folly. Maybe choosing based on which band artwork and/or coloration would be equally effective in providing smoking satisfaction??

Piggy, on a serious note- Can you really not differentiate between a CORO and a PSD4?

YOU cannot call me Piggy...!

-LOL I am just kidding of course! You can call me Ray if you prefer, Piggy if you wish!

Mate I was looking put a halt on what I took as comments about my character. While this is a forum and you can post what you want to post, I am not looking for peer review or the distraction of some parliamentary procedure on the contest. If one wants to take part, take part. You want to criticize it, have at it but I am going to toss it back your lap... You an see how I roll here. If you want to take part in my project, take some of the risk of the participants, or start your own!

I am not running a scientific experiment here. I am responding to what a member wrote. In my mind, as I stated earlier, the blind tastes have been done. I know of many, on this board and off of it. All the evidence I need to see has be demonstrated already. As said, I am not conducting an experiment, I am looking for those willing to make their case and not use the proprietor of the forum as a backstop.

I am not looking to prove anything. I was looking to see who really believes in what they preach. I don't believe in what they preach. I see this as a digital argument. It is 0 or 1 in my book. The profiles are existent or nonexistent. They are not sometimes existent, that is ludicrous! If they are sometime existent, I hope that anyone can understand that makes them not quantifiable, unreliable, and therefore nonexistent. That is my point.

Frankly, I was not 'egging you on.' I was asking a guy (you) to give the underdog (my perception of your position) a leg up if you felt it was necessary. As stated. This is not about being fair to an outsider (a nonparticipant). It is about being fair with the guy who takes a position and believes in it.

If I told you I could shoot a course of trap or ***** and not miss, I would not expect you to give me a handicap. The same goes with a 300 game of bowling or par at golf. If I say I can do it, I believe I can do it and need no assistance. I offered assistance anyway. I reduced the win percentage from 100% to 90%. That is more than generous to the guy who is confident.

I used to shoot ***** and trap without error quite often. If I was going to run my mouth before shooting, I would take the bet without outsiders telling others it was not fair to me.

The guy who drinks Pepsi, I imagine can distinguish between 12 cans of it and Coke. That is a brand profile (IMHO). The smoker of cigarettes can tell his brand from the next box on the shelf. Brand profile, as I see it, is brand profile. It either exists or it does not...

To your last question. The answer is no! There is a reason why the answer is no. The last time I smoked a Cohiba in a blind contest, it was so bad that I thought it might have been non-Cuban. I remember the experience vividly and frankly I was embarrassed over my assessment of the cigar. The cigar... made me appear like I had never smoked a Cohiba before! That was not my fault, it was the Cubans' fault. If they cannot consistently make a Cohiba taste like a Cohiba that mean there is no Cohiba taste... Saying that Cohiba taste exists in some Cohibas is a cluster ****, and I hope you can admit that... The question is, at what point does the average smoker stop covering for the Cubans' lack of interest and quality control? At what point do you finally say, "Man Cohibas don't taste enough like Cohibas any more?" Can you identify Cohibas 100% of the time? The question is back on you. I have admitted that I cannot. Are you willing to bet on it? -LOL (this is rhetorical I am not offering further challenges)

That's it!

Order 5 Cohibas and 5 PSD4's from Rob and ask him to scramble them up... Better yet, have him scramble up 4 or more robustos and test yourself. I should not have to challenge you.

Lastly, I think the placebo effect is huge in cigars. I think most of us have it or had it. I no longer have it. I no longer expect a brand profile, nor do I look for it. Frankly, the discovery that it does not exist has made cigar smoking much more enjoyable for me. It has allowed me to enjoy a cigar at a different level. I just want to smoke it and enjoy it. It is a liberating mindset. While it appears that I am just raising hell, I am in reality proposing a liberating mindset.

Like I stated, I am a minority opinion here. Take it for what it is worth.

Cheers... -Ray

[Colt45]

If this is not good clean fun.....

You know Ray, I am not the most articulate forum user, but I am willing, for better or worse. to live with what I post. I cannot, and have never, been willing to speak for Rob or any forum member, but in my opinion, he is being put in he middle of this (if he's been made aware, apols). He may be happy to get involved.....

How many recall Shortsqueeze and Jimmy's "challenge"?

Link

They took care of it between themselves, and it was a fun and educational exercise. If keeping it on the up and up is a question, that does not reflect upon Rob or the forum.

I am on board with Cuban cigar inconsistency. I'm also on board with Cuban cigar "brand recipes". I'm an advocate of Cuban cigar competition. I "know" nothing.

[mash]

He may not know about this thread lol

He's on here several times a day and responds to everything else. I think his silence means something different.

[PigFish]

You know Ray, I am not the most articulate forum user, but I am willing, for better or worse. to live with what I post. I cannot, and have never, been willing to speak for Rob or any forum member, but in my opinion, he is being put in he middle of this (if he's been made aware, apols). He may be happy to get involved.....

How many recall Shortsqueeze and Jimmy's "challenge"?

Link

They took care of it between themselves, and it was a fun and educational exercise. If keeping it on the up and up is a question, that does not reflect upon Rob or the forum.

I am on board with Cuban cigar inconsistency. I'm also on board with Cuban cigar "brand recipes". I'm an advocate of Cuban cigar competition. I "know" nothing.

I hear you my friend. I get what you say. I would like to use him as a vendor here, if he is willing. I am going to disappear from this thread in short order as my week gets started. I cannot deal with the logistics of it and figured he might for the fee and the fun of it. I could be wrong.

I never wanted him to be a stakeholder or to take one position or another. Your concern is respected and noted.

-R

[El Presidente]

Rob (our host) has initiated a number of threads and polls about flavor profiles, difference between marcas, etc.

According to you he's crazy and an elitist?

Absolutely!

However I would be surprised if many who has spent a bit of time around Cuban cigars couldn't tell the difference between a BBF and a SC La Punta.

I am late to the thread. Apologies but a few things going on in the past few days.

For those deciding it is a thread to throw a few cheapshots at each other. Go find another sandpit (somewhere else) and leave the grown ups alone.

Piggy I am happy to help in any way that illuminates the hobby.

Couple of points from the hip (touching on issues posted in the thread).

* Polls here have shown that there is a wide variety of taste among members. Given none of us has an identical palate, it is not rocket science.

* I put El Laguito as the most consistent producers of Cohiba not because they have better leaf or even know how. Simply because they have/had a great culture and love for Cohiba and each other.They work as a close knit family/team. I think it shows.

Again, happy to help out any exercise that is done in the right spirit.

[shlomo]

Since my previous post will probably get censored....

I would not be able to pick even 5 out of 10 other than through luck. Sure each Marco should have a specific profile, there is no denying that, but who is to say that Cuban quality control sticks diligently to the blends?

[bradbrennan]

Who is willing to sponsor SC for $25?

Cheers! -Piggy

I believe the odds are tough but if in good fun I'd like to offer $25 and even $50 if you don't get another offer to support this challenge.

I'm in for $25 Piggy.

All in fun, right!

This has become a very, very interesting debate indeed.

Gentleman's rules dictate that it is not up to those on the sidelines, with no stake in the contest to kwetsch about the terms. I applaud both gentleman and wish SC well in his endeavour!

We could make some side bets but maybe with a little better odds, like 7 out of 10?!

How many recall Shortsqueeze and Jimmy's "challenge"?

Link

I remember the Jimmy challenge...but in the end it was just pick the Cuban's from the NC's. I was hoping it would be more involved.

[leftimatic]

I believe the odds are tough but if in good fun I'd like to offer $25 and even $50 if you don't get another offer to support this challenge.

All in fun, right!

Always in good fun. To get to serious about this stuff would be just plain silly.

[RijkdeGooier]

Some more ideas after reading various replies and in an effort to make some sense out of it all maybe...

Regarding marca or rather linea profile.

1. I'd prefer lineas as i.e. Montecristo Open always have a different goal for taste profile than the Linea classica. To say nothing of Partagas which could be classified as it's own world.

2. Whether or not those taste profiles are met in a consistent manner and how consistently is the actual object of this thread.

3. If, as both Ray, ErikB, Schlomo and myself would seem to conclude the answer is no not sufficiently consistent at least, is there then any value in rating against a real or imaginary standard? On the other hand SC will try to see if he can amaze us all (I hope he succeeds, it would be an amazing feat).

4. Should we not consider each cigar a seperate entity to be enjoyed on it's own merits?

[leftimatic]

Terrific thread ! The information and opinion on cigars part at least

Makes one question their tastebuds for sure. I am thinking of giving my wife five or so of my cigars say some robustos. And getting her to deband and record them in some numerical type order and then pass me one every two or three days( my regular cigar smoking amount.) I can smoke and record what I find. I can't taste everything but I do notice or thought I noticed differences. I will pick whatever I have the most sizes of. May take a while, as most of my cigars are still in my OLH waiting for me to pony up the dough for a bigger cooler and some beads. Being relatively new to cigars in general this may help other new guys out. All in the name of science.

Just to see if I can guess what they are and if there is a true difference will be quite interesting. All have been purchased from Rob so no worries on quality here. I am on the fence with the whole thing, maybe this will knock me off.

[RijkdeGooier]

Great idea leftimatic!

[bradbrennan]

Makes one question their tastebuds for sure. I am thinking of giving my wife five or so of my cigars say some robustos. And getting her to deband and record them in some numerical type order and then pass me one every two or three days( my regular cigar smoking amount.) I can smoke and record what I find. I can't taste everything but I do notice or thought I noticed differences. I will pick whatever I have the most sizes of. May take a while, as most of my cigars are still in my OLH waiting for me to pony up the dough for a bigger cooler and some beads. Being relatively new to cigars in general this may help other new guys out. All in the name of science.

Just to see if I can guess what they are and if there is a true difference will be quite interesting. All have been purchased from Rob so no worries on quality here. I am on the fence with the whole thing, maybe this will knock me off.

This is what I'm enjoying most from our current Blind Tasting competition. But you're right, anybody can do this test at home.

[leftimatic]

Ok. I've had all day to think about this, and here's the plan. Instead of waiting around for me to get off my ass and get a bigger storage compartment I am going to order a sampler of petit coronas.... I think. I am kind of going back and forth with the corona gorda or the petit coronas. For one I haven't tried all the cigars they have in either, but I really want to see if I can pick a Punch Punch out of a line up. It tends to be the one that I like the most out of all that I have tried and it was my first and I really want to see if I could at least get one right out 8. But on the other hand the petit coronas have a RyJ in there and I have great confidence that I think I might be able to recognize the cherry chocolate flavour I have gotten before. Plus I happen to have a few of the same size at home already which I could double up a couple and round the count to ten. It would be interesting to see if it is possible to be wrong twice with same brand.

I am going to order up a sampler give it two months rest and dig in. The wife is going to take the bands off and replace them with numbered paper ones, their true identities locked away for safe keeping. Seeing as how I have only tried but a few of the brands and then only one or two sticks of some at best, I am going to wander through a bunch of reviews and website descriptions and see if they can help pull this off. I am banking on 25% correct. I dunno, we will see at the very least I might learn a thing or two. Best of all I get to smoke a bunch of cigars in the name of science!! It's a win win situation.

Now to let my beautiful, understanding, always there for me with understanding and non-judgemental opinions, helpful, darling wife in on my plans.

[BonVivant]

The problem always lies in the question of factories vs brands and vendors vs tobacconists - solve that and you are on the right track - just a suggestion

[mk05]

The problem always lies in the question of factories vs brands and vendors vs tobacconists - solve that and you are on the right track - just a suggestion

What does one do when he doesn't realize that the controls of the experiment are flawed to begin with, never mind the research bias.

[leftimatic]

Well I would imagine he would enjoy himself, maybe entertain a few others. Get off the side lines and participate, as pointless as it may seem. And maybe learn a little along the way. Most of all take the time to have some fun in an otherwise busy life.

I know I would.